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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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If (Gore / Nader) had won...?
    #1770259 - 08/01/03 06:12 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What would the last few years have been like?

Let's assume that the 9/11 attack would have still happened.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770279 - 08/01/03 06:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think...
taxes would be higher.
spending would be higher.
immigration would be higher.
guns ownership would have faced a brutal attack.
the internet would be renamed the GoreNet.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1770311 - 08/01/03 06:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

What about the war? I was just talking to this guy at a bar the other night, and he was all glad Bush was president because Gore is a pussy.

Which of them do youthink is the bigger pussy, and how do you think Gore would have handled Afghanistan, and Iraq?


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770325 - 08/01/03 06:25 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think that Afghanistan would still be in the hands of the Taliban, though there would have been some sort of strike against Al Queda camps, similar to the 98 missile strikes.

Iraq would not have been dragged back under the microscope, and would be much as it was in 2000. Sanctions reduced, maybe, since there was pressure in that direction from Russia and France.

This assumes Gore won.

Nader, hell I don't know. Ship them some Corvairs and hope they all die in traffic accidents.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770334 - 08/01/03 06:27 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Gore would have won the following would have happened.

After pulling Al out from under the desk of the oval office he would:

***Somehow blame the US for the Attacks on the WTC.
***Would NOT retaliate for the attacks
***Would enact the Patriot act but would call it the Environmental Act
***He would send 1000 peace keepers into afganistan
***He would replace those slaughtered 1000 peace keepers with 2000 peace keepers
***He would ask the kind terrorists to please stop the killings
***He would blast Isreal for defending themselves and use his office as an example of how to get things done.
***Raise taxes to help support the under-achievers
***figure out that there is no such thing as a lock box
***Tipper Gore would head the National Censorship Board
***Tipper Gore would be in and out of only the poshist loony bins
***Environmental concerns would be the top priority over the will of the people ie: saving the "hump backed tree spider"
***Make it illegal to build on your own property
***Ditches would be considered wetlands.

a whole lot of nothing productive.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1770341 - 08/01/03 06:30 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

You know, Gore has actually been to a war, whereas Bush is the next best thing to a draft dodger.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770347 - 08/01/03 06:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

so what?

going to war doesn't mean you can run one.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770375 - 08/01/03 06:41 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

F.D.R. was a damn good war leader, So was Churchill. Neither served in uniform. I don't think it's strictly relevant.



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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1770426 - 08/01/03 06:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Just my two cents, whether you want it or not. It IS a free country after all...America anyway...I cant say anything for you wierdos...

Quote:

***Somehow blame the US for the Attacks on the WTC.



You dont think the blatant disrespect that America has for the millions of people in the Middle East contributed to the feelings that made those hijackers so mad? America IS, at the very least, half responsible for the attacks.

Quote:

  ***Would NOT retaliate for the attacks



And what has Bush done to respond to the attacks? He continues to support Israel and breed MORE hatred of the U.S.. He took over Iraq, a country that has NOTHING to do with 9/11, by his admission.  He toppled the Taliban, creating a situation of extreme lawlessness and chaos in Afghanistan. Oh, yes. Revenge is sweet....

Now, I'm gonna skip a few, we may come back to them, time permitting.
Quote:

***He would blast Isreal for defending themselves and use his office as an example of how to get things done.




Yeah Inny. I see your point. Israel should in no way, shape, or form be responsible for the Palestinians they kill. Women? Children? Bah, they're just Muslims, right?  What about the right of THEM to defend themselves? Israel slaughters them INDISCRIMINATELY, and they do the same thing. But Israel has some sort of moral high ground? Bullshit...

Quote:

  ***Raise taxes to help support the under-achievers



Because god knows, helping those who are down on their luck should be a SIN!!!  Drug rehab programs suck, I know.  Oh, and feeding starving kids? That sucks too...Christ. Are you THAT heartless that you want to see LITTLE CHILDREN STARVE?
Quote:


***Environmental concerns would be the top priority over the will of the people ie: saving the "hump backed tree spider" 



Species are destroyed every day. Species that may very well hold the cures for thousands of diseases that kill MILLIONS.  When your "Hump-Backed Tree SPider" turns out to have the cure for AIDS in its venom, I want to see you justify destroying its habitat so you could raise your canadian geese, or whatever it is you do.
Quote:

***Make it illegal to build on your own property 



It's already illegal to build on your own property without a permit. They're called "Zoning Laws".  I'm not sure what your talking about here...I assume you mean watershed laws and the things? Refer to above reply...

Now, back to above...
Quote:

***He would replace those slaughtered 1000 peace keepers with 2000 peace keepers 



And maybe they would actually DO something. What have the troops there done? Drug harvests are through the roof, People live in constant fear...I feel like I'm repeating myself...

Consider that your daily enlightenment lesson...  :smile:


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlineshakta
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1770603 - 08/01/03 07:44 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Lesson in what? BS liberal tripe? :grin:


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1770622 - 08/01/03 07:49 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

>>>He would blast Isreal for defending themselves <<<

Maybe it's just my imagination, but it seems to me that Bush is being a little tougher on Israel than Clinton was. Something I approve of.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770632 - 08/01/03 07:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Oh reeeeeeeeally? please explain.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1770652 - 08/01/03 07:57 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)



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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1770679 - 08/01/03 08:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You dont think the blatant disrespect that America has for the millions of people in the Middle East contributed to the feelings that made those hijackers so mad? America IS, at the very least, half responsible for the attacks. 




nope, sorry.  not to blame at all. try again.

Quote:

And what has Bush done to respond to the attacks? He continues to support Israel and breed MORE hatred of the U.S




So siding with Isreal breeds hate?  wow that's great.  I oppose homocide bombings, i'd say that is hate.

Quote:

Yeah Inny. I see your point. Israel should in no way, shape, or form be responsible for the Palestinians they kill. Women? Children? Bah, they're just Muslims, right?




Homocide bombers target civilians, Isreal does not target them as a primary objective.  To say otherwise is wrong.
From your flip remark about them being Muslim: You have it in your thick yet empty skull that i have some sort of hatred towards Muslims. How many Muslims do you have contact with?  The ones that i am friends with would differ from your generalization.  As with most groups out East i despise the radical groups, you may support them, i'd rather not.

Quote:

He toppled the Taliban, creating a situation of extreme lawlessness and chaos in Afghanistan.




It would probably do you good to actually know what the fuck you are talking about.  Women can now go out in public in order to get an education in Afganistan, women have rights now.  Afganistan is better today than it has been in our life time.  People aren't being tortured for play anymore either.  But i see you support them as well. Good job :thumbup:

Quote:

Israel slaughters them INDISCRIMINATELY, and they do the same thing. But Israel has some sort of moral high ground? Bullshit... 




Yeah Isreal goes into shopping malls and blows things up INDISCRIMINATELY....uh wait a minute, i meant the radical Palastinians.

Quote:

Because god knows, helping those who are down on their luck should be a SIN!!! 




So someone who can work that decides not to is someone down on their luck? Cry me a fuckin' river.

Quote:

Oh, and feeding starving kids?




What the fuck are you talking aboot?

Quote:

hat sucks too...Christ. Are you THAT heartless that you want to see LITTLE CHILDREN STARVE? 




Yes you figured it out my mission in life is to make sure every child in the world starves to death,  Get your head out of your ass.

Quote:

Species are destroyed every day. Species that may very well hold the cures for thousands of diseases that kill MILLIONS. When your "Hump-Backed Tree SPider" turns out to have the cure for AIDS in its venom, I want to see you justify destroying its habitat so you could raise your canadian geese, or whatever it is you do.





Species die off everyday naturally, but telling someone they cannot develope their own land because there is a possibility that some Gnat might land on it is not only laughable but pathetic.  You can discuss all the "woulda, coulda, shoulda' you want but when the smoke clears it's just a steaming pile of BS.

Quote:

It's already illegal to build on your own property without a permit. They're called "Zoning Laws". 




No shit genius, that's not what i was referring to, besides a permit is free in my city.

Quote:

I'm not sure what your talking about here...I assume you mean watershed laws and the things? Refer to above reply...





go back and read my humpback spider analogy and you'll figure it out....hopefully.

Quote:

And maybe they would actually DO something.




yeah because we all know how successful our peace keepers are...Correction, the 2000 peace keepers would be replaced with 4000  peace keepers after the last 2000 were slaughtered.

Quote:

Drug harvests are through the roof, People live in constant fear...I feel like I'm repeating myself...




and none of it makes sense...huh.

Quote:

Consider that your daily enlightenment lesson... 




great a lecture from a self rightous libbie.  I'm not impressed. 

With all that said i was making light of the possibility of Gore becoming president.  Actually i don't think he'd come out from under the desk.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770690 - 08/01/03 08:07 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

this is another:

Bush just doesn't get it

The US president has allowed himself to be comprehensively bamboozled by Ariel Sharon, says Simon Tisdall. Peace is as far away as ever

Thursday July 31, 2003

Not a little hope attached to this week's talks in Washington between the US president, George Bush, and the Israeli prime minister, Ariel Sharon.
Violence between Israelis and Palestinians has fallen sharply in recent weeks. Both sides have spoken in positive terms about the prospect of peace; both have made gestures, albeit mostly verbal, towards attaining that goal.

Not a little fear attended the talks, too. The fear, for Israelis and Palestinians but also for the many others who yearn for a just end to this interminable conflict, is that without urgent, substantive steps forward - along the lines laid out by the international "road map" - a golden opportunity may be lost.

Mr Bush put a characteristically optimistic spin on his discussions with Mr Sharon and, last week, with the Palestinian prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas. "I think we're making pretty good progress in a short period of time," he said.

He might think that is the case. He might wish it to be so. But there are three basic grounds for challenging Mr Bush's rosy judgment.

The first cause for concern arises from the sight of Mr Sharon, standing alongside the US leader, reiterating in uncompromising terms his preconditions for negotiations on the fundamental issues that separate the two peoples.

If anything, Mr Sharon hardened his position. He made no mention, as he has in the past, of Israel's acceptance of a future Palestinian state; he made no reference, as before, to the unsustainability of the occupation of Palestinian land; and perhaps most ominously of all, he omitted all direct reference to the "road map".

"I wish to move forward with a political process with our Palestinian neighbours," Mr Sharon said. "And the right way to do that is only after a complete cessation of terror, violence and incitement, full dismantlement of terror organisations, and completion of the reform process of the Palestinian Authority."

The key word in this sentence is "after". What Mr Sharon was saying, indeed demanding, was that Mr Abbas disarm, disband, and possibly lock up, leaders and members of militant organisations such as Hamas and Islamic Jihad, before Israel does anything substantive by way of reciprocal measures.

Mr Sharon appeared to anticipate failure, even to expect it. "We are thankful for every hour of increased quiet," he said. "At the same time, we are concerned that this welcome quiet will be shattered any minute as a result of the continued existence of terror organisations which the Palestinian Authority is doing nothing to eliminate."

His remarks, in a prepared statement, also seemed to imply that Mr Abbas must achieve complete political control within the authority, including ousting Yasser Arafat from any position of real influence or executive authority for good, before Israel would act.

Mr Sharon is asking for the impossible, as he must know very well. For the second reason for challenging Mr Bush's optimistic assessment is that Mr Abbas has neither the political nor military power to satisfy these Israeli demands at this stage, even if he were fully minded to do so.

His position remains weak, as is to be expected after only a few, controversial months presiding over a government divided and impecunious after years of intifada. He cannot issue fiats or make demands without risking his own downfall, or worse, an inter-Palestinian conflict. If he makes promises he cannot deliver, his credibility will be undermined among his supporters, opponents, and among the Israeli public.

He has no choice but to tread carefully. He needs real Israeli concessions, not mere gestures. So far they have not been offered.

Mr Abbas is already accused by some of his own people of collaborating with the Israelis, of being a dupe or a stooge. They say his policy of engagement, before and since the Aqaba summit, has brought few tangible results. They say the handful of prisoner releases, the charades over the uprooting of "unauthorised outposts", and the very limited military withdrawal, are proof not of Mr Sharon's good faith but of his duplicity.

They say, in short, that Mr Abbas is being taken for a ride, that the Americans are not really pushing Mr Sharon, and indeed, that Mr Sharon is to a lesser extent taking Mr Bush for a ride, too.

It would be comforting to reject all this and say it is merely the product of years of bloodshed and abiding distrust, that all will be well in the end.

But when Mr Sharon in Washington went on to defy the US president, to his face, over Israel's construction of the West Bank security wall, and to ignore the road map's requirement for a freezing of settlement activities, Palestinian suspicions that he is engaged in the old game of talking peace while seizing more and more Palestinian land understandably deepen.

In terms of the bottom line, all Mr Sharon committed Israel to do was to take unspecified "additional steps ... if calm prevails and we witness the dismantlement of terror organisations". This is no commitment at all. And still Mr Bush kept smiling.

In truth, Mr Bush himself is the third reason why optimism seems misplaced at the end of this week's talks.

He says things are moving forward quickly. But he ignores the fact that he wasted two years after he came into office, during which time the conflict grew ever more embittered and entrenched. The opportunity for action is now very limited, partly as a result.

Mr Bush says he and his advisers are committed to the "road map" and making peace work, in line with the timetable for establishing a Palestinian state by 2005. But in reality, they are massively distracted by Iraq, where problems mount, and by broader domestic controversies that are building as the US election year approaches.

Enforced regime change in Iraq is not facilitating the Arab-Israeli peace process, as Mr Bush has frequently claimed it would. If anything, the controversial US policy is obstructing it, just as it did for different reasons before Saddam Hussein's downfall.

Mr Bush also seems quite happy to be almost blatantly bamboozled by Mr Sharon, who is a much more wily and subtle politician that the former Texas governor will ever be accused of being. The Israeli leader must be privately delighted to have a US counterpart who is so easy to handle.

The way Mr Sharon flatters him so outrageously suggests just a smidgin of an older man's condescension.

But Mr Bush's biggest blind spot stems not from his vanity, but from his utter, simplistic determination to cast the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in the fundamental, black and white, for-us-or-against-us terms of his "war on terror".

"Those who want to destroy the peace process through terrorist activities must be dealt with," he said this week, "There will be no peace if terrorism flourishes... The rise of a peaceful Palestinian state and the long-term security of the Israeli people both depend on defeating the threat of terrorist groups." He went on: "The Palestinian Authority must undertake sustained, targeted and effective operations to confront those engaged in terror."

In other words, Mr Bush seems to have bought, in its entirety, Mr Sharon's Machiavellian proposition that any act of "terrorism", however loosely defined, may constitute justification for more foot-dragging by Israel, or even for a de facto suspension of the entire peace process. On this basis, logically, terrorists who oppose the "road map" process (like those politicians in Israel and the US who also oppose it) will always win.

For Mr Bush, the definition of "terrorist" appears to be almost infinitely expandable in the Israel-Palestine context, as in Iraq and elsewhere.

There is no apparent thought given to notions of legitimate self-defence, or deterrence of prior aggression, or struggle against the most provocative breaches of international law - or simply, against the daily theft of land, liberty and livelihood. His few, supposedly balancing phrases about Palestinian rights and Israeli obligations are hopelessly inadequate.

Mr Bush, it seems, just does not get it. He cannot be bothered to undertake the hard grind or to work the issues, as Bill Clinton did, preferring instead to grandstand, to clutch for credit and compliments and for "leadership moments" that look good on television. As a result, he is dangerously, and sadly, off the pace. For Mr Abbas, his complacency could be fatal. For Mr Sharon, it is a gift.

When a few Palestinian extremists finally run out of patience, or when somebody gets killed by the Israeli army, maybe by accident; and when somebody else retaliates and then, if and when the ceasefire collapses, the two sides turn on each other again, it will not be enough to say it is all the "terrorists'" fault. It will not be enough to shrug and say "we tried".

Having finally, belatedly taken charge of the peace process, Mr Bush is already running out of time and squandering rare, hard-won momentum. Before our eyes, the fragile hope of peace is being dissipated. But the US president, now off on holiday to his ranch in Texas, does not seem to realise it.



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Edited by atomikfunksoldier (08/01/03 08:08 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1770700 - 08/01/03 08:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

of course...time will tell!


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1770714 - 08/01/03 08:17 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That article was all spin and speculation, more of just one person's observarions than anything substantial.

Besides, my arguement is that Bush is doing at least as much as Clinton as far as standing up to Israel. No, I don't think he does enough but he doesn't seem to have lowered the bar any.


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1770814 - 08/01/03 08:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yeah, the washington times is reeeeeeeeeeeeallly credible.

you do know that the times is owned by reverend sung myung moon right?
who is "A virulently anticommunist, self-proclaimed messiah".

the Times is a total peice of shit, i personally, have had a one on one email discussion with one of its editors, and he was a total dogmatic peice of shit, who labelled anyone who protested anything as a "communist"

Moon is trying to enforce his beliefs on the world, its a safe bet than anything he owns is pure propaganda,


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Edited by atomikfunksoldier (08/01/03 08:44 PM)


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Offlineatomikfunksoldier
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1770833 - 08/01/03 08:53 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

here is a quote from the owner of the washington times; Rev. Sun Myung Moon:

"Fifteen years ago, when the world was adrift on the stormy waves of the Cold War, I established The Washington Times to fulfill God's desperate desire to save this world. Since that time, I have devoted myself to raising up The Washington Times, hoping that this blessed land of America would fulfill its world-wide mission to build a Heavenly nation."

http://www.unification.net/1997/970616.html


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: If (Gore / Nader) had won...? [Re: atomikfunksoldier]
    #1770936 - 08/01/03 09:43 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

to answer the original question, gore certainly would not have capitalized so much on the whole uber nationalist facist doublespeak pathos speeches. that's the whole thing: gore's smart, not hitler.

fucking facists die die die.

new slogan- - deomocrats: at least they aren't facist reactionaries.


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The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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mabus 2,756 51 02/23/04 10:05 AM
by Innvertigo
* Nader climbing in the polls
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mabus 2,283 38 03/16/04 11:29 AM
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* Ralph Nader will be on Coast to Coast am tonight 10pm PST ekomstop 553 7 09/26/04 11:11 AM
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* ralph nader...
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Annapurna1
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* Nader falls short of making California ballot luvdemshrooms 535 4 08/09/04 06:22 PM
by Learyfan
* Why I will vote for Ralph Nader Albino_Jesus 1,318 18 08/18/08 06:44 AM
by Albino_Jesus

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