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Offlinecircastes
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Diploid]
    #17571042 - 01/18/13 11:59 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

That's what a Christian said.


--------------------
My solitude...
My shield...
My armour...

TESTED
WITH
FULL
FORCE

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OfflineMarukai
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Diploid]
    #17571125 - 01/19/13 12:22 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Because it's a bogus organization

That's complete bullshit, but if you really believe that, how about one of these:

The Premanand Challenge:
http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/rules.htm

The Australian Skeptics Challenge:
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/challenge.htm

The Science and Rationalists' Challenge:
http://humanists.net/avijit/prabir/sra.htm

There are many others. I will make the same offer. If you can do the bullshit you say you can do, I'll pay your travel expenses and you will become rich.

Note to audience: now we will hear a zillion reasons for why he can't do what he says he can do. And none of this will even slightly phase his absolute certainty even though he can't be bothered to demonstrate it and become a rich man.





All of those organizations are nothing more than Cults. It's sorta like the lame ass Scientology organizations.

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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #17571338 - 01/19/13 01:52 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
This is solid proof of your powerful S-Rays.



The above is an S-Ray destroying a Believatron.




:yeahthatsfunny:

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Mr Person]
    #17571462 - 01/19/13 02:47 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Knowing I made a random stranger smile means my life is not in vain.


--------------------

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Offlinespacer
Confusionhathfuckhismasterpiece

Registered: 10/19/11
Posts: 483
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #17571557 - 01/19/13 03:55 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

please troll more op. Or are you schitzo?

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InvisibleVaipen
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Loc: Europe
Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: spacer]
    #17571691 - 01/19/13 05:41 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

People ask the same question over and over again. 'Is it real'.

The answer is yes and no. In our world we have to choose the yes or the no. In my world both can be true. That is what quantum physics is about. Humans collapse the wave function by observation. Reality is a process in our heads, our minds are directly linked to what we perceive to be an external environment.

If reality is linked to our observation, our consciousness collapsing waves into particles, how could anyone insist fairies are unreal? The only reason most people do not see such mythic creatures is because we have a consensus that they are unreal, that they do not exist. This just means that we agree that reality holds no such beings and so the process in our minds that is part  of creating the world we see around us will reflect that agreement that they are unreal. Thus we see no such beings.

So in principle everything that we can possibly imagine can be real, can be made manifest. We just have to agree and create a consensus that it is so. Well, that is extremely hard to do. In this case we would need 'solid proof'. So we need to observe them and 'process' them into existence first (collapse some probability waves into particles that createa  fairy or Djinn) , so that the majority, the skeptics will agree they are real. But since the consensus tells us they are unreal, we cannot find any proof. That is where James Randi comes in. But he is too dumb to understand the nature of reality. Surely I believe he has no right hemisphere in his brain.

So why do we need this solid proof? That is because for most of us reality is only reality if science can prove it and give it a stamp of approval. Is is that materialist, reductionist scientific methodology, that way of thinking, that way of life that demands physical proof. They say 'show me the body of the alien from outer space'. 'Show me a fairy, captured and trapped in a box'.

Of course, that is nonsense. It is just scientism.

"Unlike the use of the scientific method as only one mode of reaching knowledge, scientism claims that science alone can render truth about the world and reality. Scientism's single-minded adherence to only the empirical, or testable, makes it a strictly scientifc worldview, in much the same way that a Protestant fundamentalism that rejects science can be seen as a strictly religious worldview. Scientism sees it necessary to do away with most, if not all, metaphysical, philosophical, and religious claims, as the truths they proclaim cannot be apprehended by the scientific method. In essence, scientism sees science as the absolute and only justifiable access to the truth."

(I have no source for this.)

So why do people see such things sometimes? Why, throughout history, people have witnessed strange phenomena? Because the consensus is not perfect. Now and then our process creating reality slips up and lets something through that manifests in the world we see around us. People are by nature not purely scientific. We want something eldritch in our lives, a mystery, the unexplainable. And so we manifest these elves and gnomes ourselves. And therefore they are as real as anything we can experience through our senses.

However, they are elusive. Unclear, they dwell in places where no one goes, because wherever we go as observers, we collapse the wave function according to our ideas about reality and they vanish. Bigfoot exists, but not of we are around, a paradox. But only a paradox because of our consensus based reality. Where we go we bring our concept of reality and it flattens out the world around us, stamps out and mythical features and creatures. Our worldview is pervasive and driven by almost 7 billion people.

James Randi is very safe with his million dollar contest, not because the test is fair, but because he and such poor souls like him, do not understand reality.

The test would be fair if we could somehow create a room where consensus reality has no power. Where one goes in and loses all predetermined notions of reality. Where we are not prone and driven by 7 billion people agreeing what is real and what is not. When we then ask someone to manifest some paranormal ability or show us a gnome, they would appear.

Reality and superstitions are not opposing concepts. Superstition is based on a flawed understanding of reality. Consensus reality is the average of all our hopes, dreams, expectations, ideologies, religions, political systems, values and norms. But if it is an average, then in the margins of our mind there is still the highest and lowest number being part of that average. And those 'numbers' are the elves and dwarfs, pixies and brownies, unicons and all the rest of folklore.

And it is no wonder we can encounter the strangest of beings in the mushroom trance. It is there when we access those concepts and ideas far away from the mean average line of consensus reality. In there we lose a great deal of the usual way we collapse the wave. We collapse the wave differently and as a result we perceive reality differently. You wouldn't believe th entity I once communicated with...

Once you realize these things you will find an answer to all similar questions. Is it real? Yes and no. The better question is, should we make it real. If we could accept conscience beings are conscious beings because we have the ability to collapse probability waves, to take potential and make out of it a reality, we can change reality to our own preference.

Since each of us has this power, sometimes when at peace in a woods we see glimpses of mythical beings or UFO's. In each of us is this big golden sphere, as we know from the film 'Sphere' after the book by Michael Crighton. We have the power to manifest our dreams. In this case we could truly transcend. I think ideas of an afterlife reflect this instinctively understood notion, that heaven is the place where you go when you create a new reality with your consciousness, of course being a wonderful place.

What scientific paradigm has done against us is to make us belief we have no such power. Our minds are locked into a perception of reality in where we are powerless to affect the world. We are taught from birth to except we are different from reality, we are not part of it, what we think is independent from reality. But this is not true.

I do not wish to live in such a reality. For me this is to be in a mental prison. I believe, against all odds, against the terror and dictatorship of the consensus, that I am able to create reality and that the only reason I have not ascended this plane of existence is because the consensus' momentum and mass and the vector it has is preventing me from doing so.

Enlightenment is the path to rid oneself of the consensus so we can be free to take control over our wave collapsing function.

Never ask me what is real!

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Marukai]
    #17571765 - 01/19/13 06:27 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Marukai said:
If Witchcraft and Sorcery is BS then explain why it's been around since the Sumerians. It is in fact the oldest practice. I don't call it a religion because most Witches/Sorcerers do not worship gods. Explain how curses work. Do you think that a simple Human can unleash a nasty curse? No... Magick is all done indirectly via evocation and invocation of Spirits. Some spirits are Jinns, Naga/Nagini etc. Sihir can send Jinns to possess people and destroy them.




This can all be easily explained with a cursory knowledge of human psychology.  Something you seen to know nothing of. This is typical of the young so it's no surprise.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Marukai]
    #17571768 - 01/19/13 06:28 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Marukai said:
Quote:

Diploid said:
Because it's a bogus organization

That's complete bullshit, but if you really believe that, how about one of these:

The Premanand Challenge:
http://www.indian-skeptic.org/html/rules.htm

The Australian Skeptics Challenge:
http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/challenge.htm

The Science and Rationalists' Challenge:
http://humanists.net/avijit/prabir/sra.htm

There are many others. I will make the same offer. If you can do the bullshit you say you can do, I'll pay your travel expenses and you will become rich.

Note to audience: now we will hear a zillion reasons for why he can't do what he says he can do. And none of this will even slightly phase his absolute certainty even though he can't be bothered to demonstrate it and become a rich man.





All of those organizations are nothing more than Cults. It's sorta like the lame ass Scientology organizations.





Bullshit.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleIcelander
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Registered: 03/15/05
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Vaipen]
    #17571772 - 01/19/13 06:31 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

James Randi is very safe with his million dollar contest, not because the test is fair, but because he and such poor souls like him, do not understand reality.


Butt of course you do. :boring:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

Registered: 01/15/12
Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Icelander]
    #17571827 - 01/19/13 07:05 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Yes I do. And if you considered my words more carefully rather than come with a 5-word response (and an emoticon), you would see that what I wrote is also right away the explanation of why I am right.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Vaipen]
    #17571861 - 01/19/13 07:27 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Any person worth their salt is never sure that they are right.  Sorry pal.

Btw I haven't ever seen a scientist claim science is the only way of gaining knowledge if the world.  Did you just make that up?  Science does claim to be the best tool we've developed for understanding material reality and you might even agree with that.

and

Our minds are locked into a perception of reality in where we are powerless to affect the world. We are taught from birth to except we are different from reality, we are not part of it, what we think is independent from reality.

I was never taught I was powerless to effect the world or that I was different from reality.  I took a science class. They disavowed me of that notion pretty quick.

And now that I think on it, it was the mystics, (christianity) that tried to convince me that I was separate from reality.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (01/19/13 08:49 AM)

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OfflineWithinity
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Icelander]
    #17571993 - 01/19/13 08:24 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Random fact

In Romania they take superstitions very seriously ,  also are the only country in the world (to my knowledge) which has legalized witchcraft as a legitimate profession , that being said they earn a shitload of money, how? by playing on peoples superstitions/emotions.

Seriously if one was capable of harboring magicks and whatnot , you would think they would be capable of living with less materialism, instead they put a bunch of curses on the Government when the law was passed for them to be taxed just like any other regular profession.

I'm not very familiar in regards to Jinn , but if i understand correctly it derives from the Qur'an in which it could be speaking in metaphors , there may be some substance behind it but not to be taken literally , just as Satan can be a metaphor for the human mind.


OP how do you view superstition in terms of getting bad luck when smashing a mirror , walking under a ladder etc

is that also coinciding with reality ?


--------------------

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

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Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Icelander]
    #17572174 - 01/19/13 09:20 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Any person worth their salt is never sure that they are right.  Sorry pal.




I am never sure I am right. But things can be yes and no at the same time in my worldview. So I am right and wrong. Confusing isn't it.

But even if you brush all that aside. Isn't it strange how our society attacks those who may claim some insight into something? We don't like anyone sticking their head above the mowing level. Why is that. It is because of science. In science you have to proof things, things cannot be both...and. Until you hit the quantum level of course.

Quote:


Btw I haven't ever seen a scientist claim science is the only way of gaining knowledge if the world.  Did you just make that up?  Science does claim to be the best tool we've developed for understanding material reality and you might even agree with that.




It is implied within everything they do, it is implied in education and throughout society. It is pervasive, people don't even see it. I don't know if you went to school at all but the emphasis in education is on math and language. Art, dance and such things aren't taught much at all. Do you disagree with that?

Quote:


and

Our minds are locked into a perception of reality in where we are powerless to affect the world. We are taught from birth to except we are different from reality, we are not part of it, what we think is independent from reality.

I was never taught I was powerless to effect the world or that I was different from reality.  I took a science class. They disavowed me of that notion pretty quick.

And now that I think on it, it was the mystics, (christianity) that tried to convince me that I was separate from reality.




Yes you were taught. You were told when you did not pay attention to stop daydreaming. In other words, stick to reality. When you had some fantasy, your parents and teachers told you that there are no monsters under your bed. You were taught from as early as you could understand words that you had to accept the world was as it appeared to them and that fanciful notions of not accepting it would land a firm hand on your ass. You were taught to obey parents, teachers and anyone with authority over you. And they didn't say so outright, but it was implied in every lesson they taught you and the way you were brought up. Which is another word for indoctrination. The instilling of concepts about our world within the child's  mind.
No one told you that if you dreamt hard and long you could make yourself fly. And when you tried that you quickly found out it didn't work and you came to accept reality as this solid unchanging fact of life. Beyond that you were told education was important, you had to do your best in math and sciences. Because your parents and teacher believed that would land you a good paying job.

All of society conspires to introduce a system into children where they are systematically trained to believe in certain axioms. You cannot fly, you cannot dream something to become true, you do not have superpowers, you cannot change reality with the power of your mind.

Christians, teachers, parents, they were all themselves indoctrinated in that system so they don't know alternatives then to raise children and teach them the same thing.

But no it is science itself that finds fairyland beyond the Planck scale.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Vaipen]
    #17572233 - 01/19/13 09:37 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Wow!

I think I can address this whole page right here.

No one told you that if you dreamt hard and long you could make yourself fly.

This is right and good thing too.  Had I tried to launch myself off a building like the superman fantasy I wouldn't be here to debate this.  Now if you could actually fly by believing that would be something else.  What makes me pretty sure this is impossible is that no one, scientist or mystic to my knowledge has ever done it and demonstrated it to others.  Think of the vast numbers of humans who had a shot at it. You'd think one would have done it.

There are things that scientists make no claims about nor do they consider it possible for them to know.  You attribute a lot of things to science that are really the layman's ignorance and misunderstanding of what science is.

Yes I was taught.  An indian boy was taught when it was appropriate to daydream and when not to so a bear or enemy did not kill them.  But I was also taught that there was a god that would love me but send me to hell if I wasn't a good boy.  You of course ignored how mysticism was involved in this process also.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Icelander]
    #17572265 - 01/19/13 09:43 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Mystic Rhythms



--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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InvisibleVaipen
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #17572290 - 01/19/13 09:53 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

It is no argument to say that someone does not understand science.

Do you know how many times people use that? If you disagree...then you 'just don't understand science'.

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Vaipen]
    #17572304 - 01/19/13 09:56 AM (11 years, 1 month ago)

You hardly addressed all  my post.  And maybe you don't understand. :shrug:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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InvisibleMr Person
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #17572860 - 01/19/13 12:09 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Knowing I made a random stranger smile means my life is not in vain.




You probably don't remember this, but I once said that I'd never seen you post anything worthwhile.  I apologize.  I was wrong.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Vaipen]
    #17574440 - 01/19/13 04:55 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

James Randi is very safe with his million dollar contest, not because the test is fair, but because he and such poor souls like him, do not understand reality.

The test would be fair if we could


Clearly you don't know anything about how JREF works.

The test is whatever the CLAIMANT says it is, not the JREF. The JREF doesn't make up the test, in other words. YOU do. All they do is make sure you don't cheat on YOUR OWN TEST.

So now tell me how a test made up by the person claiming to have magical powers can possibly be unfair?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleVaipen
Psychonaut

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Posts: 782
Loc: Europe
Re: Reality VS Superstitions [Re: Icelander]
    #17574619 - 01/19/13 05:37 PM (11 years, 1 month ago)

@Diploid:

JREF must approve all testing protocols. They also do a preliminary testing. Very suspicious. Randi is just a moron. Search for 'Rico Kolodzey' and what Randi wrote to him in a letter.

Actually, here it is:

"Date: 6/18/99 12:03 PM
 
Mr. Kolodzey:
 
Don't treat us like children. We only respond to responsible claims.
Are you actually claiming that you have not consumed any food products except water, since the end of 1998? If this is what you are saying, did you think for one moment that we would believe it?
 
If this is actually your claim, you're a liar and a fraud. We are not interested in pursuing this further, nor will we exchange correspondence with you on the matter.
 
Signed, James Randi.
(A hard-copy of this letter will be sent by post to you, today.)
James Randi Educational Foundation
201 S.E. 12th Street (Davie Blvd.)
Fort Lauderdale, FL 33316-1815"

In other words , James Randi preselects and prejudges who may apply for the test, after which the preliminary testing filters out anything that would embarrass them. And so the real challenge for a million dollars remains safe. How is this prejudging bias scientific, logical and fair? Like I said, you don't want that debunker on your side.

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