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wire5
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Has anyone considered the ecological implications?
#17618187 - 01/27/13 10:05 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Of creating outdoor beds for speciese not native to your area.
Especially when you hear instances of say some one in the UK starting Ovoid or Cyan (Alleni) beds. Or even eddibles for that matter.
Is there any chance this could come back to bite is in the ass somehow? Any chances it over take native mushroom populations? What about other animals that may eat something similar looking that is native?
I dont have problems doing this kind of thing, im just curious, because you frequently hear about (or see instances of) animals and plants causing issues, but usually not fungus.
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17618212 - 01/27/13 10:13 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've thought about the benefits and downfalls of doing this. But I've basically come to the conclusion that mushrooms all tend to prefer a specific environment, and some even prefer certain species of wood, certain substrate, and some parasitic species prefer certain insects(cordyceps) with that said, spores of every species are floating in our atmosphere and landing thousands of miles away from where they originated, naturally.
Fungi has been balancing it's self for billions of years, spores of every species have landed in every habitat and environment the earth has to offer. That's without our help. It's nothing we should be concerned about in my opinion.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17618289 - 01/27/13 10:29 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah that is more or less how I feel about it. But I cant help imagining how aweful/funny it would be if some rare psilocibe species became a pest speciese for welsh farmers or something crazy like that.
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Emma-Lou
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17618720 - 01/27/13 12:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Its definitely worth thinking about!
As climate change is certainly starting to affect species distribution world-wide then the conditions that different fungi prefer will change as well... which definitely opens doors for fungi to become seen as an invasive pest-species too. There are studies on fungi wreaking havoc with trees and insects as distribution changes with a changing climate, but perhaps theres not too much to worry about with edibles etc grown on a small scale. But then lots of invasive species plant have become that way because we underestimated the opportunistic nature of all living things! Perhaps fungi arent studied or noticed so much as they are not as visible as plants.
Would be quite crazy if we were wiped out by a fungi, but not impossible! My dad has an idea for a crazy story involving something like that!
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Little Miss Mycologist
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17618806 - 01/27/13 12:39 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wire5 said:
Is there any chance this could come back to bite is in the ass somehow? Any chances it over take native mushroom populations?
Doubtful since the mushrooms we cultivate grow on dead organic matter and are not parasitic. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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ArmFromTheAbyss
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17618931 - 01/27/13 01:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Invasive species are a tremendous ecological threat. There are many species of fungi that have become invasive. For example, Ophiostoma ulmi is the fungus that causes Dutch Elm Disease. American Chestnut has been virtually wiped out due to the fungus Endothia parasitica. Bat populations in the North America have been affected by Geomyces destructans. I'm sure the list could go on and on.
None of these are Basidiomycetes like the Psilocybes. I suppose it would be possible for a Psilocybe to become invasive, but it's probably not very likely. Invasive species become problems because they have few competitors or predators. I would imagine that in most cases the native fungi far overpopulate any introduced species making it unlikely to become invasive.
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#17618974 - 01/27/13 01:15 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
wire5 said:
Is there any chance this could come back to bite is in the ass somehow? Any chances it over take native mushroom populations?
Doubtful since the mushrooms we cultivate grow on dead organic matter and are not parasitic. RR
Feel free to correct me if im wrong (and admit to playing devils advocate) but aren't some of eddibles also parasetic, like oysters or lions mane.
Better yet! Assume Sp. X is not native and grows on decaying aspen log, now Sp. Y is native and grows on the same aspen logs. However Sp. X thrives in Sp. Y's climate and therefore grows faster than Sp. Y. Now lets assume X gets a good foot hold on some aspen logs. Is there a chance Sp. X could take over "all" of the aspen logs (given many years of course) so that Sp. Y has no aspen logs to grow on. Over the course of many years wouldnt Sp. X chome out Sp. Y?
And I know all about Geomyces, I haven't been caving in a while because of it. However im talking more of a slow unnoticed take over, much like non-native lady bugs are taking over the narive onea in the SE USA.
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psylosymonreturns
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: ArmFromTheAbyss]
#17618982 - 01/27/13 01:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
ArmFromTheAbyss said: Invasive species are a tremendous ecological threat. There are many species of fungi that have become invasive. For example, Ophiostoma ulmi is the fungus that causes Dutch Elm Disease. American Chestnut has been virtually wiped out due to the fungus Endothia parasitica. Bat populations in the North America have been affected by Geomyces destructans. I'm sure the list could go on and on.
None of these are Basidiomycetes like the Psilocybes. I suppose it would be possible for a Psilocybe to become invasive, but it's probably not very likely. Invasive species become problems because they have few competitors or predators. I would imagine that in most cases the native fungi far overpopulate any introduced species making it unlikely to become invasive.
yes theres a fungus that grows on returning salmon here in BC that threatens their chance of spawning. and there is a fungus on bees , and cant forget mummyberry on blueberry plants. but we dont grow these fungus , whos going to complain if morels are cultivated so much they over populate a cup fungus species or something .
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: psylosymonreturns]
#17619337 - 01/27/13 02:32 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Im asking more about the latter bit, because who knows one day that cup fungus could cure cancer . Seriously though is there a chance of this happening especially if we were to factor in somehow a growth in number of out door cultivators.
Again im not saying it would be bad, or that I want to discourage out door cultivators. Im just entertaining a hypothetical thought of mine.
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thiotimoline
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: psylosymonreturns]
#17619344 - 01/27/13 02:34 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Most oyster species rot wood that is already dead, but Armillaria species for example can be highly destructive parasites on living trees.
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17619718 - 01/27/13 04:18 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wire5 said: Im asking more about the latter bit, because who knows one day that cup fungus could cure cancer 
P.Stamets cures cancer with fungi all the time
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17619779 - 01/27/13 04:32 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wire5 said: Is there any chance this could come back to bite is in the ass somehow?
No.
Quote:
Any chances it over take native mushroom populations?
That would be awesome!!!
Quote:
Tmethyl said: P.Stamets cures cancer with fungi all the time 
There are no good studies that say that medicinal mushrooms cure cancer.
A lot of cancer goes away on its own, so it's hard to say one way or the other...
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#17619858 - 01/27/13 04:49 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Dont get me wrong Allan I think it would be amazing as well!
So fungus (we'll leave zygomytes out for the purposes of argument) is so finely tuned to its niche that there is no chance of one species pushing out another, even with human aid so to speak.
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17619914 - 01/27/13 05:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wire5 said: So fungus (we'll leave zygomytes out for the purposes of argument) is so finely tuned to its niche that there is no chance of one species pushing out another, even with human aid so to speak.
Fungi push out other fungi species all the time.
They are very competitive.
But at that point they are filling the same ecological niche, would anyone really complain if a Psilocybe out competed Hypholoma fasciculare?
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#17620632 - 01/27/13 07:36 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
wire5 said: So fungus (we'll leave zygomytes out for the purposes of argument) is so finely tuned to its niche that there is no chance of one species pushing out another, even with human aid so to speak.
Fungi push out other fungi species all the time.
They are very competitive.
But at that point they are filling the same ecological niche, would anyone really complain if a Psilocybe out competed Hypholoma fasciculare?
Damn your flawless logic
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pseudotsuga


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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17622492 - 01/28/13 07:20 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Here in California we have seen the implications of non-native species by the introduction of Amanita phalloides, besides poisoning unscrupulous mushroom hunter, it doesn't seem to be hurting anything. In the over 100 years since its introduction has put any other fungi out business, nor has it had any negative impact on local ecology.
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psylosymonreturns
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: thiotimoline]
#17622836 - 01/28/13 09:54 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
pseudotsuga said: Here in California we have seen the implications of non-native species by the introduction of Amanita phalloides, besides poisoning unscrupulous mushroom hunter, it doesn't seem to be hurting anything. In the over 100 years since its introduction has put any other fungi out business, nor has it had any negative impact on local ecology.
exactly same as here. the death caps inhabit the hazel nut plantations . the europeans brought the haze nut, the hazel nut brought the A phaloides . but there isnt anything else that grows in the habitat, its their own niche . they travel with it and arent out competing anything.Quote:
thiotimoline said: Most oyster species rot wood that is already dead, but Armillaria species for example can be highly destructive parasites on living trees.
Armillaria had a huge boom this last year around here. it was a tough year for most species but the honeys really flourished. it would be beneficial to spread an edible that can contain it somewhat like oysters.
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maryxmas
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: psylosymonreturns]
#17627880 - 01/29/13 09:03 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Psilocybe mushrooms only thrive in disrupted areas like those created by mankind. ( cow pastures, wood chip covered planter systems,
It would be difficult for them to branch outside of the environment we have created and into the natural world in sufficient quantities to ever be a menace.
It is funny to me that in ecological terms humans are the keystone species (A keystone species is a species that has a disproportionately large effect on its environment relative to its abundance. Such species play a critical role in maintaining the structure of an ecological community, affecting many other organisms in an ecosystem and helping to determine the types and numbers of various other species in the community) and that psilocybin mushrooms wouldn't be as abundant without us mucking about and disrupting nature..... It is a symbiotic relationship and it is as if we were made for each other like bees and apple blossoms.
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: maryxmas]
#17627908 - 01/29/13 09:14 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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A couple species of Psilocybes "thrive" with human disturbances, to say the entire psilocybe genus "only thrives in disrupted areas" I cannot agree with. The majority of them need no intervention to thrive and we've probably been more detrimental then beneficial to their existence.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17628476 - 01/29/13 12:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Also im not specifically talking about the psilocybe genus, but all cultivated mushrooms. However I've been using psilocybe as an example because they are the most fun to talk about
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17628518 - 01/29/13 12:11 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I would definitely see it more likely than a psilocybe(but still unlikely) that an edible would cause more ecological disturbance. Flamulina velutipes is cultivated commonly and can fruit aggressively in the wild. Oysters too of course, fast colonizers and prolific fruiters as well as dumping an impressive(unreal) spore load.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17628641 - 01/29/13 12:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yeah, I was actually thinking most about oysters being the worst possible culprit when writing this thread. For the reasons youve already stated.
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17628728 - 01/29/13 12:50 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Another advantage with Pleurotus species is they adapt quickly and are not picky when it comes to substrate. They've been cultivated on wood, phone books, toilet paper, news paper, cardboard, brf cakes, dung, coffee, straw.. just to name a few. 
They are mushroom gangsters
If we could just get them to colonize politicians the world would be a better place.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edited by Tmethyl (01/29/13 12:57 PM)
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17628888 - 01/29/13 01:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl
If we could just get them to colonize politicians the world would be a better place.

I can picture going into the senate to be greeted by 100's of human sized/shaped "cakes" with oyster fruiting bodies jutting off of them.
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17628922 - 01/29/13 01:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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The oysters fruiting from a political substrate would probably be tainted and inedible though. That doesn't keep me from losing hope however.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17628942 - 01/29/13 01:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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How would it be any different than fruiting oysters off of wads of wasted money
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17628957 - 01/29/13 01:26 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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vladtepes
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17630182 - 01/29/13 04:43 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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What is the natural distribution of spores to begin with? I am under the impression that once airborne spores can end up traveling the whole globe? Is that true? or does a mushrooms spores only generally travel outward to a certain average radius?
-------------------- “If the words 'life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness' don't include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn't worth the hemp it was written on.” ― Terence McKenna My Trade list
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Tmethyl
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: vladtepes]
#17630443 - 01/29/13 05:16 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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They can travel the whole globe, and have even been found in the stratosphere, there is a theory in which they actually escape into space. It's heavily dependent on weather and environment, etc.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17630863 - 01/29/13 06:29 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Holy shit space shrooms?!?! This os news to me, I demand aricles or more information Nao!
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17630874 - 01/29/13 06:31 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I'm getting together some information for you.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Tmethyl]
#17630916 - 01/29/13 06:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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maryxmas
King of the Hippiecrates


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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17631174 - 01/29/13 07:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wire5 said:

Also im not specifically talking about the psilocybe genus, but all cultivated mushrooms. However I've been using psilocybe as an example because they are the most fun to talk about 
Give some examples of species that don't require a disturbed environment
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Amphibolos
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: maryxmas]
#17631675 - 01/29/13 08:32 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I have a good gif that show the movement of the airborne dust of the Sahara and of one of the desert in China.
If those aglomerations of dirt can travel to the amazon forest i have no doubt that spores can travel very long distances.
Also, past a certain aerodynamic diameter, the particules wont ever fall on the ground except if they encounter an obstacle.
Here is the gif
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psylosymonreturns
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: maryxmas]
#17631827 - 01/29/13 08:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
maryxmas said:
Quote:
wire5 said:

Also im not specifically talking about the psilocybe genus, but all cultivated mushrooms. However I've been using psilocybe as an example because they are the most fun to talk about 
Give some examples of species that don't require a disturbed environment
P ovoids can grow in the wild, P pelliculosa and P strictipes can grow in conifer forests, although they do thrive better in clearcuts, P azurescen was just chillin in the dune grasses before we let them loose into landscaped enviroments, P caerulipes , P quebecensis and even say P yungensis grow on naturally fallen debris ........
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Mykes logos
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17632411 - 01/29/13 10:30 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I like this thread
I work with many different government and privately owned ventures eradicating invasive exotic plants and animals in south Florida...
Has anyone ever looked into how Ganoderma zonatum is actually a bad thing here in FL?
It would be really cool if we could introduce a mushroom species that could help take out melaleuca trees and brazilian peppers, among many other non-native trees, in a similar way that G. zonatum kills palm tree species...
I thought about the negatives when I was looking into doing a mycofiltration project utilizing a non-fruiting strain of pleurotus ostreatus... but IMO/IME, there aren't any known negatives 
Thanks for starting a good discussion OP
Cheers from SWFL
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: vladtepes]
#17632848 - 01/30/13 12:03 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
vladtepes said: I am under the impression that once airborne spores can end up traveling the whole globe? Is that true?
I don't think so.
Quote:
or does a mushrooms spores only generally travel outward to a certain average radius?
Depends on many factors, but generally you have different species in areas that are separated geographically.
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b plus

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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Alan Rockefeller] 1
#17632971 - 01/30/13 12:36 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Spores can easily travel thousands of miles.
I'm sure if there's a strong enough gust of wind, and spores are swept up into a storm and eventually the stratosphere, they can easily travel around then entire globe.
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: b plus]
#17633023 - 01/30/13 12:54 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
b plus said: Spores can easily travel thousands of miles.
I'm sure if there's a strong enough gust of wind, and spores are swept up into a storm and eventually the stratosphere, they can easily travel around then entire globe.
But for spores to start a new mushroom colony, there need to be two spores from the same species that germinate near each other. If they have traveled a long ways, the chance of this happening is almost 0%.
I agree that spores can travel the entire globe, however when they arrive at their destination they will probably have been sterilized by ultraviolet light.
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psylosymonreturns
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#17634070 - 01/30/13 09:32 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:
b plus said: Spores can easily travel thousands of miles.
I'm sure if there's a strong enough gust of wind, and spores are swept up into a storm and eventually the stratosphere, they can easily travel around then entire globe.
But for spores to start a new mushroom colony, there need to be two spores from the same species that germinate near each other. If they have traveled a long ways, the chance of this happening is almost 0%.
I agree that spores can travel the entire globe, however when they arrive at their destination they will probably have been sterilized by ultraviolet light.
thats just it, the chance of 2 spores landing in the same place after traveling through the stratosphere is pretty slim! good call!
i live in an area where button mushrooms are cultivated by the thousands and ive only seen an A bisporus in the wild once. and ive even hunted fields and places that are right next to mushroom farms.
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Workman
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Alan Rockefeller] 1
#17634457 - 01/30/13 11:08 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
But for spores to start a new mushroom colony, there need to be two spores from the same species that germinate near each other. If they have traveled a long ways, the chance of this happening is almost 0%.
True, true, but the occasional 2 spored basidium can produce a spore that will produce fertile fruit bodies. Long distance travel might be the reason we see 2 spored basidia not uncommonly.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Workman]
#17640656 - 01/30/13 09:45 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
But for spores to start a new mushroom colony, there need to be two spores from the same species that germinate near each other. If they have traveled a long ways, the chance of this happening is almost 0%.
True, true, but the occasional 2 spored basidium can produce a spore that will produce fertile fruit bodies. Long distance travel might be the reason we see 2 spored basidia not uncommonly.
I don't know if you guys are aware, but there were studies done on this subject in the early 1900s...
It may have been the Spirit of St. Louis or one of the early long distance flight tests (I forgot), but I remember reading something about how they installed some kind of contraption on the wings so that they could catch small particles in the air then see what they got...
In that case it was across the atlantic... and they did in fact find a variety of mushroom spores in the samples.
Also, a bird called the cattle egret (they hang out with the cows here in south FL) originated in africa and was actually introduced into the northeast coast of South America, then to the tropics, then into Florida, ALL apparently by hurricanes...
spores of all kinds could have been swept across the ocean (over many years) by hurricanes, and also by animals...
it makes sense to me that mushrooms commonly found all over the world originated in one general area and spores traveled, germinated, colonized, then continued the cycle...
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17643071 - 01/31/13 11:56 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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They no doubtably originated from 1 mushroom eons ago.
This would also explain how we see certain specieses on almost all contenants.
Now I wonder (I bet a meterologist could answer this) if there is a way to use weather patterns to discover the origin of certain prolific species (ie oysters or cubes). Or is that unnecassary because we have better ways to track down this info.
Going back to Tmethyl's space shrooms, it would be cool if (whenever galatic space travel is possible) we found species originating from earth, on otherplanets lol.
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17676351 - 01/31/13 12:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I didn't mean from one specific fungi...
I meant species originated in certain areas and then over many years, through natural causes and events, adapted better than others via natural selection over a few thou generations, etc...
and ended up reproducing sexually and asexually elsewhere a few thou years later.
however, fungi are more closely related to humans than to plants... and they are relatively new (as far as we know) compared to many other forms of early life... and idk if you've seen the newest model of Earth's phylogeny, but holy shit its complicated... even the guys who designed it will tell you its far from being "completed"
I was curious about the same questions... so I took a few oceanography and marine science courses in school.
so I could answer part of that for you- it might seem difficult to understand many concepts and wind/weather patterns in the different spheres and climates, etc.; however, long story short, spores/pollen/seeds/etc can travel extremely far distances given the perfect conditions...
big storms, etc. probably played a huge role in sweeping spores elsewhere... just like it has with many plant and animals species (many plant species have relied on animals to disperse their seeds/spores/pollen/sperm/etc for as far back as we know...)
"space shrooms" is a legitimate concept...
spores should actually be stored in a very similar environment to what space is like.
Earth has been hit by a few meteors and such over the billions of years it has been here, and i think like 4 or 5 billion years ago earth was still forming from huge chunks of ice/rock, etc. that was left over from the formation of the solar system...
so yes, just like how nitrogen, carbon dioxide, methane, hydrogen, etc arrived/was created here 4-5 billion years ago, we can assume the original ancestors of fungi and modern animal species originated in the oceans and had evolved from prokaryotes that probably evolved into eukaryotic cells and such...
im not sure if im correct, but around 1 or 2 bil years ago, protist lineages became pretty damn diversified through endosymbiosis...
so fungi maybe evolved and adapted via mutations and natural selection from protists?
the oldest lineage of fungi are chytridiomycota... so if you look at certain protists under the microscope, many structures are similar.
... and this is on topic because i tried to explain the underlying roots (and history) and causes for fungi diversification and species being spread around the world...
which we are now planting in our gardens and growing in our closet greenhouses 
please correct me if im wrong about anything... its been a minute since i was in bio 2 or evolutionary bio...
back to work I go...
cheers from FL
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17676378 - 01/31/13 12:48 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nope, sounds like everything that I'd heard (at least from what I remember) in those same two classes lol (kind of wishing I stuck with that genetics degree now lol)
It was more so weather patterns I dont understand. But I could easily see spores being swept across great distances.
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mycelial.groove
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17725420 - 02/01/13 08:32 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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This doesn't pertain directly to making outdoor beds, but the paper I've listed below suggests at the invasiveness of at least one fungal species.
There really isn't a whole lot of knowledge on this phenomenon. Most data on distributions and occurrences of fungi even in areas with long histories of foraging are limited. It gets even more complicated when historical records may be sullied by misidentifications. In the U.S., we don't have the long foraging history (at least not recorded) and most of our empirical records come from the pacific northwest. Anne Pringle from Harvard put a pretty convincing argument regarding Amanita phalloides and it's potential invasiveness. At the very least, she used what records were available to make a convincing case. She's a bomb researcher regardless. Check it out: Paper
Edit: One more thing. The species concept (what is a species) in mycology is sometimes as murky as it is for bacteria. We hardly understand the genetics of people, let alone fungi which IMO are pretty f'd up compared to ours. Movement of genetic strains from one site to another, even if the same species exist in that locality could mess with the aspects of genetic diversity and adaptation of local strains.
-------------------- ~So Neglect Becomes Our Ally
Edited by mycelial.groove (02/01/13 08:44 AM)
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: mycelial.groove]
#17726509 - 02/01/13 12:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Exactly... it's a hard topic to really get answers from because we really don't have everything together- not even close.
IMO I think "invasive" fungi could be just as good as they are harmful; however, if you think about it from an agricultural/forestry perspective, there are many "if, and, and buts"... if you please...
IME with invasive plants/animals, they only become a problem when they crowd out native plants/trees or harm the natural food web/cycles or predator/prey relationships.
so for example, brazilian peppers and melaleuca harm natural ecosystems to the point of collapse here in south FL. they provide no natural goods and services for the native plant/animal species.
melaleuca were actually introduced to the everglades and surrounding areas to do the opposite of what the native wetland-loving tree/plant species do (filter out the water and provide natural goods and services, while not hurting anything).
they used melaleuca trees to literally dry up areas so that they could build on it (keep in mind south FL is basically a "reclaimed swamp with dirt thrown on top of it").
this was obviously a horrible idea, because the everglades, as it turns out, is literally a large river, and along with how the corps fucked the flow up coming out of lake okeechobee, south FL's water supply/quality is and was on the brink of collapse.
So, in conclusion, if you introduced Armillaria mellea (commonly found all around the world but im just using it as an example) to an area that has healthy trees, etc, it could become the worst tree pathogen that that area has ever had and ruin the forest's health for may years to come.
i could use a similar example for agriculture, etc...
any thoughts?
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Beefy1
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17730568 - 02/02/13 01:57 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've never seen a feral portobello and they've been grown in huge amounts commercially for some time now.
weather seems to limit many species. why do you find lots of psilocybes on the west coast and in the southeast? only two or three cold tolerant ones I can think of.
and I thought COTW was a parasite?
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos] 1
#17731056 - 02/02/13 05:28 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mykes logos said: spores should actually be stored in a very similar environment to what space is like.
Nice post until you lost me with that.
Spores traveling through space would be bombarded by radiation which would render them sterile in short order. Look at all the shielding we put on spacecraft to protect our equipment and personnel from radiation. We wouldn't want to store our spores in a high radiation and UV climate such as space. We go to great lengths to keep them in the dark and protected. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17731185 - 02/02/13 06:43 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that outdoor cultivation of non-native species has a very real potential to cause ecological damage. We have seen it with introduced species in Australia countless times, not just with plants and animals but also fungi. The Victorian era in particular saw many introductions of exotic plants and animals to Australia in order to create 'European' landscapes/gardens and game hunting.
One inadvertent introduction was Amanita muscaria. It was a mycorrhizal partner of some of the exotic trees that were introduced. It's not a fussy species and will form a mycorrhizal association with a variety of tree species. So, once in Australia it has begun growing with native trees and displacing native species of fungi that otherwise would have grown there.
The same principle applies to saprobic species. An invasive species fills an ecological niche and/or consumes resources that would otherwise have been used by a native species. The native species gets displaced by the invasive one.
Some argue that this is a natural process and that we shouldn't care that the native species was killed off by a stronger competitor (natural selection, etc). I would agree if this were a natural encounter between species, but not if it's the result of human activity (where the two species would not have otherwise met).
Some argue that humans are part of nature, so their actions should be considered natural... and ultimately that they're not responsible for any ecological damage they have caused. I think this is just an attempt to mitigate responsibility and maybe reduce their cognitive dissonance.
tl;dr = We should all consider the ecological implications before growing exotic species and be aware of the biosecurity risks they pose. Our actions have the potential to cause ecological damage.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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omegafaust
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: TimmiT]
#17731228 - 02/02/13 07:05 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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This thread interests me
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
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wire5
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: omegafaust]
#17731388 - 02/02/13 08:24 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Awesome post TimmiT, yeah i've heard of australia's problems with invasive species, the Simpsons even ripped on it. So A Muscaria is actually pushing out other fungi around where you live? That wouldnt have been my firat guess, but they are quite vigorous. And I agree %100 that if a human introduces it than its not natural.
RR, so spores won't be able to survive space eh? Is it just the radiation, or would other factors come into play?
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: TimmiT]
#17732426 - 02/02/13 12:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Mykes logos said: spores should actually be stored in a very similar environment to what space is like.
Nice post until you lost me with that.
Spores traveling through space would be bombarded by radiation which would render them sterile in short order. Look at all the shielding we put on spacecraft to protect our equipment and personnel from radiation. We wouldn't want to store our spores in a high radiation and UV climate such as space. We go to great lengths to keep them in the dark and protected. RR
Exactly- they should be stored in a similar environment... I should have clarified. The first time I heard that was from you, actually.
I wish I could find the post, but you explained that scientists store them in -300 something degrees in liquid nitrogen or something?
And I remember the thread discussing something similar to "space shrooms" haha.
the universe... what a concept
so that's where I was coming from
TimmiT!!!! I'm so glad an Australian can chime in. Many of AU's environmental issues are similar to South Floridas.
Also, many of south FL's problems are from AUSTRALIAN TREES like the meleleucas and australian pines!
this is literally what I'm getting a degree in atm...
and to add to the last part of TimmiT's post, humans IMO are like the biggest invasive animal on the planet. for like 110 thousand years we were hunting/gathering, until like 10000 years ago when the first few "cities" were built... human population just boomed after the agricultural revolution too...
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17734321 - 02/02/13 07:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wire5 said: Awesome post TimmiT, yeah i've heard of australia's problems with invasive species, the Simpsons even ripped on it. So A Muscaria is actually pushing out other fungi around where you live? That wouldnt have been my firat guess, but they are quite vigorous. And I agree %100 that if a human introduces it than its not natural.
Not in my immediate area but certainly in my state. The main concern is that A. muscaria have started growing with Nothofagus in Victoria, Tasmania and New Zealand. The Nothofagus forests are very interesting in an ecological sense, particularly when it comes to their fungal associations. Displacing native species is not only damaging to biodiversity but also to the health of the entire forest.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: TimmiT]
#17735066 - 02/02/13 09:08 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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right on
New Zealand probably has one of the best biosecurity programs in the world I can imagine...
Are there any scholarly articles or research about A. muscaria in AU?
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obtuse
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17736039 - 02/03/13 12:15 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, one of the main papers published on the subject is:
Quote:
Characterisation of ectomycorrhizal formation by the exotic fungus Amanita muscaria with Nothofagus cunninghamii in Victoria, Australia by Dunk, Christopher William; Lebel, Teresa; Keane, Philip J Mycorrhiza, ISSN 0940-6360, 02/2012, Volume 22, Issue 2, pp. 135 - 147
Abstract The occurrence of the exotic ectomycorrhizal fungus Amanita muscaria in a mixed Nothofagus–Eucalyptus native forest was investigated to determine if A. muscaria has switched hosts to form a successful association with a native tree species in a natural environment. A mycorrhizal morphotype consistently found beneath A. muscaria sporocarps was examined, and a range of morphological and anatomical characteristics in common with those described for ectomycorrhizae formed by A. muscaria on a broad range of hosts were observed. A full description is provided. The likely plant associate was determined to be Nothofagus cunninghamii based upon anatomy of the roots. Analysis of ITS-1 and ITS-2 regions of nuclear ribosomal DNA sequences confirmed the identities of both fungal and plant associates. These findings represent conclusive evidence of the invasion of a non-indigenous ectomycorrhizal fungus into native forest and highlight the ecological implications of this discovery.
Also a paper here about the same problem in WA:
http://www.australasianmycology.com/pages/pdf/29/1/4.pdf
Chalciporus piperatus, a bolete, associated with coniferous and deciduous trees of the Northern Hemisphere has also been found growing with Nothofagus cunninghamii in east Tasmania (source: Fuhrer, B.A. and Robinson, R. 1992. Rainforest fungi of Tasmania and south-east Australia. CSIRO, Melbourne.)
There is also an interesting report on Amanita muscaria in New Zealand here:
http://www.envirolink.govt.nz/PageFiles/485/507-NLRC72.pdf
Cheers, Ob.
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