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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Edame]
#1766008 - 07/31/03 12:43 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Edame said: I think that the mountain of first-hand accounts of concentration camps (both from survivors and Nazis) indicates that conditions were anything but normal.
EXACTLY! Now if 1 million Jews died under non-normal conditions, how did 1 million Germans die in POW camps? (Like I said the first five sites I found all confirmed 1 million German deaths in POW camps). Were the conditions there "normal", or were the allies also guilty of neglect?
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Meat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766055 - 07/31/03 12:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Uh your missing the point there satchmo. First of all the German POWS were given rations. Albiet there shelters were not the best they did have some. Second the gassing theory was only supposedly implemented in one camp because hilter was looking for a way to kill an assload of people at one time (like hundreds crowded into a decent sized room). Thirdly is most Jews were given molded bread and water toward the end. It wasnt like they were just sitting around they were forced to do hard manual labor. Most people had insufficient or very little clothing for the weather conditions in Poland and Austria (its a little cold there during the winter). They certainly werent given coats or warm blankets when Germany's army was invading Russia.
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Edame
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766057 - 07/31/03 12:55 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's working under the assumption that only 1 million Jews actually died, when the widely accepted figure is around 6 million.
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
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Rhizoid
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766067 - 07/31/03 12:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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The allies were guilty of both neglect and intentional murder. Especially the Soviet Union of course, but also the British, Americans and the French. But this doesn't change even one digit in the number of people who were murdered by the Nazis.
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Rhizoid]
#1766113 - 07/31/03 01:10 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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The part of revisionist theory that is the strongest is the exaggerated death count. In July 1990, the Polish government's Auschwitz State Museum, along with Israel's Yad Vashem Holocaust center, conceded that the four million figure (for Auschwitz) was a gross exaggeration, and references to it were accordingly removed from the Auschwitz monument. Israeli and Polish officials announced a tentative revised toll of 1.1 million Auschwitz dead. (link)
And these concessions were from people that would tend to lean on the high side of the death count.
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shakta
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766117 - 07/31/03 01:11 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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To be honest I really find this whole concept offensive. Here is a link to some of the testimony of Rudolf Hoess from Nuremberg. He oversaw Auschwitz, and personally estimated that 2.5 million people were murdered there alone. Anyone who doubts what the Nazis did are fooling themselves, or they are Nazis themselves. http://www.auschwitz.dk/Docs/new_page_3.htm
Edited by shakta (07/31/03 01:17 PM)
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Edame
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
#1766136 - 07/31/03 01:15 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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[edited by Edame, no longer needed]
-------------------- The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience. And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him. "Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.
Edited by Edame (07/31/03 01:19 PM)
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shakta
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Edame]
#1766140 - 07/31/03 01:17 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Done, I agree.
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Cornholio
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
#1766238 - 07/31/03 01:57 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: To be honest I really find this whole concept offensive.
So do a lot of people. That really confuses me. It seems like there is nothing wrong with an investigation of historical facts to try and determine what really happened. If it's nonsense, then the facts should prove it.
Quote:
Here is a link to some of the testimony of Rudolf Hoess from Nuremberg. He oversaw Auschwitz, and personally estimated that 2.5 million people were murdered there alone.
The link above talks about the Hoss testimony. It says he made this testimony in order to prevent his family from being taken to Siberia. Do I know this is true? Of course not. But it is now generally accepted that the 2.5 million figure he gave was a gross exaggeration, so it is very possible. Edit: Even the Auschwitz Museum website says that "only" 1.1 million died at Auschwitz, which is on the high end of current estimates.
Quote:
Anyone who doubts what the Nazis did are fooling themselves, or they are Nazis themselves.
Is it really wrong to ask questions?
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Edited by Cornholio (07/31/03 04:19 PM)
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shakta
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766279 - 07/31/03 02:07 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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It is not wrong to ask questions, but you seem to be taking this 'evidence' you have found as fact. Just because some revisionist Nazis say that the numbers were overblown doesn't make it so man. They can trot out their 'experts' all day long and it will not change the truth. Read some more of the testimony from that site and get back to me if you really think it was all just bullshit that was grossly exagerated. Some estimates actually put the total dead at over 12,000,000. The reasoning being all of the children that would have been born and not reported.
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Cornholio
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
#1766382 - 07/31/03 02:42 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: It is not wrong to ask questions, but you seem to be taking this 'evidence' you have found as fact.
Here's a few things I said: "while I don't know if it (revisionism) is correct or not, the argument is surprisingly sound" "Like I said, I'm not saying the revisionists are correct, just that their arguments are surprisingly sound." "The part of revisionist theory that is the strongest is the exaggerated death count." You would be correct in assuming that I'm taking the exaggerated death count to be fact, because most people on both sides involved in the debate have agreed that 6 million is too high (however, this number is still being used by the people who refuse to participate in the debate based on anti-Semitic grounds). The fact that the Auschwitz State Museum even removed their plaque commemorating 4 million dead is very strong evidence of the exaggerations, wouldn't you say? But don't trust my link about this. My link was taken from a revisionist site. Do your own search and you will see that it is true. Or see this link from the Auschwitz Museum's own website showing that they did indeed revise their death count down to 1.1 million (and they are probably very biased).
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shakta
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766409 - 07/31/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was talking about the number of dead specifically. So at this one camp alone it is estimated that 1.1 to 1.5 million were executed in the showers? If so, I think it is safe to say that many more were executed elsewhere. Maybe 6 million is a high number, and maybe it isn't. Neither one of us really know for sure. The fact remains that the Nazis wanted to exterminate them all.
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Cornholio
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
#1766440 - 07/31/03 02:59 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: The fact remains that the Nazis wanted to exterminate them all.
Then why didn't they do it? It would have been easy, as they already had everyone rounded up in the concentration camps. I agree, we can't know for sure, but that's why it's a subject that should be open for debate.
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shakta
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766450 - 07/31/03 03:01 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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They were well on their way to doing it. A couple of things stopped them. The end of the war was one. The other was the fact that they used some of them for slave labor. Namely the ones they didn't execute.
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Rhizoid
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766521 - 07/31/03 03:16 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
You would be correct in assuming that I'm taking the exaggerated death count to be fact, because most people on both sides involved in the debate have agreed that 6 million is too high (however, this number is still being used by the people who refuse to participate in the debate based on anti-Semitic grounds).
Too high for what? 6 million is an estimate rounded to the nearest million. The exact number is not known. If the estimate rounded to two significant digits is 5.7 million (a number I just made up), and if it has a 25% margin of error (another number I just made up) in either direction, then that unknown true number of victims could be anywhere between 4.6 million and 7.1 milllion. This is how science handles numerical estimates, and every serious researcher knows it. It's an estimate, just like so many other estimates. Many people besides jews were murdered in the gas chambers, but the Holocaust revisionists seem to be extremely hung up on the exact number of jews. What's a jew? Did everyone who the nazis considered a jew count as a jew in every pre- and postwar census? Do the revisionists care about such subtleties?
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
#1766525 - 07/31/03 03:17 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
shakta said: Here is a link to some of the testimony of Rudolf Hoess from Nuremberg. He oversaw Auschwitz, and personally estimated that 2.5 million people were murdered there alone. Anyone who doubts what the Nazis did are fooling themselves, or they are Nazis themselves.
shakta said: So at this one camp alone it is estimated that 1.1 to 1.5 million were executed in the showers?
See, the revisionsists have convinced people (yourself included?) that the numbers are exaggerated. I'd say that fact alone gives them some credibility!
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shakta
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
#1766564 - 07/31/03 03:25 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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Bullshit! I was just posting what that bastard said at his trial.
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Cornholio
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Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
#1766582 - 07/31/03 03:30 PM (20 years, 5 months ago) |
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