Home | Community | Message Board


MRCA Tyroler Gluckspilze
Please support our sponsors.

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Jump to first unread post. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Holocaust Revisionist Theory
    #1764528 - 07/31/03 01:08 AM (14 years, 3 hours ago)

About a month ago, I read an article saying that anyone who is a Holocaust Revisionist is anti-Semitic.  I didn't know what a Holocaust Revisionist was, so I did some research and came across the following article:

"The Holocaust Controversy:  The Case For Open Debate"

This is a fascinating article about Holocaust Revisionism, and while I don't know if it is correct or not, the argument is surprisingly sound.


HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

"Holocaust revisionism is the rejection of the conventional history of the Holocaust in favor of some or all of the following claims:

1.  There was no specific order by Adolf Hitler or other top Nazi officials to exterminate the Jews, although their incarceration in concentration camps and use as slave labor in factories had that effect.
2.  The Nazis did not use gas chambers to mass murder Jews.
3.  The figure of six million Jewish deaths is an irresponsible exaggeration.


Holocaust revisionism is distinct from Holocaust denial, the assertion that the Holocaust never happened at all. Holocaust revisionists see themselves as part of a tradition of historical revisionism - the reexamination of widely-accepted historical theories.

Holocaust revisionism is widely considered in the West to be anti-Semitic and is not supported by any officially approved, tenured, or government funded historians."

Interestingly, if you are from Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Belgium, Italy, Sweden or Israel, your Government has made it illegal to take the side of the revisionists, as it is considered a "hate crime" against the Jewish people, so be careful what you post here!    :oogle:


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1764646 - 07/31/03 01:55 AM (14 years, 3 hours ago)

And to get people interested in this, the Institute for Historical Review (IHR) will pay "$50,000 to anyone who can prove that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz Concentration Camp during World War II."  :eek:

This reward was first offered in 1979, and no one has been able to claim it yet.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1764656 - 07/31/03 01:59 AM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

Just find it a little hard to get away from the testimonies from jews about the gas chambers. How do the revisionists get round that?

EDIT: Just read the article - they claim they made it all up.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Xlea321]
    #1764688 - 07/31/03 02:10 AM (14 years, 2 hours ago)

That's discussed in the article I referenced. It's also discussed here.

Like I said, I'm not saying the revisionists are correct, just that their arguments are surprisingly sound.

EDIT: I just read your EDIT. The revisionists point out that very few eyewitnesses actually claim to have seen gas chambers. They say almost all the survivors believed the gas chambers existed because rumors were spread throughout the camps that the people who were taken away were being sent to gas chambers. So if they believed people were being taken off to the gas chambers, then I don't know if they're making it up or not when they said that's what happened.


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (07/31/03 05:35 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1765380 - 07/31/03 09:40 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Sorry man, I think it is lunacy. Hitler wanted to exterminate all the Jews.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 12 days, 10 hours
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
    #1765481 - 07/31/03 10:39 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

And you know this because you have studied history which revisionist history disagrees with. Isnt that kind of the whole point? Unless of course you are privy to sources outside of those which the rest of the world refers to?!

(Im not agreeing or disagreeing with the revisionist theory by the way?)


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 13 years, 2 months
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: GazzBut]
    #1765509 - 07/31/03 10:57 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

To me, it is along the same lines as the people that believe we never landed on the moon. I can see why Germans don't want to believe this though. They want to make believe they didn't do these things, so they can feel better about themselves. I do think the revisionists are rooted in antisemetic ideals generally, the rest are just conspiracy nuts. This is just my opinion of course.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1765638 - 07/31/03 12:08 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

My Grandmother escaped from a train going to the Auschwitz Concentration Camp. The reason they stated she was on there is:

A: she didn't have her papers with her
B: She looked like a Jew

What's odd is that she is 100% German.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1765669 - 07/31/03 12:21 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Right, but the revisionists don't deny the existence of Concentration Camps. They just deny that there was a specific order to exterminate the Jews.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: silversoul7]
    #1765698 - 07/31/03 12:40 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

They just deny that there was a specific order to exterminate the Jews.




wow, there's more evidence that there were these things (first hand accounts) than there were evidence of WMD, that's weird. I think it happened and from everything that i've read and learned (unless it was all one big lie) points me in that direction. These are the same people that think we never landed on the moon.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Offlinegnrm23
Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 08/30/99
Posts: 6,481
Loc: n. e. OH, USSA
Last seen: 24 days, 7 hours
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1765797 - 07/31/03 01:25 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

my uncle was with allied (US) ground forces during the drive into germany...
usually the letters from the troops to the folks back home were heavily censored...
but the letters from allied forces who liberated the death camps were NOT censored by the army brass...
there were masses of people who were barely-living skeletons... and there were stacks of bodies like cordwood waiting to be burned... and there were cyklon B poison gas dipsensers set up to gas the "showers"... and the shoes and clothes and jewelry and gold teeth and soap-making facilities (to use the fat from the rendered bodies & the ashes as well...) indicated a long-running operation...
no, not all victims were jews... and not all camp inmates were immediately liquidated... but the camps were indeed death camps... and the motto "arbeit macht frei" was as black a joke as any ever penned...
millions were indeed killed... and the majority were indeed jews...
hitler also killed: gypsies, jehovah's witnesses, slavs, homosexuals, communists, mentally ill, feeble-minded, resisting (loudly protesting) christians (lutherans, catholics, reform, etc...), and several others groups as well, but the jews were the number one target...)
~
of course, it is almost certain that stalin killed many more people (nominal civilians) than hitler did, but... who speaks for the 25 million slaughtered ukranian farmers who resisted collectivization of their farms, or uzbeks, or armenians, or baltic state nationals, or "trotskyites"... 'cause they were all "russian citizens" and it was strictly an internal affair...
~
~


--------------------
old enough to know better
not old enough to care


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,728
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1765832 - 07/31/03 01:36 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

These are the same people that think we never landed on the moon.




Nope, maybe these groups overlap, but there is a difference: a lot of the momentum behind Holocaust revisionism is carried by neo-nazis who have a very specific political agenda rather than a concern about historical accuracy or just simple any-conspiracy-is-true bandwagonism like the moon landing deniers.

If the neo-nazis weren't a factor, this "revisionism" would just be a marginal academic thing. This political aspect is also the reason why Noam Chomsky felt the need to defend one of the neo-nazi revisionists, Robert Faurisson, even though Chomsky himself is as far from being a nazi as any one of us. But since Chomsky was so totally and utterly wrong in his own revisionism of the Khmer Rouge Holocaust, he feels the need to support others who are equally wrong about the Nazi Holocaust. Life is strange sometimes, isn't it?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: shakta]
    #1765838 - 07/31/03 01:38 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps you're right. But after reading discussion boards devoted solely to this topic, it appears that both sides agree that 6 million deaths is indeed an exaggeration, and one million is probably a more accurate number. The six million figure simply subtracts the number of Jews alive in Europe a few years after the war from those alive in Europe several years before the war. It ignores that the Jewish population in America, Israel, and other countries outside of Europe had increased by almost six million in this period of time, as a result of a new Exodus. Thus, those who had left Europe were simply declared to be Holocaust victims. That error alone gives credibility to revisionists, even if they wrong that there was no official policy to exterminate the Jews, and that the gas chambers never existed.

An interesting point about the holocaust is that so many people died of starvation and disease rather than gas chambers. Look at Anne Frank and her family. If the killing machines were so efficient, why did they all die of typhus? Her dad even survived the concentration camps.

Here is an even more interesting point: The allied survival rate in German POW camps is estimated to be 98%. The German survival rate in allied POW camps is estimated to be 80%. In other words, approximately one million Germans died in allied POW camps - the same numer as the Jews that died in German concentration camps!!! Was it allied policy to exterminate the Germans??? It seems logical that we?d happy if there was a distraction to keep this statistic under wraps.


--------------------


Edited by Cornholio (07/31/03 01:57 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1765848 - 07/31/03 01:40 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

You may find this site interesting (it's a site dedicated to rebutting the claims of Holocaust revisionists or whatever they're called):

http://veritas.nizkor.org

Here's what they say about one point raised here:
Quote:


5. Auschwitz was in Poland, not Germany. Is there any proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz?

The IHR says:

No. A reward of $50,000 was offered for such proof, the money being held in trust by a bank, but no one came up with any credible evidence. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was extensively modified after the war and a mortuary was reconstructed to look like a large "gas chamber." It is now a big tourist attraction for the Communist Polish government.

The IHR says (revised):

No. Auschwitz, captured by the Soviets, was modified after the war, and a room was reconstructed to look like a large "gas chamber." After America's leading expert on gas chamber construction and design, Fred Leuchter, examined this and other alleged Auschwitz gassing facilities, he stated that it was an "absurdity" to claim that they were, or could have been, used for executions.

Nizkor replies:

Regarding the $50,000 reward offer: it was paid, to the last cent (actually $90,000), to Mel Mermelstein, an Auschwitz survivor who took the IHR to court. Here is the statement made by the judge:

The Honorable Thomas T. Johnson, on October 9, 1981, took judicial notice as follows:

Under Evidence Code Section 452(h), this court does take judicial notice of the fact that Jews were gassed to death at the Auschwitz Concentration Camp in Poland during the summer of 1944

and

It just simply is a fact that falls within the definition of Evidence Code Section 452(h). It is not reasonably subject to dispute. And it is capable of immediate and accurate determination by resort to sources of reasonably indisputable accuracy. It is simply a fact.

The IHR complains that they were not given a chance to dispute this fact, but then the American court system is not meant to be a place for people to try to prove crackpot theories. No "credible evidence" was produced because there was no call for it -- a courtroom is not the place to rehash the work of historians over the last half-century.

Besides, "credible evidence" means only what Holocaust-deniers want it to mean. Michael Shermer, in an open letter, has offered to take the IHR up on a similar offer, but only if they precisely define ahead of time what they will accept as evidence. He has received no reply. (In fact, to date, his letter has not even been printed.)

After this trial, both Mermelstein and the IHR sued each other for libel, but both decided not to go to court. The Holocaust deniers claim this is a "stunning victory" which "nullifies the result of the first trial." Nonsense: the two were unrelated, and the second trial would have had nothing to do with the gas chambers of Auschwitz.






--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: gnrm23]
    #1765882 - 07/31/03 01:48 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

gnrm23 said:
there were masses of people who ere living skeleotns... and there were stacks of bodies like cordwood waiting to bew burned... and there were cyklon B poison gas dipsensers set up to gas the "showers"... and the shoes and clothes and jewelry and gold teeth and soap-making facilities (to use the fat from the rendered bodies & the ashes as well...)


Revisionists agree that many people did starve to death, and were subsequently cremated. The stories about the soap-making and lamp-shade facilities have since been denounced by historians (even Jewish historians).

As for the gas chambers, that's what's still being debated. So far, no one has been able to prove they existed to claim the $50,000 reward.


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1765901 - 07/31/03 01:54 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

This isn't directed at you personally cornholio, I'm assuming you took this info from the site (I didn't really read it to be truthful).

The allied survival rate in German POW camps is estimated to be 98%. The German survival rate in allied POW camps is estimated to be 80%.

Do these estimates come from anywhere?

In other words, approximately one million Germans died in allied concentration camps - the same numer as the Jews that died in German concentration camps!!!

How do they arrive at that figure?  How did POW camps all of a sudden become concentration camps?

Was it allied policy to exterminate the Germans???

This logic is confusing.  How do figures (with no source?) all of a sudden suggest an 'extermination policy' when the figures are supposedly based on survival rates.  Are they assuming that every single person who didn't survive was 'exterminated'?

It seems logical that we?d happy if there was a distraction to keep this statistic under wraps.

The logic baffles me to be frank. :smile: 


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (07/31/03 01:58 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Edame]
    #1765965 - 07/31/03 02:17 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
Do these estimates come from anywhere?


Obviously, I can give you the many links that I found that confirm this (here's one). But see if you can find a website that shows something different. The first five sites I clicked on all confirmed 1 million Germans died in allied POW camps.

Quote:

How do they arrive at that figure? How did POW camps all of a sudden become concentration camps?


I don't how they arrived at the figure. And I mistakenly called the allied POW camps concentration camps (thanks, I fixed it)

Quote:

This logic is confusing. How do figures (with no source?) all of a sudden suggest an 'extermination policy' when the figures are supposedly based on survival rates. Are they assuming that every single person who didn't survive was 'exterminated'?


No one is suggesting an extermination policy (I was simply asking a question). My point was that if 1 million Germans could die under "normal" POW camp conditions, couldn't 1 million Jews also die under "normal" concentration camp conditions?


--------------------


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1765982 - 07/31/03 02:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Nope, maybe these groups overlap, but there is a difference: a lot of the momentum behind Holocaust revisionism is carried by neo-nazis who have a very specific political agenda rather than a concern about historical accuracy or just simple any-conspiracy-is-true bandwagonism like the moon landing deniers.




I know, it was meant to be a smart ass generalization(poorly). I meant that both groups are rediculous.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1765987 - 07/31/03 02:31 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think that the mountain of first-hand accounts of concentration camps (both from survivors and Nazis) indicates that conditions were anything but normal. Here's a snippet from Joseph Goebbels' diary:

February 14, 1942: The F?hrer once again expressed his determination to clean up the Jews in Europe pitilessly. There must be no squeamish sentimentalism about it. The Jews have deserved the catastrophe that has now overtaken them. Their destruction will go hand in hand with the destruction of our enemies. We must hasten this process with cold ruthlessness.

March 27, 1942: The procedure is a pretty barbaric one and not to be described here more definitely. Not much will remain of the Jews. On the whole it can be said that about 60 per cent of them will have to be liquidated whereas only 40 per cent can be used for forced labor.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (07/31/03 02:31 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,728
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 2 days, 1 hour
Re: Holocaust Revisionist Theory [Re: Cornholio]
    #1765996 - 07/31/03 02:34 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

The six million figure simply subtracts the number of Jews alive in Europe a few years after the war from those alive in Europe several years before the war. It ignores that the Jewish population in America, Israel, and other countries outside of Europe had increased by almost six million in this period of time, as a result of a new Exodus. Thus, those who had left Europe were simply declared to be Holocaust victims.




That sounds very strange, especially if no normal scientists managed to calculate the jewish population correctly. So I have to question your sources. What are your sources for these population statistics?


Post Extras: Print Post  Remind Me! Notify Moderator
Jump to top. Pages: 1 | 2 | Next >  [ show all ]

General Interest >> Political Discussion

Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Iran presents: Holocaust cartoon contest
( 1 2 all )
Catalysis 3,537 24 02/13/06 09:08 AM
by seeker
* Auschwitz - Myths & Facts
( 1 2 all )
ekomstop 2,778 26 02/03/05 09:25 AM
by Seuss
* Iran Nazi holocaust connection
( 1 2 all )
Luddite 3,278 36 09/05/06 11:50 PM
by BrAiN
* Auschwitz? Is he that Jewish tailor down the road? Phred 695 16 12/05/04 04:40 PM
by luvdemshrooms
* Bush heir to Holocaust fortune... ruskifile 551 2 02/28/03 10:43 AM
by Rono
* Revisionist Thoughts on the War on Iraq wingnutx 401 2 11/07/03 03:01 PM
by wingnutx
* HOLOCAUST SURVIVOR DENOUNCES ANTI-GUN-OWNERSHIP MOVEMENT MagicalMystery 1,221 14 09/07/05 12:50 PM
by MagicalMystery
* Israeli Cabinet votes to Expel Arafat in Theory
( 1 2 3 4 5 all )
SquattingMarmot 4,018 92 09/17/03 03:07 PM
by shakta

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Enlil
1,672 topic views. 0 members, 0 guests and 9 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Toggle Favorite | Print Topic | Stats ]
Search this thread:
Out-Grow.com - Mushroom Growing Kits & Supplies
Please support our sponsors.

Copyright 1997-2017 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.064 seconds spending 0.008 seconds on 21 queries.