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Invisiblemodern.shaman
San Mescalito
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New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. * 2
    #16889943 - 09/21/12 11:25 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Found this article posted on another forum and found it an interesting read.

New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. (Cactaceae) (“San Pedro”) and their relevance to shamanic practice

Aim of the study: The aim of the present study is to determine in a procedurally uniform manner the mescaline concentrations in stem tissue of 14 taxa/cultivars of the subgenus Trichocereus of the genus Echinopsis (Cactaceae) and to evaluate the relationship (if any) between mescaline concentration and actual shamanic use of these plants.

Materials and methods: Columnar cacti of the genus Echinopsis, some of which are used for diagnostic and therapeutic purposes by South American shamans in traditional medicine, were selected for analysis because they were vegetative clones of plants of documented geographic origin and/or because they were known to be used by practitioners of shamanism. Mescaline content of the cortical stem chlorenchyma of each cactus was determined by Soxhlet extraction with methanol, followed by acid–base extraction with water and dichloromethane, and high-pressure liquid chromatography (HPLC).

Results: By virtue of the consistent analytical procedures used, comparable alkaloid concentrations were obtained that facilitated the ranking of the various selected species and cultivars of Echinopsis, all of which exhibited positive mescaline contents. The range of mescaline concentrations across the 14 taxa/cultivars spanned two orders of magnitude, from 0.053% to 4.7% by dry weight.

Conclusions: The mescaline concentrations reported here largely support the hypothesis that plants with the highest mescaline concentrations – particularly E. pachanoi from Peru – are most associated with documented shamanic use.

Journal of Ethnopharmacology, Volume 131, Issue 2, 15 September 2010, Pages 356-362
Olabode Ogunbodede, Douglas McCombs, Keeper Trout, Paul Daley, Martin Terry



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Invisiblenotanumber
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Registered: 08/16/12
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: modern.shaman]
    #16889984 - 09/21/12 11:36 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

wow, very interesting. I'm surprised I haven't come across this earlier, seeing as how it's dated to 2010.

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Offlineislanduniverse
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: notanumber]
    #16890043 - 09/21/12 11:56 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

(note: i have not read the complete text)


but can we look at the chart real quick and discuss ?

just a quick glance at concentrations and it looks that they've listed scopulicola above an average pachanoi; also, they show even further down bridgesii monstrose, and even further down regular bridgesii (lageniformis)

????????

does that sound consistent with people's reports of bridgesii attempts? if so, are the other alkaloids/maoi in bridgesii THAT EFFECTIVE in cranking up the potency?




ill have to read the whole thing later when im not baked and tired

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Invisiblenotanumber
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: islanduniverse]
    #16890065 - 09/22/12 12:05 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

One thing they didn't take into consideration, and couldn't really given the limitations/design of the study, was growing conditions. I think a lot of people realize that stress increases alkaloid concentrations-- the fact that the study couldn't control for this, coupled with the low number of samples makes this probably a pretty significant confound.

But it's good data nevertheless.

Edited by notanumber (09/22/12 12:07 AM)

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Invisiblemodern.shaman
San Mescalito
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: islanduniverse]
    #16891207 - 09/22/12 09:00 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I have seen that and that still is consistent with the reports because this chart shows only the mescaline%. In the bridgesii there are many other active alkaloids (or so I'm told) and includes an maoi which alone would intensify the mescaline content.

I was mostly interested in this because of the 4.7% mescaline in the pachanoi. Many have reported weak cuttings of Pedro and I seem to have lucked out on my cuttings. I would love to also see a comparison on stressed, grafted and aged cacti to see the role each plays on the mescaline%.

The cuttings I received we're severely stressed which I now believe may have played a role in it, however, this is just my opinion and they were also old cacti since they were very fat. As for grafted cacti I don't believe that they are weaker since the the mescaline and alkaloids are only storied in the dark outer flesh directly under the skin and have no direct relation to their own roots. Seeing that the growth is accelerated I would also imagine that their alkaloid production mechanism would as well to ensure their protection, if this is a defensive mechanism. This may be challenged by the grow slow so it produces more alkaloids theory however fast growing Pedros do produce high mescaline constant so its may not be a direct result.


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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: modern.shaman]
    #16891242 - 09/22/12 09:11 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)



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InvisibleMufungo
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: Mufungo] * 1
    #16891262 - 09/22/12 09:18 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlineislanduniverse
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: Mufungo]
    #16891493 - 09/22/12 10:16 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

the strongest pedros i worked with were ordered online - they were fresh top cuts with nice flesh all around, no signs of scarring/scabbing/etc, and no signs of being stressed

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InvisibleBig L
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: islanduniverse]
    #16891800 - 09/22/12 11:36 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

There really is no logic or data to support the claim that stressing increases mesc content.

Healthy plants grow faster/bigger therefore yielding more mescaline. Prove me wrong.


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InvisibleBig L
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: Big L]
    #16891859 - 09/22/12 11:50 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

These studies have been floating around for a little. What I find most interesting is the huge difference between % of North American domesticated clones and the South American wild counterparts.

Even more so than this type of research, I am very interested in the Trich DNA research that is currently going on. This could put some old mysteries to rest.


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Invisiblenotanumber
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: Big L]
    #16891914 - 09/22/12 12:03 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I think the argument is that alkaloids are a response to stress and serve as a plant defense. I dont know of any studies that have been done to specifically test this folk knowledge. Maybe 'realize' in my previous post was too strong a word.

Edited by notanumber (09/22/12 12:04 PM)

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InvisibleBig L
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: notanumber]
    #16891947 - 09/22/12 12:10 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Every bit of that argument is a stretch. It is even a leap of faith to say that mescaline is a plant defense.


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Offlineislanduniverse
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: Big L]
    #16892150 - 09/22/12 12:53 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

it seems to me if a cutting is stressed that its natural reaction is to survive, and that means diverting its resources to putting out new roots, rather than "strengthening" its defenses by increasing alkaloid content

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Invisiblenotanumber
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: islanduniverse]
    #16893370 - 09/22/12 05:14 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, it makes sense when you put it that way-- if it's incorrect why is the belief so prevalent then?

Not to put too much emphasis on that specific claim alone though: if the 'mescaline is a response to stress' claim itself is bogus, surely there is something to the notion that growing conditions potentially strongly impact alkaloid concentration. The reports of variable concentrations you read everywhere seem too numerous to explain through genetics alone (though obv. genetics play a large role, which is why this is a nice study).

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InvisibleBig L
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: notanumber]
    #16893591 - 09/22/12 05:58 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

I seriously have no idea why the idea is so prevalent.


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Invisiblemodern.shaman
San Mescalito
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: Big L]
    #16893858 - 09/22/12 07:01 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Same reason why people believe that grafted cacti are weaker than cacti on their own roots. People keep spreading this as fact when they are not sure themselves. I'm guilty of this but now mention that its whats commonly agreed on.


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Offlinehookahhead
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: modern.shaman]
    #16894026 - 09/22/12 07:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago)

People also drink orange juice whenever they eat lsd, but I don't know where this comes from?  Me personally, I just eat another tab  :alientransform:


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Invisiblejoemolloy
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: islanduniverse]
    #16896650 - 09/23/12 10:54 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

islanduniverse said:
the strongest pedros i worked with were ordered online - they were fresh top cuts with nice flesh all around, no signs of scarring/scabbing/etc, and no signs of being stressed




Agreed.  San Pedro from local home improvement stores are healthy, cared for, visually flawless, and probably fertilized and I've always tripped off of them.  I'm not sure what role stressing has, but I suspect it is overstated.  Of course, I might have tripped much harder on those cactus if they were stressed.


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Don't PM me with bullshit.  I don't sell or trade cactus and I don't know where you can get any, other than your mother's ass.

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Invisible4HO-DMT
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: modern.shaman]
    #17627193 - 01/29/13 01:48 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

I know this is an old thread, but, I had a thought. The South American grown varieties (E. pachanoi ~5% :eek:) have a reputation for being potent.  All of the images of South American Grown Echinopsis that I have seen, appear to be very healthy specimens.  Maybe stressing is a myth. :strokebeard:

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OfflineJuke Adro
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Re: New mescaline concentrations from 14 taxa/cultivars of Echinopsis spp. [Re: 4HO-DMT]
    #17627371 - 01/29/13 04:11 AM (11 years, 2 months ago)

No! Stressing a plant with fertilizer or restricted root growth such as bound will increase content, you can argue the point till 2020 but you will still be exactly where you are today in doubt wondering maybe this maybe that so unless you have actually sent your plants non stressed then clones stressed to have an analysis done on themyou shouldn't really confirm nor deny.

I've said this before there are many places you can send anything from a jar of farts to a cacti to be completely stripped down and tested and you receive a full report.

so grab a few plants take clones then grow each and stress one but not the other then send away to be tested however you will need to do this to a few otherwise you won't get an average and you will still be here argring the point.
its not a myth and never will be. if everyone wants to make a donation of a few hundred each Im more than happy to do it to put an end to this!

even though i have said i shouldn't confirm or deny I am about 97.6% sure that it does indeed increase content with certain types of stressors though some will also lessen content and some will stabilize it!


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