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OfflineRonoS
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Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated?
    #1748908 - 07/25/03 06:42 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Odai and Qusai Hussein, the two sons of Saddam who were slain Tuesday were major political figures in Iraq, do their killings count as assassinations, which are prohibited by the United States?

What are your thoughts?



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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Rono]
    #1748923 - 07/25/03 06:46 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

There are 500 or so posts dedicated to this one already.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Rono]
    #1748924 - 07/25/03 06:46 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I don't think killing someone who is shooting at you can be called an assasination.

Not even in Canoodia.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Rono]
    #1748932 - 07/25/03 06:50 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

They died with guns in their hands, as I understand it.

That does not constitute assassination.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Rono]
    #1749026 - 07/25/03 07:28 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Just as a side note, I do not personally believe that they were assasinated...I'm just looking for discussion on this.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1749195 - 07/25/03 08:30 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

No assassination, because it was a 6 hour fire fight....i mean either someone is a really bad assassin, or it wasn't a hit.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1749396 - 07/25/03 10:14 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I have been thinking about this and readling the document in question today. The President has the authority to get rid of the EO whenever he wants. I think it is reasonable to assume that if he thought this was in violation of that order he would get rid of it. It was written as direction to the intelligence community (CIA) on what they can do, and what the limits are. It also includes rules against human experimentation and a bunch of other things.

That being said, this is a war, that is not over, and was never said to be over. Plenty of other dictators in history have been offed. It is not against the LAW in the US, or international law that I know of. The two demons that were killed were not foreign leaders anymore. They attacked our troops first after we gave them the chance to come out. Again, this is a war. In war you generally don't capture the head of the snake, you cut it off. Had we succeeded in killing Saddam and his offspring, the first night of the war, the war would have been over. Until Saddam is dead we have not won in my opinion, unless he shows up in exhile somewhere. Any country that would do that though, is not to bright.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: shakta]
    #1749997 - 07/26/03 02:56 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

It is not against the LAW in the US

Assasinating foreign leaders isn't against the law? You sure about that?


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1751778 - 07/27/03 12:16 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I thought assassination was illegal under the UN conventions. You know,the whole World War 1 thing and all. (I'm not saying this was assassination,btw.)


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: shakta]
    #1752036 - 07/27/03 01:39 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

That being said, this is a war, that is not over, and was never said to be over. Plenty of other dictators in history have been offed. It is not against the LAW in the US, or international law that I know of. The two demons that were killed were not foreign leaders anymore. They attacked our troops first after we gave them the chance to come out.



I thought that the war was declared over by Bush? I remember hearing him say that it was over at one time...

Anyway, guns in hand or shooting at our troops dont matter, this was an assassination all the way. Our troops just werent walking by and happened to be fired on, they hunted these men down across the country and forced themselves upon them in order to kill them...


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: monoamine]
    #1752212 - 07/27/03 03:19 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Let us now turn to the status of transnational assassination under international law when a condition of war exists between the states involved. According to Article 23(b) of the regulations annexed to Hague Convention IV of October 18, 1907, respecting the laws and customs of war on land: "It is especially forbidden. . . to kill or wound treacherously, individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army." U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10, THE LAW OF LAND WARFARE (1956), which has incorporated this prohibition, authoritatively links Hague Article 23(b) to assassination at Paragraph 31: "This article is construed as prohibiting assassination, proscription or outlawry of an enemy, or putting a price upon an enemy's head, as well as offering a reward for an enemy `dead or alive.'"

From the point of the convergence between international and U.S. municipal law, the Hague Convention IV is a treaty of the United States that has received the advice and consent of the Senate and is, therefore, the "supreme law of the land" under Article 6 of the Constitution (the "Supremacy Clause"). Indeed, even if Congress were to enact a statute that expressly repealed the rule found at Hague Regulation Article 23(b), that would not permit U.S. officials to legalize assassinations. This is because, among other things, the Nuremberg Tribunal (1945) expressly ruled that the obligations codified at the Hague Regulations had entered into customary international law as of 1939.



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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: GabbaDj]
    #1752874 - 07/27/03 01:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I thought that the war was declared over by Bush? I remember hearing him say that it was over at one time...




Bush declared that 'major combat operations' had concluded. This means no more tank battles, or large unit fighting. The administration has been very specific that it is not all over by any stretchof the imagination.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753279 - 07/27/03 04:52 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
It is not against the LAW in the US

Assasinating foreign leaders isn't against the law? You sure about that?




Yes I am sure about it. EOs are not really laws, since the Legislature does not create them. They however, can not break an existing law, and are under the scrutiny of the Supreme Court as far as Constitutionality (sp?) goes. It is more a semantics thing than anything though.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: shakta]
    #1753291 - 07/27/03 04:55 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Let us now turn to the status of transnational assassination under international law when a condition of war exists between the states involved. According to Article 23(b) of the regulations annexed to Hague Convention IV of October 18, 1907, respecting the laws and customs of war on land: "It is especially forbidden. . . to kill or wound treacherously, individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army." U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10, THE LAW OF LAND WARFARE (1956), which has incorporated this prohibition, authoritatively links Hague Article 23(b) to assassination at Paragraph 31: "This article is construed as prohibiting assassination, proscription or outlawry of an enemy, or putting a price upon an enemy's head, as well as offering a reward for an enemy `dead or alive.'"

From the point of the convergence between international and U.S. municipal law, the Hague Convention IV is a treaty of the United States that has received the advice and consent of the Senate and is, therefore, the "supreme law of the land" under Article 6 of the Constitution (the "Supremacy Clause"). Indeed, even if Congress were to enact a statute that expressly repealed the rule found at Hague Regulation Article 23(b), that would not permit U.S. officials to legalize assassinations. This is because, among other things, the Nuremberg Tribunal (1945) expressly ruled that the obligations codified at the Hague Regulations had entered into customary international law as of 1939.


--------------------
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Offlineshakta
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753298 - 07/27/03 04:58 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Wow look a repost with no comments. I am impressed as hell!


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: shakta]
    #1753317 - 07/27/03 05:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

You were wrong. Get over it.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1753338 - 07/27/03 05:12 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Bullshit! You are wrong and I am right so there, eh? I don't think you have proven anything. Were did you steal that quote from anyway? What is missing between the dots?


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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1753996 - 07/27/03 10:00 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I dont see how you can claim it wasnt an assassination.

If someone tries to kill the president, his men are going to fight back. Since theres a fight, does that mean it isnt an assassination attempt?

They were assassinated. Not that it wasnt the right thing to do...


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After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus


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Offlinewingnutx
Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1754000 - 07/27/03 10:02 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

reportedly they were ordered to surrender via bullhorn, and opened fire.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Were Odai and Qusai Assassinated? [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #1754008 - 07/27/03 10:05 PM (13 years, 10 months ago)

The object of a war is to destroy the fighting ability and the command structure of a country.

The leader is a part of that command structure.

Of course you try and kill him.

The differences between an attempt, during a war, and an assassination are quite simple.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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