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InvisibleRide On
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Registered: 12/24/12
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What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour?
    #17635797 - 01/30/13 03:31 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

The grains can not be successfully sterilized without PC, The PF cakes, made of vermiculite and flour can.

Could you explain to me please, what makes the contaminants in the flour more vulnerable than the same contaminants in the grains, that the flour is made of.

Thank you.



Edited by Ride On (02/03/13 03:54 PM)

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Offlineboneynerd
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: Ride On]
    #17635854 - 01/30/13 03:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

the insides of seeds might be less susceptible to heat and incapable of sterilization but still..

do seeds develop with bacteria inside? otherwise I'm kinda baffled also lol.

who knows.. it might just be a general rule, besides PC is easy and besides the large overhead cost of say $120 for a good one.. why not.

if you don't believe what they say try it out yourself and experiment :P i am constantly running science experiments myself trying to validate ideas.


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OfflinePussyFart
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: boneynerd]
    #17640016 - 01/30/13 08:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Because the soaking of the grains enables the endospores in the grains to germinate, and steaming alone would not kill them.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: Ride On]
    #17640250 - 01/30/13 08:36 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Ride On said:
The grains can not be successfully sterilized without PC, The PF cakes, made of vermiculite and flour can.

Could you explain to me please, what makes the contaminants in the flour more vulnerable than the same contaminants in the grains, that the flour is made of.






I've always assumed that grinding into flour damages the hard shell of the endospores.  There may be other processes at work, but that seems to make the most sense.
RR


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #17733005 - 02/02/13 02:34 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

My thought has been the surface area. Having it ground so fine allows the steam to penetrate very well, bringing each tiny piece of grain to a temperature that is at least as high as the temp on the inside of the whole kernel.

Never thought about what RR posted, but it seems like it would also be a factor. I just don't think that grinding it would damage enough endospores for that to be the only reason it works. I'm sure it helps, though.


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These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.

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Offlinethiotimoline
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #17733367 - 02/02/13 03:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If physical damage to the endospores were important, then it should be much better to grind the flour yourself than to buy it pre-ground since you don't want bacteria to have time to make new endospores. Certainly flour is swarming with exciting bacteria, as you will find if you ever make a sourdough starter.

Since I have never seen a recommendation to grind your own flour rather than buying it pre-ground, I think surface area/steam penetration is the major advantage of flour.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: thiotimoline]
    #17733433 - 02/02/13 03:58 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

it should be much better to grind the flour yourself than to buy it pre-ground since you don't want bacteria to have time to make new endospores.




It doesn't work that way.  First, the flour is dry when ground so the bacteria won't be active.  Second, the bacteria form their endospores while the grains are still attached to the stalks in the field.

Now, if you get grains wet, those endospores will germinate and begin forming new endospores within hours.  This is one reason why very long grain soaks are counterproductive.
RR


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InvisibleRide On
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #17739088 - 02/03/13 03:25 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Thanks, everybody.


Quote:

if you don't believe what they say



I do (and very many people "didn't belive it" already, so I don't have to))).
I just want to understand the biology behind it.

Edited by Ride On (02/03/13 03:50 PM)

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InvisibleBeefy1
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: Ride On]
    #17741361 - 02/03/13 10:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

My understanding is the PF tek works because we use rice flour.

Replace brown rice flour with rye or wheat flour and you need a PC.

It's been a few years though.  Is rice still thought to have fewer endospores than other grains?


There might be some kind of mechanical damage being done to endospores by grinding,  I don't know.  How big are endospores compared to grains of flour?  I'm not sure if you can grind flour fine enough to crush endospores.

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Offlinethiotimoline
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: Beefy1]
    #17741646 - 02/03/13 11:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Brown rice has had the hull removed while whole rye and wheat have not. (This is why brown rice goes rancid but other whole grains don't.) The hull tends not to get ground as finely, so brown rice flour has a smaller maximum particle size and should be easier for steam to penetrate.

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InvisibleBeefy1
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: thiotimoline]
    #17741794 - 02/04/13 12:27 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

thiotimoline said:
Brown rice has had the hull removed while whole rye and wheat have not. (This is why brown rice goes rancid but other whole grains don't.) The hull tends not to get ground as finely, so brown rice flour has a smaller maximum particle size and should be easier for steam to penetrate.





I don't know about that.



Whole wheat and rye have had the husk/hull removed during threshing. both still have the bran.


Rice has the hull/husk removed too,  Brown rice still has the bran.  that is why it is brown.


bran and husk/hull are two different things.

Edited by Beefy1 (02/04/13 12:29 AM)

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: Beefy1]
    #17742469 - 02/04/13 06:50 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

It's off point anyway.  You can steam-sterilize flour-ground rye, wheat, oats, etc., ala brf tek without a pressure cooker.
RR


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InvisibleBeefy1
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #17743446 - 02/04/13 12:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It's off point anyway.  You can steam-sterilize flour-ground rye, wheat, oats, etc., ala brf tek without a pressure cooker.
RR





I've had probably a 90% failure rate trying to steam sterilize anything other than BRF.

Oats were the worst for some reason :shrug:


I've had probably 75% success steaming Whole brown rice.

I think there's something to the grinding,  but I also think rice is just 'cleaner' to start with.

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OfflinebreathesFIRE
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Re: What happens to contaminants when you ground the grain into flour? [Re: Beefy1]
    #17747688 - 02/05/13 01:29 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

IMO its all about the surface area.  Its hard to believe the grinding would cause significant damage to the capsules of endospores of just a few microns or smaller.

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