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InvisibleFischer
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What type of commercial agar is most suitable?
    #17424279 - 12/20/12 08:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I'm starting to really get stuck into agar work and would like to get some pre-made powdered medium rather than messing around with potatoes/dextrose/yeast/whatever.

Unfortunately, my lab supply place says they can get anything I want, but don't keep a catalogue and won't tell me everything they can get because there are just too many varieties.

What is the most suitable commercial agar medium for mycology?  Basic nutrient agar, LB agar or perhaps there is a selective agar that is well suited to mushroom mycelium?

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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17425460 - 12/21/12 12:00 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

MEA.


--------------------
Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.

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OfflineOICU812
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #17425909 - 12/21/12 03:24 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Stamets has a good agar mix, follow directions on the bottle and just add water.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

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InvisibleFischer
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: OICU812]
    #17426167 - 12/21/12 05:12 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Cheers guys, MEA it is.

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Invisiblestevoblue

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17429478 - 12/21/12 07:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I second Stamets MEA.  You can buy it with or without antibiotics. google fungiperfecti

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InvisibleFischer
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: stevoblue]
    #17429627 - 12/21/12 08:19 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Are the antibiotics worth it? Any downsides (besides cost, I imagine?)

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OfflineOICU812
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17429748 - 12/21/12 08:39 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Fischer said:
Are the antibiotics worth it? Any downsides (besides cost, I imagine?)




Don't use antibiotics unless you have bacterial contamination.  They will not work on fungal contaminates.  I keep a small amount on hand for hot pours over infected plates only.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

Edited by OICU812 (12/21/12 08:39 PM)

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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17449968 - 12/26/12 10:26 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Keep in mind that you should switch up your agar substrate over time to keep your strains on their toes. I switch up about every two months. Also very easy to make ur own once you get addicted to messing with it. My fav  right now is DFA. Simple 20 grams agar 20grams lassie dog food pulverized in a coffee grinder. Works crazy good

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InvisibleFischer
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #17450960 - 12/26/12 02:58 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Cheers.

Last batch I made up was 1tsp Marmite, 1tsp Agar powder, 250ml water.  Works alright I think, but I'm wondering whether it's selectively growing a contaminant =/

If anyone can be bothered looking, I've got a thread up here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/17450954/vc/1#17450954

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OfflineOICU812
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17451225 - 12/26/12 04:13 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Bookmark FastFred's Media Cookbook, it's an oldie but a goodie!

One of the agar mixtures I'm having good success with is:

MEPBA - Malt Extract soy Protein Brown rice flour Agar

20g Extra light malt extract
2g Soy protein powder
5g Brown rice flour
20g Agar
500 ml H2O

I make a different agar almost every time I pour a sleeve (20 plates) and then put them in a gallon ziplock.  When I am working a new strain, I will select one or two plates from four or five different formulations.  I can then watch the progress of the mycelium as it grows on multiple agar formulas at the same time.  This method allows me to select the best agar substrate for production of a particular strain.


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: OICU812]
    #17456647 - 12/27/12 05:15 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:
Stamets has a good agar mix, follow directions on the bottle and just add water.



This stuff works very well, and the price is fair.


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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OfflineSillyputty67

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Tmethyl]
    #17460247 - 12/28/12 10:08 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I just got into agar. I like to do small batches at a time. 250ml water. 5 grams light dry malt extract. 5 grams agar. This is enough to pour 7 standard petri's. I do it in a standard widemouth jar with an SFD.


This works flawlessly for me. Its easy breezy. The longest part is the pressure cook. I do mine for 30 min, where others do less.

Ive been using "molecule R" agar. Its designated for food chemistry, but it works great for plates. 35$ per pound on ebay.

Edited by Sillyputty67 (12/28/12 10:10 AM)

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #17482028 - 01/01/13 05:10 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Tic gums offers the highest grade agar around. John holiday referred me to them a year ago and I would never switch after trying their product.
The only problem is they only sell in bulk. Fifty pound bag minimums.

They do have a shopping page where they sell restaurant supply volume. I believe it is 25 bucks for a half pound..

The one they sell in the small volume is a no boil agar meaning you don't need to boil it when mixing before loading. You just keep an eye in it and when the thermometer reads 180 degrees your good to load it in the pc.

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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17482066 - 01/01/13 05:18 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ProfessorPinHead said:
Fifty pound bag minimums.




Holy... what?

:whatwhatwhat:


--------------------
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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InvisibleFischer
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17482162 - 01/01/13 05:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ProfessorPinHead said:
Tic gums offers the highest grade agar around. John holiday referred me to them a year ago and I would never switch after trying their product.
The only problem is they only sell in bulk. Fifty pound bag minimums.

They do have a shopping page where they sell restaurant supply volume. I believe it is 25 bucks for a half pound..

The one they sell in the small volume is a no boil agar meaning you don't need to boil it when mixing before loading. You just keep an eye in it and when the thermometer reads 180 degrees your good to load it in the pc.




Cheers Professor, can you clarify which particular product?

They list the following:

TIC Pretested® Agar Agar 100 FCC/NF Powder
TIC Pretested® Agar Agar 100-44 HG
TIC Pretested® Agar Agar 150 FCC/NF Powder
TIC Pretested® Agar RS-100 Powder

Agaroid® RS-30 Powder
Agaroid® RS-500 Powder
Agaroid® RS-507 Powder
Agaroid® RS-520 Powder
Agaroid® RS-575 Powder

I'm assuming that this is just the agar itself and still requires a nutrient base? (The vegemite agar is proving to be awesome; I opened a plate and waved it around the room for twenty seconds and have only gotten one small satellite colony of contam, but it grows P. Galindoi myc just fine)

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17482218 - 01/01/13 05:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Yea. That still requires an addition if nutrients which is good because you might want to want to switch them up like previously mentioned up thread.


You want the  'pretested agar RS-100' powder if you want the no boil. It is a bit more expensive.

The alternative is the 'pretested agar agar 100 FCC/NF powder.'

It is just as good and a bit cheaper but requires 212f  to melt...

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InvisibleFischer
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17482345 - 01/01/13 06:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Cheers Prof.

There's a local agent, so I'll hit them up and see how much I need to buy -eek-

Thanks so much for the assistance.

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17482383 - 01/01/13 06:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Not a problem brother. Anytime :smile:

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17482410 - 01/01/13 06:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It's good stuff.


--------------------
Myco-tek

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Jeff]
    #17482853 - 01/01/13 08:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

What's the practical difference in agar grade for growing mycelium on a petri dish? Is grade simply purity of the agar?


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Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17484525 - 01/02/13 02:34 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Terry M said:
Is grade simply purity of the agar?




That's a good question. I would assume that is along the lines of what they are talking about.

I guess the way it works is the commercial suppliers get it in very large batches.

To help with longevity of the shelf life of the product they add preservatives along the way.

So if you get your agar from somewhere like the Asian food market it has likely sat around a long time. It has also gone through the hands of a middle man or two to get to the store.

Tic gums gets their agar directly from the source and according to them they use only the best quality agar they can get, that being 100% pure and additive free.

I believe that is where the 'pretested' comes from.

They test it and if there are any impurities in it they don't use it.

This is a good question though terry... I may call them today to get a more definitive answer on that one.

Either way I know I have tried tic gums agar and a number of other ones.

Take now agar for example.

They are both preservative free but the now agar is crap in comparison IME...

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InvisibleFischer
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17484531 - 01/02/13 02:36 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I imagine it also has to do with the temperatures at which they hydrate fully and the temperature ranges they gel (or conversely, remain workable) at.

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17484689 - 01/02/13 03:53 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I'm a little confused here about cooking or pre-boiling agar before autoclaving.  When I was at Aloha, they were using Stamets agar.  They did not pre-boil or pre-heat, but simply mixed the agar and other components together and went straight into the autoclave.  They always used a ratio of 20g/L.

I have been making mine this way ever since I returned from Aloha and the plates have been turning out well except for one instance when I reduced the amount of agar to 16g/L.  In that case, I had partial jelling.  Is the pre-boiling done to cause 100% of the agar to go into solution that would not otherwise occur?  Am I getting incomplete hydration by not pre-boiling?


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17484877 - 01/02/13 06:28 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ProfessorPinHead said:
Take now agar for example.

They are both preservative free but the now agar is crap in comparison IME...




How did the crappiness show itself when you used this agar? I've never tried different agars, but just assumed they all jelled just fine, which is all they have to do. Though I can imagine that some need differing amounts of water than others to get the same degree of solidity.

Thanks,
Terry


--------------------
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OfflineSillyputty67

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17484963 - 01/02/13 07:11 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

From what Ive read, agar generally comes from two types of seaweed. Please pardon the lack of memory here.

1 type of  agar seaweed is good for cooking etc.

1 type is good for lab cultures.

Generally youll find them mixed in most agars, and is probably what most of us are running at home.

The high quality lab agar is made only from the 1 type of quality seaweed.
The Tic Gum's agar im assuming is made from the quality seaweed only.


--------------------
1) Everything I ever posted or say is a lie.

Edited by Sillyputty67 (01/02/13 08:43 AM)

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OfflineAmanita virosa
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #17485493 - 01/02/13 10:04 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Lab grade vs food grade agar. There is simply a purity standard for all lab grade reagents including agar which would be higher than say food grade or commercial grade reagents. Since we are sterilizing the agar the purity standard is somewhat irrelevant. If it gels well it's fine for agar work. I have been using food grade agar from www.bulkfoods.com @25/lb five lb minimum and it works great for all my agar work @ 18 grams/1000ml

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #17485559 - 01/02/13 10:27 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I use stamets antibiotic MEA. Fungi.com


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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Amanita virosa]
    #17485611 - 01/02/13 10:38 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Lab grade vs food grade agar. There is simply a purity standard for all lab grade reagents including agar which would be higher than say food grade or commercial grade reagents. Since we are sterilizing the agar the purity standard is somewhat irrelevant. If it gels well it's fine for agar work. I have been using food grade agar from www.bulkfoods.com @25/lb five lb minimum and it works great for all my agar work @ 18 grams/1000ml




I go with 20g / L ... Actually I never make that much. I always make 10g / 500ml.

I have never been to Aloha but talk on the phone with John every once in a while. He said about the same thing as OICU812 had mentioned to but the only difference was he told me about Tic GUms after mentioning FP. I am not positive about it but I think that may be where Paul gets his agar from. :shrug:

The only reason I melt them together before sterilizing is because I only run .5-1 liter at a time and it's nothing to pour some cold water into a pot and bring it to 180 degrees and stir it before loading it into the PC.

Obviously it distributes fine while sterilizing. I just do it mostly out of habit. For some reason I like to see the solution mixed properly before sealing the lid on the PC.

It literally takes all of 5 minutes.

Like AV said, lab grade agar is 100% pure agar. It has absolutely no fillers or preservatives at all.

Food grade is definitely fine for culture work so long as it is preservative free.

I have had some problems with food grade agar with preservatives in the past which is what led me to stat going with the high end stuff.

It is very expensive but the way I use it I only go through a pound a year and that is if I am busy so I don't mind spending a little extra on the good stuff. :smile:

If any of you guys have actual businesses pertaining to fingi you can definitely get a free sample.

I own myco-tek.org and they sent me a pound to try when I first started using their agar.

Like I said up thread... After using it I wouldn't go back.

It actually smells different. Almost like bleach. It is some very clean stuff. :smile:

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17485736 - 01/02/13 11:06 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
I have been using food grade agar from www.bulkfoods.com @25/lb five lb minimum and it works great for all my agar work.




I use their agar as well. I bought 5 pounds about a year and a half ago, and it looks like I've got around a pound of it left. I go through a lot of agar.


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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17485780 - 01/02/13 11:17 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

That is a pretty good price, :smile:

The 50 pound bag of RS-100 from Tic Gums works out to about 30 bucks a pound but that is 1/3rd more expensive than their regular food grade agar.

The food grade goes for about 1000 for a 50 pound bag so it is only 20 bucks a pound but you have to buy 50 pounds.

I don't know about a 50 pound bag sitting around,.

I might have to go in on it with someone for that order.....

I may order a 3 ounce jar of the BF agar just to try it out.

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: JML]
    #17486727 - 01/02/13 02:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

JML said:
I use stamets antibiotic MEA. Fungi.com




Why antibiotic?


--------------------
--------------
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: OICU812]
    #17486976 - 01/02/13 03:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

It slows the growth of bacteria and other contams.

It is used to make isolating wild genetics from fruit bodies a little easier.....

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InvisibleFischer
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17487259 - 01/02/13 04:25 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ProfessorPinHead said:I may order a 3 ounce jar of the BF agar just to try it out.




I notice that TIC Gums has a place to request a sample.  I wouldn't be a dick and do it just to try and score some free stuff, but if anyone were looking at finding/switching to a different product, that'd be a good way to see if it were worth the extra expense.

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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17487449 - 01/02/13 05:02 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ProfessorPinHead said:
It slows the growth of bacteria and other contams.

It is used to make isolating wild genetics from fruit bodies a little easier.....



:thumbup:


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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: ProfessorPinHead]
    #17487545 - 01/02/13 05:20 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ProfessorPinHead said:
It slows the growth of bacteria and other contams.

It is used to make isolating wild genetics from fruit bodies a little easier.....




Sounded like JML was using it as their general use agar.  I have some also, but was taught not to use it unless contamination issues arose.


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"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" --Benjamin Franklin

"Those who give up liberty for security won't have, or deserve, either.". . . Benjamin Franklin
----> Read: The Fight of our Lives - Defeating the Ideological War Against the West - by Victor Davis Hanson

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OfflineTerry M
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Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 1,502
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: OICU812]
    #17487623 - 01/02/13 05:38 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:
Sounded like JML was using it as their general use agar.  I have some also, but was taught not to use it unless contamination issues arose.




Yup. Just like over-prescription of antibiotics for people. It encourages and promotes strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria, so you end up having worse bacteria problems overall.


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Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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OfflineAmanita virosa
botanist by day
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17487679 - 01/02/13 05:48 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Terry M said:
Quote:

OICU812 said:
Sounded like JML was using it as their general use agar.  I have some also, but was taught not to use it unless contamination issues arose.




Yup. Just like over-prescription of antibiotics for people. It encourages and promotes strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria, so you end up having worse bacteria problems overall.



ANd most of them don't work anyway, according to my micro bio buddy, because they are not heat stable.  He swears its a joke to autoclave antibiotics then expect them to work.  And this from a guy that has been studying antibiotics for 25 years.  Anybody got any insite on that cause we had this long drawn out discussion about it today.

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OfflineTerry M
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Registered: 06/18/10
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Amanita virosa] * 1
    #17487759 - 01/02/13 06:05 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Amanita virosa said:
Quote:

Terry M said:
Quote:

OICU812 said:
Sounded like JML was using it as their general use agar.  I have some also, but was taught not to use it unless contamination issues arose.




Yup. Just like over-prescription of antibiotics for people. It encourages and promotes strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria, so you end up having worse bacteria problems overall.



ANd most of them don't work anyway, according to my micro bio buddy, because they are not heat stable.  He swears its a joke to autoclave antibiotics then expect them to work.  And this from a guy that has been studying antibiotics for 25 years.  Anybody got any insite on that cause we had this long drawn out discussion about it today.



Yes, most antibiotics break down under heat. That's why the one specific antibiotic used for agar is gentamicin sulfate. This IS stable during sterilization.


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Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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OfflineSillyputty67

Registered: 10/06/12
Posts: 2,239
Loc: Netherlands
Last seen: 9 years, 8 months
Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17487817 - 01/02/13 06:15 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I saw one dude with a tek on here where he added fish aquarium antibiotic fresh outta the PC. Kinda like RR adds snake venom.


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1) Everything I ever posted or say is a lie.

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OfflineTerry M
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #17487894 - 01/02/13 06:34 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

malicom said:
I saw one dude with a tek on here where he added fish aquarium antibiotic fresh outta the PC. Kinda like RR adds snake venom.




Yes, that's gentamicin sulfate. It's used to treat bacterial infections in fish.


--------------------
Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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OfflineProfessorPinHead
Trapped in the Archives....
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17488431 - 01/02/13 08:14 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Terry M said:

Yes, most antibiotics break down under heat. That's why the one specific antibiotic used for agar is gentamicin sulfate. This IS stable during sterilization.






It still doesn't work all that well though. I've only dabbled with the stuff but it only slowed the bacteria that I was dealing with down.

This was helpful to get it to the next plate faster but didn't stop the growth of anything from my experience.

It's kind of like a cheat sheet on a test.

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OfflineJML
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Registered: 08/18/09
Posts: 347
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: OICU812]
    #17488597 - 01/02/13 08:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

OICU812 said:
Quote:

JML said:
I use stamets antibiotic MEA. Fungi.com




Why antibiotic?



I kept getting bacterial contams. Thought I would used it just in case my syringes were bad. Has worked well so far


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OfflineTerry M
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Registered: 06/18/10
Posts: 1,502
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Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: JML]
    #17488668 - 01/02/13 08:53 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Gentamicin only kills gram-negative bacteria. :frown:


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Liberté, égalité, humidité.

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InvisibleFischer
Teonanacatalyst
I'm a teapot

Registered: 06/03/10
Posts: 565
Loc: Downunder
Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Terry M]
    #17507716 - 01/06/13 03:40 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

In case anyone's interested, here's TIC Gum's online store for small quantities (I presume one pound, from what I was told, but I'll let y'all know when I receive it)

https://qnet.e-quantum2k.com/~brite/Custom/1145/RETAIL/cgi-bin/nph-main.cgi

Comparatively exxy, but it's a hobby for me so it's not an issue.

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OfflineProfessorPinHead
Trapped in the Archives....
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Re: What type of commercial agar is most suitable? [Re: Fischer]
    #17509183 - 01/06/13 08:37 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

That's excellent. I'll keep my eye out to see how you like it.

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