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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
People's perception of colors...
    #1761053 - 07/29/03 08:58 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

K try to follow me on this one, it's something my girlfriend brought up the other day...

Have you ever though that your perception of blue is my perception of yellow, but because we were both brought up to know what we see as blue or yellow respectively is named Green?

Basically, if I were to take my brain out and put it in your head and vice versa, we'd be seeing colors all fucked up...

I remember a while back someone posted why this ISN'T the case, but I couldn't remember what the thread was called - so I'm hoping some of you can throw out some good questions / comments on this..



--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Invisible2Experimental
Male User Gallery
Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: nubious]
    #1761138 - 07/29/03 09:17 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

"Have you ever though that your perception of blue is my perception of yellow, but because we were both brought up to know what we see as blue or yellow respectively is named Green"

That could be VERY true. I find myself all the time when seeing green my mind thinks "orange" and vice versa, but its only with thaty color... I dont know what this all means, but It could be something your talking about.............

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Offlineliggs
Stranger
Registered: 07/26/03
Posts: 1
Last seen: 18 years, 9 months
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1761407 - 07/29/03 10:48 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I know exactly what you mean.

I've thought about that for a while, and when I was young, I didnt understand how they figured out color blind people were actually color blind because of this. See I just used to think that color blind people saw colors in a different way than we do, but I thought, "why does it matter, I mean if they see red completely different than I see red, how do people figure that out? I mean, regardless of how they see it, they still grow up being told, "thats red", so its red to THEM, so how does anyone figure out that what they're seeing it as is actually "green" in everyone elses eyes."

Thats until I learned that color blind people just cant distinguish between different colors.

Hope this makes sense..

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Offlinedjd586
Underpants Gnome

Registered: 02/03/03
Posts: 1,655
Last seen: 14 years, 2 months
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: liggs]
    #1761414 - 07/29/03 10:54 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I thought about this once while I was tripping. What really perplexed me was not how one person from the next precieve a particular color, but how does one discribe color to a blind person?


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Phase 1... collect underpants... phase 2...??? ... Phase 3 - PROFIT!

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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: nubious]
    #1761487 - 07/29/03 11:38 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Here.... let's test it out.



Name that color and the two ROYGBIV colors that flank it in the spectrum. Be honest.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1761495 - 07/29/03 11:41 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

name what color? I don't get it. what's the test?

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Anonymous

Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1761505 - 07/29/03 11:45 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Good one Sclorch. This test is why this "theory" is bunk. Whoever came up with this different-color-seeing theory didn't think it all the way through, and people should stop propagating it, because it's nonsense.

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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: ]
    #1761532 - 07/29/03 11:55 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

ok I think I get it now.. but the theory isn't necessarily bunk because people could see different colors but their sensitivity could just be "shifted" a little bit in the spectrum. so they could still do the test if their color sensitivity was consistently shifted to one side. yeah it's kind of a stretch. I don't think people are seeing different colors but it's possible that one person could identify #3 as green and another person would say it's blue, just slight differences in color sensitivity, kinda like color blindness.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
Posts: 3,040
Loc: there
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: Sclorch]
    #1761555 - 07/30/03 12:02 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

a better test will be showing people the color spectrum and tell them to draw a line where they think 'orange' ends and 'yellow' starts. you would get a pretty wide range of results.

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OfflineStrumpling
Neuronaut
Registered: 10/11/02
Posts: 7,571
Loc: Hyperspace
Last seen: 13 years, 6 days
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: nubious]
    #1761750 - 07/30/03 01:46 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I've thought of this often..

It is possible that everybody sees different parts of the spectrum totally differently, but since we're externally shown the spectrum and which parts are called what, these differences are invisible. It brings up a strange phenomenon of language where two completely different internal perceptions can summon the same external interpretation.


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 months, 14 days
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1761773 - 07/30/03 02:01 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

There are some mutant women who have visual receptors for 4 primary colors instead of the usual 3. Some of their "green" receptors have their frequency shifted. To them, all the rest of us seem color blind.

And birds and reptiles have far more advanced color vision than mammals. Some birds have receptors for 5 primary colors. To them, "green" is probably just as varied as "color" is to us.

The question why colors have their peculiar subjective qualities probably has to do with deep associations produced by evolution (red=blood, green=plant, blue=water).

Edited by Rhizoid (07/30/03 02:08 AM)

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Offlineappreciator
Stranger
Registered: 01/29/03
Posts: 11
Last seen: 19 years, 11 months
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: nubious]
    #1761955 - 07/30/03 04:12 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I had a Philosophy of Mind class last quarter, and we discussed this a bit. People have thought about this problem for a long time, its just a specific instance of "The Problem of Other Minds." Its impossible to tell whats passing through another's mind, lets face it, you dont know most of whats going in your own brain.

Experiments have been conducted where they had many people place something like 1000 different colored chips in order. They found that those that weren't diagnosed with color blindness basically all ordered them the same. If some of your colors were reversed, then you would order the chips differently. However, if all of the color qualia you saw were the exact negative of what i saw, the inversion wouldn't be detectable.

This is a favorite topic of anti-materialists, as is Frank Jackson's argument of the neurologically omniscient Mary.

Its funny, I take a Philosophy of Mind class and all I really learn is that a buncha people have a buncha different theories and its gonna be a long time before we find out whats right.

By the way, I've been reading the forum for a little while and I wanted to say whats up, I like the discussion that goes on here... keep it up fools.

peACeID

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InvisibleSteevil
Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 103
Re: People's perception of colors... *DELETED* [Re: appreciator]
    #1761991 - 07/30/03 05:00 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Post deleted by Steevil

Reason for deletion: I had embarrassing opinions in the noughties


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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
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Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: Steevil]
    #1762089 - 07/30/03 07:09 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I can't prove it, but I don't think color sensations can be switched like that, not unless you change the brain circuitry or the color receptors in the eyes.

The reason I can't prove it is that too little is yet known about why the blueness of blue is experienced in the way it is and how this differs from the redness of red, etc.

But try comparing the switching of colors with the switching of up and down in the visual scene. This experiment has been done, by fitting people with specially prepared goggles that invert the image on the retina. The experimental subjects stumbled around for the first few days, having big problems with coordination, but then suddenly the inversion was "corrected" by the brain and the world of vision appeared normal again. Until they removed the inverting goggles...

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Offlinenubious
1up on the rest

Registered: 10/20/02
Posts: 534
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1762316 - 07/30/03 09:45 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

thanks for all your responses guys!


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: nubious]
    #1762349 - 07/30/03 10:06 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Once, in art class, a friend who had trouble distinguishing between certain colours asked us to tell him if the colour he had in his hand was green, and it was brown. We told him that, and he didn't trust us, cause he didn't want to mess up his painting.
So, he asked the teacher, who looked at both of them for awhile, and he told him that the brown colour was green. So, the kid started painting his green grass (or duck head, can't remember what it was) brown.
Everyone started yelling at the teacher, everyone thought he was just messing with the kid. He said he was partially colour blind, and he thought that was the real colour....
And this is the guy who was grading all of our work! Actually, he was an old, grumpy man, who was still only working because the teachers had been battling years and years to get a new contract, and when they finally did, he retired. I still think he was just messing the kid up on purpose..
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisible2Experimental
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Registered: 01/15/03
Posts: 18,073
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1762804 - 07/30/03 01:04 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Or maybe the teacher was enlightened, and realized that for the young artist to truly see the light, he must paint what he see's from his heart, and not what the cold dark world tells him to see : ( Poor fellow.... but do I mean the teacher or the student? ONLY YOU can decide.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 4 months
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1762862 - 07/30/03 01:26 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Um... I don't think that was the thing, at least in this case. The teacher was only there for more money, would break pots of student's he didn't like, and would constantly harass students who painted something he didn't like (we'd explain to him that it was how we wanted it to look). Our more enlightened literature teacher would constantly make jokes about that teachers outlook on life...
Thank god I got out of that place.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Invisiblechunder
marker

Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 966
Loc: The City
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1763134 - 07/30/03 03:06 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

But try comparing the switching of colors with the switching of up and down in the visual scene. This experiment has been done, by fitting people with specially prepared goggles that invert the image on the retina. The experimental subjects stumbled around for the first few days, having big problems with coordination, but then suddenly the inversion was "corrected" by the brain and the world of vision appeared normal again. Until they removed the inverting goggles...

Wow, that sounds like a really interesting experiment. Do you have a link to any more details about it, I'd love to check it out! Peace.


--------------------

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OfflineRhizoid
carbon unit
Male

Registered: 01/22/00
Posts: 1,739
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 3 months, 14 days
Re: People's perception of colors... [Re: chunder]
    #1764585 - 07/30/03 11:33 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The first researcher who did this was George Stratton in 1897, but I can't find any details about his experiment. Here is a link to an article about some japanese scientists who repeated the experiment recently.

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