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Workman
1999 Spore War Veteran



Registered: 03/01/01
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Alan Rockefeller] 1
#17634457 - 01/30/13 11:08 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
But for spores to start a new mushroom colony, there need to be two spores from the same species that germinate near each other. If they have traveled a long ways, the chance of this happening is almost 0%.
True, true, but the occasional 2 spored basidium can produce a spore that will produce fertile fruit bodies. Long distance travel might be the reason we see 2 spored basidia not uncommonly.
-------------------- Research funded by the patrons of The Spore Works Exotic Spore Supply My Instagram Reinvesting 25% of Sales Towards Basic Research and Species Identification 
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homo nosce te ipsum


Registered: 08/05/12
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Workman]
#17640656 - 01/30/13 09:45 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Workman said:
Quote:
Alan Rockefeller said:
But for spores to start a new mushroom colony, there need to be two spores from the same species that germinate near each other. If they have traveled a long ways, the chance of this happening is almost 0%.
True, true, but the occasional 2 spored basidium can produce a spore that will produce fertile fruit bodies. Long distance travel might be the reason we see 2 spored basidia not uncommonly.
I don't know if you guys are aware, but there were studies done on this subject in the early 1900s...
It may have been the Spirit of St. Louis or one of the early long distance flight tests (I forgot), but I remember reading something about how they installed some kind of contraption on the wings so that they could catch small particles in the air then see what they got...
In that case it was across the atlantic... and they did in fact find a variety of mushroom spores in the samples.
Also, a bird called the cattle egret (they hang out with the cows here in south FL) originated in africa and was actually introduced into the northeast coast of South America, then to the tropics, then into Florida, ALL apparently by hurricanes...
spores of all kinds could have been swept across the ocean (over many years) by hurricanes, and also by animals...
it makes sense to me that mushrooms commonly found all over the world originated in one general area and spores traveled, germinated, colonized, then continued the cycle...
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wire5
Hippie Born too Late



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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17643071 - 01/31/13 11:56 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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They no doubtably originated from 1 mushroom eons ago.
This would also explain how we see certain specieses on almost all contenants.
Now I wonder (I bet a meterologist could answer this) if there is a way to use weather patterns to discover the origin of certain prolific species (ie oysters or cubes). Or is that unnecassary because we have better ways to track down this info.
Going back to Tmethyl's space shrooms, it would be cool if (whenever galatic space travel is possible) we found species originating from earth, on otherplanets lol.
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17676351 - 01/31/13 12:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I didn't mean from one specific fungi...
I meant species originated in certain areas and then over many years, through natural causes and events, adapted better than others via natural selection over a few thou generations, etc...
and ended up reproducing sexually and asexually elsewhere a few thou years later.
however, fungi are more closely related to humans than to plants... and they are relatively new (as far as we know) compared to many other forms of early life... and idk if you've seen the newest model of Earth's phylogeny, but holy shit its complicated... even the guys who designed it will tell you its far from being "completed"
I was curious about the same questions... so I took a few oceanography and marine science courses in school.
so I could answer part of that for you- it might seem difficult to understand many concepts and wind/weather patterns in the different spheres and climates, etc.; however, long story short, spores/pollen/seeds/etc can travel extremely far distances given the perfect conditions...
big storms, etc. probably played a huge role in sweeping spores elsewhere... just like it has with many plant and animals species (many plant species have relied on animals to disperse their seeds/spores/pollen/sperm/etc for as far back as we know...)
"space shrooms" is a legitimate concept...
spores should actually be stored in a very similar environment to what space is like.
Earth has been hit by a few meteors and such over the billions of years it has been here, and i think like 4 or 5 billion years ago earth was still forming from huge chunks of ice/rock, etc. that was left over from the formation of the solar system...
so yes, just like how nitrogen, carbon dioxide, methane, hydrogen, etc arrived/was created here 4-5 billion years ago, we can assume the original ancestors of fungi and modern animal species originated in the oceans and had evolved from prokaryotes that probably evolved into eukaryotic cells and such...
im not sure if im correct, but around 1 or 2 bil years ago, protist lineages became pretty damn diversified through endosymbiosis...
so fungi maybe evolved and adapted via mutations and natural selection from protists?
the oldest lineage of fungi are chytridiomycota... so if you look at certain protists under the microscope, many structures are similar.
... and this is on topic because i tried to explain the underlying roots (and history) and causes for fungi diversification and species being spread around the world...
which we are now planting in our gardens and growing in our closet greenhouses 
please correct me if im wrong about anything... its been a minute since i was in bio 2 or evolutionary bio...
back to work I go...
cheers from FL
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wire5
Hippie Born too Late



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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17676378 - 01/31/13 12:48 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Nope, sounds like everything that I'd heard (at least from what I remember) in those same two classes lol (kind of wishing I stuck with that genetics degree now lol)
It was more so weather patterns I dont understand. But I could easily see spores being swept across great distances.
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mycelial.groove
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17725420 - 02/01/13 08:32 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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This doesn't pertain directly to making outdoor beds, but the paper I've listed below suggests at the invasiveness of at least one fungal species.
There really isn't a whole lot of knowledge on this phenomenon. Most data on distributions and occurrences of fungi even in areas with long histories of foraging are limited. It gets even more complicated when historical records may be sullied by misidentifications. In the U.S., we don't have the long foraging history (at least not recorded) and most of our empirical records come from the pacific northwest. Anne Pringle from Harvard put a pretty convincing argument regarding Amanita phalloides and it's potential invasiveness. At the very least, she used what records were available to make a convincing case. She's a bomb researcher regardless. Check it out: Paper
Edit: One more thing. The species concept (what is a species) in mycology is sometimes as murky as it is for bacteria. We hardly understand the genetics of people, let alone fungi which IMO are pretty f'd up compared to ours. Movement of genetic strains from one site to another, even if the same species exist in that locality could mess with the aspects of genetic diversity and adaptation of local strains.
-------------------- ~So Neglect Becomes Our Ally
Edited by mycelial.groove (02/01/13 08:44 AM)
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: mycelial.groove]
#17726509 - 02/01/13 12:56 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Exactly... it's a hard topic to really get answers from because we really don't have everything together- not even close.
IMO I think "invasive" fungi could be just as good as they are harmful; however, if you think about it from an agricultural/forestry perspective, there are many "if, and, and buts"... if you please...
IME with invasive plants/animals, they only become a problem when they crowd out native plants/trees or harm the natural food web/cycles or predator/prey relationships.
so for example, brazilian peppers and melaleuca harm natural ecosystems to the point of collapse here in south FL. they provide no natural goods and services for the native plant/animal species.
melaleuca were actually introduced to the everglades and surrounding areas to do the opposite of what the native wetland-loving tree/plant species do (filter out the water and provide natural goods and services, while not hurting anything).
they used melaleuca trees to literally dry up areas so that they could build on it (keep in mind south FL is basically a "reclaimed swamp with dirt thrown on top of it").
this was obviously a horrible idea, because the everglades, as it turns out, is literally a large river, and along with how the corps fucked the flow up coming out of lake okeechobee, south FL's water supply/quality is and was on the brink of collapse.
So, in conclusion, if you introduced Armillaria mellea (commonly found all around the world but im just using it as an example) to an area that has healthy trees, etc, it could become the worst tree pathogen that that area has ever had and ruin the forest's health for may years to come.
i could use a similar example for agriculture, etc...
any thoughts?
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Beefy1
GONE


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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17730568 - 02/02/13 01:57 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I've never seen a feral portobello and they've been grown in huge amounts commercially for some time now.
weather seems to limit many species. why do you find lots of psilocybes on the west coast and in the southeast? only two or three cold tolerant ones I can think of.
and I thought COTW was a parasite?
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos] 1
#17731056 - 02/02/13 05:28 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mykes logos said: spores should actually be stored in a very similar environment to what space is like.
Nice post until you lost me with that.
Spores traveling through space would be bombarded by radiation which would render them sterile in short order. Look at all the shielding we put on spacecraft to protect our equipment and personnel from radiation. We wouldn't want to store our spores in a high radiation and UV climate such as space. We go to great lengths to keep them in the dark and protected. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17731185 - 02/02/13 06:43 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think that outdoor cultivation of non-native species has a very real potential to cause ecological damage. We have seen it with introduced species in Australia countless times, not just with plants and animals but also fungi. The Victorian era in particular saw many introductions of exotic plants and animals to Australia in order to create 'European' landscapes/gardens and game hunting.
One inadvertent introduction was Amanita muscaria. It was a mycorrhizal partner of some of the exotic trees that were introduced. It's not a fussy species and will form a mycorrhizal association with a variety of tree species. So, once in Australia it has begun growing with native trees and displacing native species of fungi that otherwise would have grown there.
The same principle applies to saprobic species. An invasive species fills an ecological niche and/or consumes resources that would otherwise have been used by a native species. The native species gets displaced by the invasive one.
Some argue that this is a natural process and that we shouldn't care that the native species was killed off by a stronger competitor (natural selection, etc). I would agree if this were a natural encounter between species, but not if it's the result of human activity (where the two species would not have otherwise met).
Some argue that humans are part of nature, so their actions should be considered natural... and ultimately that they're not responsible for any ecological damage they have caused. I think this is just an attempt to mitigate responsibility and maybe reduce their cognitive dissonance.
tl;dr = We should all consider the ecological implications before growing exotic species and be aware of the biosecurity risks they pose. Our actions have the potential to cause ecological damage.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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omegafaust
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: TimmiT]
#17731228 - 02/02/13 07:05 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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This thread interests me
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
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wire5
Hippie Born too Late



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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: omegafaust]
#17731388 - 02/02/13 08:24 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Awesome post TimmiT, yeah i've heard of australia's problems with invasive species, the Simpsons even ripped on it. So A Muscaria is actually pushing out other fungi around where you live? That wouldnt have been my firat guess, but they are quite vigorous. And I agree %100 that if a human introduces it than its not natural.
RR, so spores won't be able to survive space eh? Is it just the radiation, or would other factors come into play?
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: TimmiT]
#17732426 - 02/02/13 12:47 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Mykes logos said: spores should actually be stored in a very similar environment to what space is like.
Nice post until you lost me with that.
Spores traveling through space would be bombarded by radiation which would render them sterile in short order. Look at all the shielding we put on spacecraft to protect our equipment and personnel from radiation. We wouldn't want to store our spores in a high radiation and UV climate such as space. We go to great lengths to keep them in the dark and protected. RR
Exactly- they should be stored in a similar environment... I should have clarified. The first time I heard that was from you, actually.
I wish I could find the post, but you explained that scientists store them in -300 something degrees in liquid nitrogen or something?
And I remember the thread discussing something similar to "space shrooms" haha.
the universe... what a concept
so that's where I was coming from
TimmiT!!!! I'm so glad an Australian can chime in. Many of AU's environmental issues are similar to South Floridas.
Also, many of south FL's problems are from AUSTRALIAN TREES like the meleleucas and australian pines!
this is literally what I'm getting a degree in atm...
and to add to the last part of TimmiT's post, humans IMO are like the biggest invasive animal on the planet. for like 110 thousand years we were hunting/gathering, until like 10000 years ago when the first few "cities" were built... human population just boomed after the agricultural revolution too...
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TimmiT


Registered: 03/23/10
Posts: 5,303
Loc: Victoria
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: wire5]
#17734321 - 02/02/13 07:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
wire5 said: Awesome post TimmiT, yeah i've heard of australia's problems with invasive species, the Simpsons even ripped on it. So A Muscaria is actually pushing out other fungi around where you live? That wouldnt have been my firat guess, but they are quite vigorous. And I agree %100 that if a human introduces it than its not natural.
Not in my immediate area but certainly in my state. The main concern is that A. muscaria have started growing with Nothofagus in Victoria, Tasmania and New Zealand. The Nothofagus forests are very interesting in an ecological sense, particularly when it comes to their fungal associations. Displacing native species is not only damaging to biodiversity but also to the health of the entire forest.
-------------------- "Reality leaves a lot to the imagination" ~ John Lennon
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: TimmiT]
#17735066 - 02/02/13 09:08 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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right on
New Zealand probably has one of the best biosecurity programs in the world I can imagine...
Are there any scholarly articles or research about A. muscaria in AU?
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obtuse
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Re: Has anyone considered the ecological implications? [Re: Mykes logos]
#17736039 - 02/03/13 12:15 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes, one of the main papers published on the subject is:
Quote:
Characterisation of ectomycorrhizal formation by the exotic fungus Amanita muscaria with Nothofagus cunninghamii in Victoria, Australia by Dunk, Christopher William; Lebel, Teresa; Keane, Philip J Mycorrhiza, ISSN 0940-6360, 02/2012, Volume 22, Issue 2, pp. 135 - 147
Abstract The occurrence of the exotic ectomycorrhizal fungus Amanita muscaria in a mixed Nothofagus–Eucalyptus native forest was investigated to determine if A. muscaria has switched hosts to form a successful association with a native tree species in a natural environment. A mycorrhizal morphotype consistently found beneath A. muscaria sporocarps was examined, and a range of morphological and anatomical characteristics in common with those described for ectomycorrhizae formed by A. muscaria on a broad range of hosts were observed. A full description is provided. The likely plant associate was determined to be Nothofagus cunninghamii based upon anatomy of the roots. Analysis of ITS-1 and ITS-2 regions of nuclear ribosomal DNA sequences confirmed the identities of both fungal and plant associates. These findings represent conclusive evidence of the invasion of a non-indigenous ectomycorrhizal fungus into native forest and highlight the ecological implications of this discovery.
Also a paper here about the same problem in WA:
http://www.australasianmycology.com/pages/pdf/29/1/4.pdf
Chalciporus piperatus, a bolete, associated with coniferous and deciduous trees of the Northern Hemisphere has also been found growing with Nothofagus cunninghamii in east Tasmania (source: Fuhrer, B.A. and Robinson, R. 1992. Rainforest fungi of Tasmania and south-east Australia. CSIRO, Melbourne.)
There is also an interesting report on Amanita muscaria in New Zealand here:
http://www.envirolink.govt.nz/PageFiles/485/507-NLRC72.pdf
Cheers, Ob.
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