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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"?
    #1738540 - 07/22/03 04:39 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Anyone got a few doubts about the idea of Saddams sons being killed in a "gun-battle"? The last I heard Uday was crippled and needed a wheelchair to get around. Are we talking "gun-battle" or execution?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738563 - 07/22/03 04:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Poor, poor Uday.

Anyway, I'm not believing initial reports of anything.



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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
Posts: 3,095
Loc: Jacksonville,FL
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738603 - 07/22/03 05:01 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah,I'm not believing anything yet.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: monoamine]
    #1738609 - 07/22/03 05:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)



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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738627 - 07/22/03 05:09 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Does it really matter whether if it was a gun battle or execution? Anyway they were both pieces of shit one was a professional torturer the other was a serial rapist. Its sad to see two people killed but if I had to see two peeps killed these are the ones I would want to see dead.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738637 - 07/22/03 05:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I may be missing something...but how....exactly is it sad?!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738646 - 07/22/03 05:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

CENTCOM just made it official.




:grin: happy, happy, Joy, Joy. (if it's true)


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleangryshroom
Stranger
 User Gallery

Registered: 12/18/01
Posts: 7,264
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738666 - 07/22/03 05:26 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

professional torturer the other was a serial rapist.




Im not singling you out personally, but... Its interesting how we perceive things in america. Do we know this for fact, or did we hear this from the media?

He's declared evil just because he was Saddams son!


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738675 - 07/22/03 05:29 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Qusay's 14 year old son may also be dead, did he deserve that? They apparently called in a helicopter strike on the house before entering, sounds to me like they didn't really intend to capture anyone.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (07/22/03 05:30 PM)


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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Edame]
    #1738707 - 07/22/03 05:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, it WAS a gun battle. They're saying it was a 6-hour gun battle. SIX FUCKING HOURS. Those guys were regular terminators or something... they held off all those troops for 6 hours.

Anyway, I am not convinced. Why were they together? Why did they only have one bodyguard each? Why were they in Mosul, a Kurdish area? This is going to smell fishy until they can produce bodies. And it took 6 hours? Wow--those four guys were some bad asses!!!!


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: angryshroom]
    #1738716 - 07/22/03 05:43 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

did we hear this from the media?





Info available on Human Rights Watch website. Amnesty Internetional, too.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Edame]
    #1738717 - 07/22/03 05:44 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I guess this means it's unlikely Saddam will be taken alive. With what he's got on Rumsfield, Reagan and Bush Snr why would they take the chance of him ever testifying.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: angryshroom]
    #1738749 - 07/22/03 05:57 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

actually these are facts that were reported several years back. Hundreds of people have claimed this after claiming and getting political asylum in various countries. Alot of Iraqiswere too scared to say such claims during the process of being granted PA, and waited till after it was granted to tell their stories. Do a search on Udah and Qusay and torture and see how many websites that deal in testimonies of people that had run ins with them. Anyone whos favorite torture device is an Iron Maiden is a sick fuck in my book. But thats just me. Theres over 6000 posts dealing with just Uday's gift of torture so figure it out for yourself. I'm not saying everyone he ran into he killed, but he evidently had a thing with torturing people.

No profile of Uday Hussein, the psychotic elder son of Iraq's deposed dictator, is complete without a mention of his sadistic reign as Iraq's sports czar. In his capacity as head of Iraq's Olympic committee and also of its soccer federation, he is known to have ordered the torture of athletes who performed below his expectations.

A bad day on the field for a player on the national soccer squad could result in savage retribution: Players had their feet scalded and toenails ripped off for failing to win tournaments. Allegations of torture had even resulted in investigations by international sports governing bodies, most notably soccer's FIFA, but these had failed to produce conclusive evidence ? hardly surprising, since no player would dare admit to suffering such abuse, for fear of even worse.

On Saturday, however, TIME found what may be the first tangible evidence pointing to torture in Uday's own backyard, the administrative compound of the Iraqi national Olympic committee in central Baghdad. Hidden in a pile of dead leaves, not 20 yards from the building housing the Iraqi Football Association, was that must-have appliance of every medieval dungeon: an iron maiden.

Around 7 feet tall, three feet across and deep enough to house a grown man, the sarcophagus-shaped device is essentially a large, metal closet with long spikes on the inside door that closes to impale its victim. Its name derives from its mummy shape and the beatific woman's face depicted on its headpiece. The one found in Baghdad was clearly worn from use, its nails having lost some of their sharpness. It lay on its side within view of Uday's first-floor offices in the soccer association. Ironically, the torture device was brought to TIME's attention by a group of looters who had been stripping the compound of anything of value. They had left behind the iron maiden, believing it to be worthless.





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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738760 - 07/22/03 06:02 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

So why not just say we shot him in his wheelchair? Why come up with all the shit about 4 people putting up a "gun-battle"?

And lets face it, if you want to learn about torture you could go straight to the acknowledged masters - the Reagan funded CIA trained contras.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738771 - 07/22/03 06:06 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You don't think 4 people in a fortified position can put up a decent fight?


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738774 - 07/22/03 06:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

My point is it makes for a better story. Believe me I'm glad hes dead and hope he suffered. Alex if you honestly think he was a good guy that you would like to pal around with then your as sick as him.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738783 - 07/22/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Alex if you honestly think he was a good guy that you would like to pal around with then your as sick as him.

wtf?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738784 - 07/22/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I have a spot when I shoot paintballs that I can take out at least 4 or 5 people before I get hit. More than likely they didnt want to use grenades due to the fact they wanted a quick ID of who they killed.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
 User Gallery

Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
Loc: mndfreeze's puppet army
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738786 - 07/22/03 06:10 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex if you honestly think he was a good guy that you would like to pal around with then your as sick as him.



I don't think anyone here is saying that either of them is a good guy. It's just that, as with Waco, the official story seems a little suspicious.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738791 - 07/22/03 06:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

These 4 people in a fortified position put up a fight for 6 FUCKING HOURS!!!! They put up more than a gun-battle Alex... they put up the fight of their lives.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738794 - 07/22/03 06:12 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

a. yeah they would want to keep them as intact as possible
b. they'd want to do it in the safest manner possible, taking their time.


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738797 - 07/22/03 06:13 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Maybe I didnt read your response right I thought you were stating that they shouldnt have killed those guys. I personally would have liked to see them go to a military tribunal but they knew they were gonna be hung anyway why not go out fighting. My bad if that wasnt your intention.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738799 - 07/22/03 06:14 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Meat_Log_Smurf said:
I have a spot when I shoot paintballs that I can take out at least 4 or 5 people before I get hit. More than likely they didnt want to use grenades due to the fact they wanted a quick ID of who they killed.




Paintball is great, but they're not reporting any US deaths from this gun-battle... apparently they just held the guys off... and what you say about grenades sounds likely.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738803 - 07/22/03 06:15 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You don't think 4 people in a fortified position can put up a decent fight?

Including one in a wheelchair and one 14 year old? We know 3 of them were civilians. How effective a "gunbattle" are they going to put up?

To put it into some perspective, a small group of British SAS went into a building occupied by 5 trained terrorists armed to the teeth surrounded by hostages. All the terrorists were killed and no hostages were harmed and it was all over within about 2 minutes. No need to call in the helicopters whatsoever.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1738806 - 07/22/03 06:15 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Four coalition troops were wounded in the six-hour operation at a residence on the northern edge of Mosul, Sanchez said. (from cnn)


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738813 - 07/22/03 06:17 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

sorry, I forgot that 14 year olds arent allowed to fire guns in Iraq.

You are comparing apples and oranges.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738817 - 07/22/03 06:18 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Hidden in a pile of dead leaves, not 20 yards from the building housing the Iraqi Football Association, was that must-have appliance of every medieval dungeon: an iron maiden.

Looks like Uday was behind the times. Here's the latest news on the torture scene:

Documents released on 28 January by the CIA confirm that the agency taught mental torture and coercion techniques to at least five Latin American security forces in the early 1980s. The documents also allege to have "repudiated" such training in 1985. A 1983 CIA manual teaches foreign agents the art of extracting information from people without yanking out their fingernails, burning the soles of their feet with the business end of a lit cigarette or hanging them from meat hooks. Claiming that physical torture is counterproductive, it advises against such methods. It suggests, instead the use of fear, exhaustion, solitary confinement and other forms of psychological duress designed to induce intense anxiety and to "destroy [the subject's] capacity to endure" interrogation.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738825 - 07/22/03 06:21 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

sorry, I forgot that 14 year olds arent allowed to fire guns in Iraq.

So are you saying that you can't do anything with 4 people in a Villa - including highly important members of the Saddam government who would have one helluva good idea where these mysterious "weapons of mass destruction" are - other than blast the fuck out of them with helicopters? That's the apex of american military planning?

Before calling in the helicopters how about y'know starting with tear gas?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738832 - 07/22/03 06:23 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think that's a good point.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738837 - 07/22/03 06:24 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I'm under the impression that most of the battle was small arms fire, but helicopters were employed to bust up some of the barricade. Sounds like a good enough plan to me. What would you have done?


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738845 - 07/22/03 06:27 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Before calling in the helicopters how about y'know starting with tear gas?




Silly as it may sound, we are not allowed to use tear gas in any military action.


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738851 - 07/22/03 06:29 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Could be because they already found over 16,000 gas masks that they might have figured Saddams sons might have just a couple with them. Maybe they did fire gas? Maybe they didnt, who cares? If I want to soften up a house or building fuck ya I will call in an Apache. After the dust settles you get a little better view of what your target is. Like Saddams sons are gonna let us take them into custody anyway. If they had a bullet left in their guns they wouldnt. They knew what was coming after the first shot was fired.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738854 - 07/22/03 06:29 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Why the fuck not?!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738868 - 07/22/03 06:34 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

It's against the Geneva Conventions, which considers it a chemical weapon. Same reason we cant use hollowpoints.

We can use it on our own guys as a training aid, though. I've been tear gassed many times. It sucks but it's bearable.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738951 - 07/22/03 07:01 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

But why can't you use it? Napalm is also not usable under the same convention right?...but you said tear gas is bearable, so why not use it?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738962 - 07/22/03 07:07 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Napalm isn't in there, to my knowledge, so flame-throwers are OK. We don't use them anymore, anyway.

After WWI they made chemical weapons verboten, period. Silly to put CS gas in there, imho.


Quote:

A legal expert at the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva said the use of napalm or fuel air bombs was not illegal "per se" because the US was not a signatory to the 1980 weapons convention which prohibits and restricts certain weapons. "But the US has to apply the basic principles of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and take all precautions to protect civilians. In the case of napalm and fuel air bombs, these are special precautions because these are area weapons, not specific weapons," said Dominique Loye, the committee's adviser on weapons and IHL.




http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/21/1047749944836.html


Edited by wingnutx (07/22/03 07:11 PM)


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738977 - 07/22/03 07:15 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Looks like Napalm was included in some conventions, that the US has not ratified, in 1980.

The chemical weapons ban is in the original that we've been signatories to since the end of WWI.

I don't think we use any napalm anymore, but we certainly do use white phosphorus and thermite. That's mainly for destroying equipment, though.


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Anonymous

Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1739119 - 07/22/03 08:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

here's the story. sounds credible to me. either way, i don't care how those guys died... they probably got a quicker and fairer death than they deserved.

_______________________________________________________

Saddam's Two Sons Killed in U.S. Raid

Saddam Hussein's sons Odai and Qusai were killed in a six-hour firefight Tuesday when U.S. forces, acting on a tip from an Iraqi informant, surrounded and then stormed a palatial villa in this northern Iraqi town, a senior American general said.

Four coalition soldiers were wounded and two other Iraqis were killed in the raid, but Saddam was not among them. The house belonged to one of Saddam's cousins, a key tribal leader in the region.

"We are certain that Odai and Qusai were killed today," said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez at a news conference in Baghdad. "The bodies were in such a condition where you could identify them."

The deaths of the sons could have a major impact on the Iraqi resistance, which has been mounting about a dozen attacks a day against U.S. occupation troops. The guerrillas are thought to be former military officers and Baath Party leaders loyal to Saddam and his family _ especially the sons, who played primary roles in the military and feared security services.

Both Odai and Qusai ranked second only to their father in the deposed regime, officials have said. They were Nos. 2 and 3 on the U.S. list of 55 top former Iraqi officials wanted by Washington. The United States had offered a $25 million reward for information leading to Saddam's capture and $15 million each for his sons.

In Washington, L. Paul Bremer, Iraq's top civilian administrator, said he did not want to comment on how the deaths of Saddam's sons would affect security in Iraq.

However, Bremer said: "It certainly is good news for the Iraqi people."

"This will contribute significantly to reducing attacks on coalition soldiers," said Ahmad Chalabi, a delegate from the Coalition Provisional Authority, speaking at the United Nations.

Asked whether the killing of the sons would reduce the incessant attacks on American forces, Sanchez said he thought the security situation now would improve.

"I believe very firmly this will have an effect. This will prove to the Iraqi people that these two members of the Iraqi regime will never come to power again," Sanchez said.

Hours after the raid in Mosul, gunfire erupted throughout Baghdad, making travel very dangerous. The shooting was believed to be celebratory as news of the killing of the sons spread through the capital.

"It's probably very appropriate that they would be celebrating about now," Sanchez said.

Fighting broke out after soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division surrounded the stone, columned villa.

When troops approached the building, gunmen inside opened fire with small arms. The "suspects barricaded themselves in the house" and "resisted fiercely," Sanchez said.

"They died in a fierce gunbattle," Sanchez added.

He told reporters that soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division were working on a tip from an Iraqi informant that the sons were present in the house.

Asked if the $15 million rewards would be paid, Sanchez said: "I would expect that it probably will happen."

According to witnesses in Mosul, a small force of American soldiers went to the house about 9 a.m. and asked permission to search it. The occupants refused, and the patrol withdrew until about 10 a.m., when 100 more soldiers arrived in 25 vehicles.

The Americans opened fire but received fierce return fire from inside the home, the witnesses said. Kiowa helicopters arrived and fired rockets into the villa. The interior of the house was destroyed and two adjacent homes were badly damaged.

Once the fighting died down, Iraqi police arrived to help the Americans search the building.

"When we saw the people in the house shooting back, we knew Odai and Qusai were there," said the 31-year-old Jamal.

Afterward, about 1,000 people gathered, some expressing delight, others cursing the Americans.

The soldiers removed four bodies and did not let photographers near enough to take pictures.

The building, in the al-Falah neighborhood, was left charred and smoldering, its high facade riddled with gaping holes from bullets and heavy weaponry. Kiowa helicopters roamed the sky.

Some Mosul civilians appeared to have been caught in the crossfire. It was not known how many people were injured, but several were taken to a hospital.

Officials gave conflicting reports on whether anyone was captured during the assault. The officials said they had no initial information that would suggest Saddam was present during the raid.

Experts conducted DNA tests after the bodies were flown from Mosul to another location, officials said.

Throughout the day, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld briefed President Bush personally about the assault.

Qusai was probably intended as Saddam's successor, according to U.S. intelligence officials. He ran much of Iraq's security apparatus, controlling several militias, internal security services and the military forces of the once-vaunted Republican Guard.

He was described as quiet and level, particularly compared to Odai, Saddam's eldest son, who had a reputation for brutality and flamboyance. Odai controlled Saddam's Fedayeen, the paramilitary force that fought U.S. troops during the war; many of its survivors are thought to be part of the ongoing guerrilla campaign in Iraq.

Odai also controlled information and propaganda in Saddam's Iraq, and was chairman of the country's Olympic committee.

Saddam has a third, younger son, according to some reports, and three daughters. All kept a low profile in his regime.

Mosul, a town 240 miles northwest of Baghdad that housed Iraqi army bases, is outside the so-called "Sunni Triangle" in central Iraq _ home to much of the remaining support for Saddam, a Sunni Muslim who used his Baathist Party to oppress the country's Shiite majority.

The triangle is also a center of anti-American resistance: In the latest attack, Tuesday, a U.S. soldier was killed and another wounded in an ambush along a dangerous road north of Baghdad. His death brought to 153 the number of U.S. troops killed in action since the March 20 start of war, six more than during the 1991 Gulf War.

The U.S. Central Command said the attackers used rocket-propelled grenades and small arms in the assault staged along the road between Balad, 50 miles north of Baghdad, and Ramadi, 60 miles west of the capital. It gave no other details.

The U.S.-led coalition's military occupation of Iraq has been met by constant armed Iraqi resistance, resulting in almost daily deaths of American troops. Many recent assaults have been staged with remote-controlled roadside explosions.

Before the announcement, White House officials were cautious in their assessments of whether the raid was successful.

Asked about reports of that Saddam's sons had been killed, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said he was "not in a position to confirm anything."

Given a series of failed strikes against Iraqi leaders since the war began March 20, U.S. officials clearly did not want to make any public claims that later prove untrue.

On April 7, Rumsfeld announced the death of Ali Hassan al-Majid, Saddam's first cousin and one of his bloodiest henchman, and showed reporters video of laser-guided bombs obliterating a house in Basra, Iraq's second city, where a tipster had told coalition forces he was staying.

But last month, U.S. military officials said that interrogations of Iraqi prisoners indicated al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali" for his use of mustard gas and other poisonous gases to kill thousands of northern Kurds during a 1988 rebellion, might be alive.

Twice during the war, information on Saddam's whereabouts was deemed solid enough that an airstrike was sent to kill him. But despite optimistic statements in the hours after each raid, U.S. officials now believe he is alive.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1739359 - 07/22/03 09:14 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I guess this means it's unlikely Saddam will be taken alive. With what he's got on Rumsfield, Reagan and Bush Snr why would they take the chance of him ever testifying.




Adjust the foil hat a bit Alex. Thanks for the laugh.

BTW, I am glad these guys are dead. I am also glad his son is dead. Judging from the rest of his family he was on his way to being a real nice guy. To bad they couldn't have kept them alive, and turned them over to a mob of Iraqis. Should have burned them out, and pulled every hair on their bodies out one at a time.


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1739440 - 07/22/03 09:41 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I guess this means it's unlikely Saddam will be taken alive. With what he's got on Rumsfield, Reagan and Bush Snr why would they take the chance of him ever testifying.





I too have the pictures of the Grassy Knoll. Alex together we will show the world Rumsfield was the shooter and Bush Sr. was the getaway driver.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1739526 - 07/22/03 10:03 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Meat_Log_Smurf said:
Quote:

Alex123 said:
I guess this means it's unlikely Saddam will be taken alive. With what he's got on Rumsfield, Reagan and Bush Snr why would they take the chance of him ever testifying.





I too have the pictures of the Grassy Knoll. Alex together we will show the world Rumsfield was the shooter and Bush Sr. was the getaway driver.



I have to admit that was pretty funny.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1739979 - 07/23/03 12:33 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I can't believe we are arguing here whether or not this was a gun-battle.... 6 FUCKING HOURS.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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InvisibleObserver
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: ]
    #1739987 - 07/23/03 12:38 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Experts conducted DNA tests after the bodies were flown from Mosul to another location, officials said.




Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly would they be comparing the DNA samples to?

I guess if they have DNA from someone else in the Hussein family other than these two it would make sense.

Anyone have a clue?


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1739993 - 07/23/03 12:39 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Man did you see that so called house, that wasn't a house that was a fortress it had a concrete exterior(or so it looked like it).


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1740077 - 07/23/03 01:20 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Our boys shot it up good. They took DNA samples, and are supposed to already have whatever they need to compare it to. I believe the identified them differently though. CNN said something about multiple methods.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Edame]
    #1740084 - 07/23/03 01:24 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I think that's a good point.

I think it's probably the strongest evidence yet that no-one seriously believes Saddam had any weapons of mass destruction. You have the two guys in the country who could tell you everything about where they were and it's of so little importance to you that you just kill them. If you actually believed for one second there were WMD in the country - that could fall into the hands of terrorists at any time - you would have captured them alive.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740087 - 07/23/03 01:26 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Should have burned them out, and pulled every hair on their bodies out one at a time.

You forgot their testicles - you want to do something nasty to their testicles too  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740101 - 07/23/03 01:33 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Should have burned them out, and pulled every hair on their bodies out one at a time.

You forgot their testicles - you want to do something nasty to their testicles too  :rolleyes: 




You can do all you want with their testicles Alex.

These two guys were evil murderers that deserved to die. I have no sympathy for them. They fired on our troops and our troops fired back for six hours. Maybe when they find Saddam you can go try to talk him out of the building. 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740108 - 07/23/03 01:36 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You're the guy who wants to tweezer all their body hair out man - I presume you'd be taking out every hair on their testicles while you were at it. Hey - whatever gets you through the night eh?  :smirk:

I have no sympathy for them

I don't think anyone gives a shit whether you do or not. The point is finding the WMD and these were two of the guys in the country most likely to know where they are.



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740117 - 07/23/03 01:41 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
You're the guy who wants to tweezer all their body hair out man - what about taking out every hair on their testicles?  :lol:

I have no sympathy for them

I don't think anyone gives a shit whether you do or not. The point is finding the WMD and these were two of the guys in the country most likely to know where they are.




Oh STFU with WMDs. Why would they have told us anything? Their fate was death no matter what and they knew it. We killed 2/3 of the plague that is the Hussein family, and all you can do is go back to the WMDs, and say it wasn't done right. This is a major victory. Saddam is next. Give our people a little credit for something once man. 


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740125 - 07/23/03 01:43 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

So what if there are WMD out there and a terrorist group is currently on their way to pick them up?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740135 - 07/23/03 01:45 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I don't know Alex. Somehow I doubt these two knew where every single bit of WMD was. You are assuming a lot, and the argument is weak. It is not like we were dealing with a couple of nuns that are willing to talk it out.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740162 - 07/23/03 01:51 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

If i was trying to find what happened to the WMD I think asking the leaders of the country would be pretty high up on my list.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740166 - 07/23/03 01:54 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Sure, but getting these guys without losing a bunch of our own would be higher on my list if I was in charge of the operation. Hopefully they can get Saddam the same way.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740171 - 07/23/03 01:55 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Sure, but getting these guys without losing a bunch of our own would be higher on my list if I was in charge of the operation. Hopefully they can get Saddam the same way.

I really don't want these guys alive anyway. I don't need them to be some kind of twisted reason for people to still try to kill our guys, or hear about how they are being mistreated.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740328 - 07/23/03 03:45 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

These guys were numbers 2 and 3 on Bush's big pop-up book of bad Iraqi men. Men much further down the list have been taken alive, and much publicity was made over their capture in the hopes of getting info on WMD. These guys undoubtedly had a wealth of information useful to the Americans, and now that the US is pretty much endorsing torture (not that I am), who knows what they could have found out. I think that's worth thinking about.



--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740357 - 07/23/03 04:21 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Oh STFU with WMDs.




I bet Bush would love to say that too. Go back to sleep America.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1740652 - 07/23/03 11:32 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I too have the pictures of the Grassy Knoll.

Off-topic i know but you arn't seriously saying you believe it was Lee Harvey Oswald from the book depository are you?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1740657 - 07/23/03 11:35 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

We tried to take them alive, and they shot three of our guys. So we backed out of the building and started shooting it up. We tried again, and they shot at our guys again. We then lit it up with 10 TOW missiles and killed the occupants. So, we did try to bring them out alive. They did not want to be brought out alive, so we had to kill them. What else can any of you complain about this op now?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740675 - 07/23/03 11:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You telling me the US army hasn't got men capable of taking out a cripple and a 14 year old from a Villa?

The SAS would do it in precisely 2 minutes.

Incidentally - seeing as someone informed the US who was in the building why not just put it under observation and take them out when they left or were asleep?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740682 - 07/23/03 11:46 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think it's probably the strongest evidence yet that no-one seriously believes Saddam had any weapons of mass destruction




No one except for Bill Clinton, UNSCOM, the UN Security Council, British, French, Israeli & American intelligence, and the Kurds who survived their use.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740699 - 07/23/03 11:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Oh please! We are talking about two of the three most wanted men there is. Say what you want about the SAS or whoever. You don't know what you are talking about. They were in a heavily fortified section of the house designed for this purpose exactly. That is why it took 10 TOW missiles to knock them out. Try going over some facts before you just assume you know more than the people on the ground.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740712 - 07/23/03 11:56 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

No one except for Bill Clinton, UNSCOM, the UN Security Council, British, French, Israeli & American intelligence, and the Kurds who survived their use.

No, we know he had them in 80's because the US was selling them to him then. The question is whether he had any 6 months ago.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740713 - 07/23/03 11:56 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The missiles were used principally to take out the bullet-proof glass on the 2nd floor & the reinforced concrete external walls.

This was not some open-air villa, it was designed to withstand a heavy attack. That's why they were hiding in it.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740725 - 07/23/03 12:00 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Oh please! We are talking about two of the three most wanted men there is.

Lets not get too carried away here. We're talking about a cripple in a wheelchair, a 14 year old, another pampered son of a dictator and a bodyguard.

We're not exactly taking on Chuck Norris here.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740739 - 07/23/03 12:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Go read UNSCOM's reports, Bill Clinton's or Tony Blair's statements, eyewitness accounts form Kurds, then get back to me.

Iraq obtained anthrax from a university agricultural department in the US, true. Please back up any claim that we sold him chemical weapons, because I call BS on that one.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740746 - 07/23/03 12:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You watch way too many James Bond movies.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740769 - 07/23/03 12:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Go read UNSCOM's reports, Bill Clinton's or Tony Blair's statements, eyewitness accounts form Kurds, then get back to me.

Could you read my last post and get back to me? We KNOW he had them in the 1980's because US corporations were selling them to him.

What "eyewitness" statements have you got from the Kurds in the last 10 years?

Please back up any claim that we sold him chemical weapons, because I call BS on that one.

Are you serious?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740772 - 07/23/03 12:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

if they do find weapons of mass destruction, will that really make a difference to you anyway?

something tells me you'll still be unsatisfied.

you do know about the nuclear weapons program components brought foward by an iraqi scientist not long ago, no? why do you think he was instructed to hide those parts instead of destroy them?

saddam hussein wasn't through with unconventional weaponry. do you think that had he been left in power, saddam hussein would have never again attempted the manufacture of a chemical or nuclear weapon?

the guy's a weasel and a survivalist. he had plenty of time to get rid (or hide) everything he wasn't supposed to have, in hopes that the US would go away, and then maybe in a few years he could be back in business.

how do you think hussein (post 1991) should have been dealt with?

do you think that there should have been weapons inspections?

what should have been done when he did not cooperate with the inspections?

one final note: uday was a serial murderer\rapist who was considered even by hussein to be too violent and unpredictable to be iraq's next ruler. qusay was only a little better. if after a 6 hour gunfight (and 4 wounded american soldiers), these guys didn't come out of the house, it's pretty clear that they aren't going to come out alive, no? i'm sure they knew it was the end, and they wanted to die fighting. they got what was coming to them.


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Anonymous

Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740778 - 07/23/03 12:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

US corporations were selling them to him.

WHICH US corporations were selling WHICH weapons?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740779 - 07/23/03 12:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You watch way too many James Bond movies.

I think it's you watching the bond movies. You make it sound like they were trying to take on Blofeld, Goldfinger and Oddjob instead of a cripple and a 14 year old.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740785 - 07/23/03 12:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I am serious. Back up your claim. Simply repeating it over and over does not suffice.

I will go dig up an eyewitness account by a Kurd who survived the sarin attacks.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740790 - 07/23/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Alright Alex, you obviously are either retarded or are not reading any of the posts. In either case, you have stated the same crap over and over in this thread.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: ]
    #1740791 - 07/23/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

you do know about the nuclear weapons program components brought foward by an iraqi scientist not long ago, no? why do you think he was instructed to hide those parts instead of destroy them?

He buried them in 1991. The fact that he never bothered digging them up since actually proves the exact opposite of what you are trying to say, Iraq clearly had no nuclear weapons programme for the last 12 years otherwise he'dve dug them up sooner. Understand?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740792 - 07/23/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The missiles were used principally to take out the bullet-proof glass on the 2nd floor & the reinforced concrete external walls.

This was not some open-air villa, it was designed to withstand a heavy attack. That's why they were hiding in it.




Why are we arguing about this. I'm glad they're dead and i don't give two shits how they were killed and how many people were involved, as long as they're dead.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740796 - 07/23/03 12:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes, I am serious. Back up your claim.

What are you talking about? My claim that Saddam had no WMD? In case you havn't heard they've been looking all over Iraq for them for the last 4 months and found precisely fuck-all. I'm not "claiming" anything - simply pointing out facts.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1740799 - 07/23/03 12:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ah, yes. Since your argument is weak and total BS, you must switch the subject to the WMDs yet again.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740802 - 07/23/03 12:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

GORAN SEDEQ was eight years old when he was gassed by Iraqi forces. ?It was like hell ? indescribable,? he said.

Mr Sedeq, a Kurd, is from Halabja, a town in northern Iraq close to the border with Iran. On March 16, 1988, during the Iran-Iraq war, President Saddam Hussein?s forces bombed the city with mustard and nerve gas, killing about 5,000 civilians in an attack designed to teach the rebellious Kurds the cost of siding with Iran. Thousands more have died since from injuries or related cancers and birth defects.

The rest is at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3463-431339,00.html


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740804 - 07/23/03 12:22 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

you're replying to Alex, right?


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740810 - 07/23/03 12:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your claim that US companies sold chemical weapons to Iraq.

'Pointing out a fact' is making a claim. Back it up.

BTW, your 2 statements seem to be somewhat in conflict.


Edited by wingnutx (07/23/03 12:27 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1740812 - 07/23/03 12:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

In either case, you have stated the same crap over and over in this thread.

I'm sorry but saying you can't capture a cripple and a 14 year old alive is utterly ridiculous. Read about what happened at a place called Entebbe and then get back to me. You'll be amazed.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740815 - 07/23/03 12:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

maybe he was waiting until the heat was off before he dug them up and started things up again... for the 12 years in question, he had weapons inspectors breathing down his neck... of course he didn't dig them up. understand?

do you think he wouldn't have ever dug them up?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740818 - 07/23/03 12:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Mr Sedeq, a Kurd, is from Halabja, a town in northern Iraq close to the border with Iran. On March 16, 1988

How many times have i got to repeat myself man? We KNOW he had them in 1988!!!  :rolleyes: 


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740826 - 07/23/03 12:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your claim that US companies sold chemical weapons to Iraq.

http://www.indybay.org/news/2002/03/119547.php
During the Iran-Iraq war, Iraq received the lion's share of American support because at the time Iran was regarded as the greater threat to U.S. interests. According to a 1994 Senate report, private American suppliers, licensed by the U.S. Department of Commerce, exported a witch's brew of biological and chemical materials to Iraq from 1985 through 1989. Among the biological materials, which often produce slow, agonizing death, were:

* Bacillus Anthracis, cause of anthrax.

* Clostridium Botulinum, a source of botulinum toxin.

* Histoplasma Capsulatam, cause of a disease attacking lungs, brain, spinal cord, and heart.

* Brucella Melitensis, a bacteria that can damage major organs.

* Clostridium Perfringens, a highly toxic bacteria causing systemic illness.

* Clostridium tetani, a highly toxigenic substance.


Also on the list: Escherichia coli (E. coli), genetic materials, human and bacterial DNA, and dozens of other pathogenic biological agents. "These biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction," the Senate report stated. "It was later learned that these microorganisms exported by the United States were identical to those the United Nations inspectors found and removed from the Iraqi biological warfare program."

The report noted further that U.S. exports to Iraq included the precursors to chemical-warfare agents, plans for chemical and biological warfare production facilities, and chemical-warhead filling equipment.

The exports continued to at least November 28, 1989, despite evidence that Iraq was engaging in chemical and biological warfare against Iranians and Kurds since as early as 1984.

The American company that provided the most biological materials to Iraq in the 1980s was American Type Culture Collection of Maryland and Virginia, which made seventy shipments of the anthrax-causing germ and other pathogenic agents, according to a 1996 Newsday story.

Other American companies also provided Iraq with the chemical or biological compounds, or the facilities and equipment used to create the compounds for chemical and biological warfare. Among these suppliers were the following:

* Alcolac International, a Baltimore chemical manufacturer already linked to the illegal shipment of chemicals to Iran, shipped large quantities of thiodiglycol (used to make mustard gas) as well as other chemical and biological ingredients, according to a 1989 story in The New York Times.

* Nu Kraft Mercantile Corp. of Brooklyn (affiliated with the United Steel and Strip Corporation) also supplied Iraq with huge amounts of thiodiglycol, the Times reported.

* Celery Corp., Charlotte, NC

* Matrix-Churchill Corp., Cleveland, OH (regarded as a front for the Iraqi government, according to Representative Henry Gonzalez, Democrat of Texas, who quoted U.S. intelligence documents to this effect in a 1992 speech on the House floor).


The following companies were also named as chemical and biological materials suppliers in the 1992 Senate hearings on "United States export policy toward Iraq prior to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait":

* Mouse Master, Lilburn, GA

* Sullaire Corp., Charlotte, NC

* Pure Aire, Charlotte, NC

* Posi Seal, Inc., N. Stonington, CT

* Union Carbide, Danbury, CT

* Evapco, Taneytown, MD

* Gorman-Rupp, Mansfield, OH


Additionally, several other companies were sued in connection with their activities providing Iraq with chemical or biological supplies: subsidiaries or branches of Fisher Controls International, Inc., St. Louis; Rhone-Poulenc, Inc., Princeton, NJ; Bechtel Group, Inc., San Francisco; and Lummus Crest, Inc., Bloomfield, NJ, which built one chemical plant in Iraq and, before the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait in August 1990, was building an ethylene facility. Ethylene is a necessary ingredient for thiodiglycol

In 1994, a group of twenty-six veterans, suffering from what has come to be known as Gulf War Syndrome, filed a billion-dollar lawsuit in Houston against Fisher, Rhone-Poulenc, Bechtel Group, and Lummus Crest, as well as American Type Culture Collection (ATCC) and six other firms, for helping Iraq to obtain or produce the compounds which the veterans blamed for their illnesses. By 1998, the number of plaintiffs has risen to more than 4,000 and the suit is still pending in Texas.

A Pentagon study in 1994 dismissed links between chemical and biological weapons and Gulf War Syndrome. Newsday later disclosed, however, that the man who headed the study, Nobel laureate Joshua Lederberg, was a director of ATCC. Moreover, at the time of ATCC's shipments to Iraq, which the Commerce Department approved, the firm's CEO was a member of the Commerce Department's Technical Advisory Committee, the paper found.

A larger number of American firms supplied Iraq with the specialized computers, lasers, testing and analyzing equipment, and other instruments and hardware vital to the manufacture of nuclear weapons, missiles, and delivery systems. Computers, in particular, play a key role in nuclear weapons development. Advanced computers make it feasible to avoid carrying out nuclear test explosions, thus preserving the program's secrecy. The 1992 Senate hearings implicated the following firms:

* Kennametal, Latrobe, PA

* Hewlett Packard, Palo Alto, CA

* International Computer Systems, CA, SC, and TX

* Perkins-Elmer, Norwalk, CT

* BDM Corp., McLean, VA

* Leybold Vacuum Systems, Export, PA

* Spectra Physics, Mountain View, CA

* Unisys Corp., Blue Bell, PA

* Finnigan MAT, San Jose, CA

* Scientific Atlanta, Atlanta, GA

* Spectral Data Corp., Champaign, IL

* Tektronix, Wilsonville, OR

* Veeco Instruments, Inc., Plainview, NY

* Wiltron Company, Morgan Hill, CA

The House report also singled out: TI Coating, Inc., Axel Electronics, Data General Corp., Gerber Systems, Honeywell, Inc., Digital Equipment Corp., Sackman Associates, Rockwell Collins International, Wild Magnavox Satellite Survey, Zeta Laboratories, Carl Schenck, EZ Logic Data, International Imaging Systems, Semetex Corp., and Thermo Jarrell Ash Corporation.

Some of the companies said later that they had no idea Iraq might ever put their products to military use. A spokesperson for Hewlett Packard said the company believed that the Iraqi recipient of its shipments, Saad 16, was an institution of higher learning. In fact, in 1990 The Wall Street Journal described Saad 16 as "a heavily fortified, state-of-the-art complex for aircraft construction, missile design, and, almost certainly, nuclear-weapons research."


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740834 - 07/23/03 12:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What makes you think he unilaterally decided to divest himself of all his weapons, in a manner that would provide no proof to UNSCOM?

UNSCOM catalogued his weapons, and destroyed some of them. He then forced them out of the country, and the remaining anthrax and nerve agents disappeared. Hussein then claimed to have destroyed them of hif own volition, but without making any records.

You are awfully credible when it comes to claims by genocidal dictators. Why do you believe that these weapons no longer exist?


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Anonymous

Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740836 - 07/23/03 12:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

whew... that's quite a list... hewlett packard? i'm looking at my scanner and printer here... brought to me by the same company that sent weapons components to hussein... crazy.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740841 - 07/23/03 12:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your post does demonstrate that US companies sold a lot of raw materials and biological research cultures to Iraq. None of these are weapons in and of themselves, and require a huge investment in capital and research to weaponize.

This is similar to the claims that selling cold medicine make you a meth dealer.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740847 - 07/23/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

UNSCOM catalogued his weapons, and destroyed some of them. He then forced them out of the country, and the remaining anthrax and nerve agents disappeared. Hussein then claimed to have destroyed them of hif own volition, but without making any records.

Do you know chemical and biological weapons have shelf-lives?




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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740849 - 07/23/03 12:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I will concede that persons selling either cold medicine or E.Coli cultures may indeed have bad intent. Both are also useful medical products that are, and should remain, legal.



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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1740854 - 07/23/03 12:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Anthrax spores have a shelf life of hundreds of year when buried in the dirt.

Nerve agents have much shorter life spans, but can survive decades if properly stored. Most degrade relatively in sunlight.

I am a graduate of CBR (Chemical, Biological, Radiological) Warfare School. Basically that means I get to spend a lot of time sweating my ass off in a MOPP suit.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740912 - 07/23/03 01:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
GORAN SEDEQ was eight years old when he was gassed by Iraqi forces. ?It was like hell ? indescribable,? he said.

Mr Sedeq, a Kurd, is from Halabja, a town in northern Iraq close to the border with Iran. On March 16, 1988, during the Iran-Iraq war, President Saddam Hussein?s forces bombed the city with mustard and nerve gas, killing about 5,000 civilians in an attack designed to teach the rebellious Kurds the cost of siding with Iran. Thousands more have died since from injuries or related cancers and birth defects.

The rest is at:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3463-431339,00.html





What's interesting about this is that the US continued to support Saddam after this act and I believe even tried to cover it up and blame it on Iran.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Here you go: [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1740917 - 07/23/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Some ppl still claim Iran was to blame, and that the US covered that up.

IMHO, the evidence against Iraq is more credible.

http://www.the7thfire.com/Politics%20and%20History/GaseousLies.htm


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1740918 - 07/23/03 01:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I agree..... I think it's pretty much certain that Iraq did it.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1740940 - 07/23/03 01:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

When saddam destoyed his weapons, were there missle unacounted for or just chemicals?, because lots could have expired in the last ten years......missles wouldn't.


--------------------
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Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1740972 - 07/23/03 01:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Here are some select quotes for those of you with short memories (this isn't a direct reply to anyone):

Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.
Dick Cheney
Speech to VFW National Convention, Aug. 26, 2002

Right now, Iraq is expanding and improving facilities that were used for the production of biological weapons.
George W. Bush
Speech to U.N. General Assembly, Sept. 12, 2002

Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.
George W. Bush
Address to the Nation, March 17, 2003

One of our top objectives [now they claim it was never a main objective?] is to find and destroy the WMD. There are a number of sites.
Pentagon Spokeswoman Victoria Clark
Press Briefing, March 22, 2003

We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.
Donald Rumsfeld
ABC Interview, March 30, 2003
--------------------------------------------------

I'd also like to add that some of you talk about this gun battle like you were there, when in fact all of us are going from media reports or CENTCOM releases. I still don't think that they ever intended to capture those guys alive. The place was reportedly surrounded by 200 soldiers. So 200 soldiers, a bunch of helicopters and 10 TOW missiles to take out 4 people (not all of them may have been armed either). Lets face it, those guys weren't going anywhere. You have 4 people trapped in a house going nowhere fast, and the best they could think of was to pummel the place into submission?

There were also reports of Iraqi civilians being injured, and one Iraqi teenager killed in the crossfire, but as long as we got those murdering bastards I guess their sacrifice was worth it?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


Edited by Edame (07/23/03 02:00 PM)


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741083 - 07/23/03 02:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Jesus Alex take the aluminum foil off your windows and get some sun man. Your rhetoric and constant negative view on everything is tiresome. If I was as negative as you I would have left this earth along time ago. Damn dude Im not saying take everything at face value but shit if you think anything and everything any government does or says(except for the Iraqi government) is a lie then you need counseling.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1741150 - 07/23/03 02:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hang on, rewind a bit there buddy. When did I say everything the government says is a lie? We're talking about WMD in Iraq. Are you seriously saying Iraq has WMD?

The reality is they don't exist, surely on this matter you agree Bush was misleading us and killed thousands of people for specious reasons. I tend to think you need pretty overwhelming evidence before you start slaughtering people. If that's negative then hey, I'm negative.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741185 - 07/23/03 02:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

First of all none of your quotes has anything to do with this conversation. It is another diversion to WMDs, just like Alex's.

Quote:

I'd also like to add that some of you talk about this gun battle like you were there, when in fact all of us are going from media reports or CENTCOM releases.




And? I trust the CENTCOM release. Why would they lie about it. They tried to kill them, by just bombing a location into submission before.

Quote:

I still don't think that they ever intended to capture those guys alive. The place was reportedly surrounded by 200 soldiers. So 200 soldiers, a bunch of helicopters and 10 TOW missiles to take out 4 people (not all of them may have been armed either). Lets face it, those guys weren't going anywhere. You have 4 people trapped in a house going nowhere fast, and the best they could think of was to pummel the place into submission?




This argument has already been covered a few times in this thread. We called for them to come out on a bullhorn, and went in the building. They started shooting at our guys and injured them, so we pulled back. We shot up the place for a while, and tried again. Again, they shot at our guys. At this point we know they are not coming out peacefully, so we blew them to hell. Pretty simple really, even if you refuse to see the logic.

Quote:

There were also reports of Iraqi civilians being injured, and one Iraqi teenager killed in the crossfire, but as long as we got those murdering bastards I guess their sacrifice was worth it?




I have not seen mention of this though. Crossfire is just that. It could have come from the building, who knows? Any reasonable person would get the hell out of dodge when they see a bunch of troops pull up and surround a place. Again, I have not seen these reports, or heard anything about it on the news.


Edited by shakta (07/23/03 03:11 PM)


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1741188 - 07/23/03 02:58 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

What am I doing wrong with the quotes?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1741209 - 07/23/03 03:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Try not using caps.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1741214 - 07/23/03 03:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I still don't think that they ever intended to capture those guys alive. The place was reportedly surrounded by 200 soldiers. So 200 soldiers, a bunch of helicopters and 10 TOW missiles to take out 4 people (not all of them may have been armed either). Lets face it, those guys weren't going anywhere. You have 4 people trapped in a house going nowhere fast, and the best they could think of was to pummel the place into submission?



Like that. ^^^^^^


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1741258 - 07/23/03 03:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Pretty simple really, even if you refuse to see the logic.

It's only simple if you havn't the faintest idea of military tactics. It's completly ridiculous to call in helicopters to take on a cripple in a wheelchair in a Villa who is the most valuable intelligence source in the country apart from Saddam. Your local cops could have made a better job of it than that.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741283 - 07/23/03 03:25 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I never realized that people in wheelchairs were so helpless they can't pull a trigger or roll grenades downstairs.

Perhaps in your infinite wisdom you could supply us with a set of plans for the house and tip us off as to how the SAS would have done it. With great detail please.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741291 - 07/23/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

It's only simple if you havn't the faintest idea of military tactics.




OK, I'm calling you out on this one. Please state for us your military training and experience.

Mine is just basic infantry training, in which they teach us to call in a heavy weapons platoon or air strike when confronted with a hardened target.

You must have some serious snoopin-n-poopin specops experience going for you, since you see an obvious easy way to take out an armored building without needlessly risking your troop's lives.


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Anonymous

Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741297 - 07/23/03 03:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

ok... i can understand the intelligence source idea... uday and qusay could have possibly provided vital intel. but i really doubt they would have. what information do you think they would have, and would they really spill it?

i think that they probably didn't know much, and what they did know, they'd never tell.

they had a chance to surrender and be taken alive. they made it clear that they had no intentions of being taken alive when they fought any attempts to arrest them for 6 hours. so rather than further endanger american troops for a couple of spoiled brat despotic monsters, an airstrike was called in. i think they made the right call.

we've got a couple alternatives here:

1. uday and qusay were cornered. they were given a chance to surrender but didn't. they fought back for 6 hours. after weighing out the situation, our military decided that it would be prudent to call in an airstrike and kill them (remember, they DID give them plenty of oppurtunity to surrender and be taken alive).

2. the military never wanted to take uday and qusay alive. they had orders from the top to kill them, because the bush administration was worried that once aprehended, they might have some dirt on them. instead, they hastily called in an airstrike, killing a cripple and a 14 year old boy who would have been a valuable intelligence source in order to cover their own asses.

i find situation #1 a tad more believable.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: ]
    #1741311 - 07/23/03 03:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

i find situation #1 a tad more believable.


So I imagine, do most.

If #2 was what was wanted, they could have saved several hours and much ammo by just bombing the place to begin with.

That wouldn't make for much of a conspiracy though, would it?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741323 - 07/23/03 03:36 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

That wouldn't make for much of a conspiracy though, would it?





Wouldn't have gotten 4 of our guys shot, either. I'd approve of it except for the fact that we need their corpses in recognizable form.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1741336 - 07/23/03 03:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

First of all none of your quotes has anything to do with this conversation. It is another diversion to WMDs, just like Alex's.

I didn't bring it up, people are giving Alex shit about them [WMDs] and I happen to agree with a lot of the points he's made. One of them happens to be that it increasingly looks like the US and UK governments deceived people about the reasons for going to war. If they are willing to engage in deception over a war, then they are just as likely to use deception in other areas. How can we trust what they say?

I trust the CENTCOM release. Why would they lie about it. They tried to kill them, by just bombing a location into submission before.

See above.

This argument has already been covered a few times in this thread. We called for them to come out on a bullhorn, and went in the building. They started shooting at our guys and injured them, so we pulled back. We shot up the place for a while, and tried again. Again, they shot at our guys. At this point we know they are not coming out peacefully, so we blew them to hell. Pretty simple really, even if you refuse to see the logic.


The point may have been covered, but we can still discuss it as none of us are in possession of the facts. You again use 'we' as a reference when you weren't there, you only know what you were told happened. Have you ever heard of a seige by the way? These guys don't apear to have been going anywhere.

I have not seen mention of this though. Crossfire is just that. It could have come from the building, who knows? Any reasonable person would get the hell out of dodge when they see a bunch of troops pull up and surround a place. Again, I have not seen these reports, or heard anything about it on the news.

There's a mention of the people injured in the crossfire here:

Quote:

An Iraqi teenage boy was also killed in the crossfire, and several Iraqi civilians were wounded. One US soldier was shot in the chest but was said to be in a stable condition.




Just to clarify, I'm not sad that Saddam's sons are dead, I'm just sad at people's apparent bloodlust when they hear about this. All of a sudden everyone's an armchair judge and jury. Those men could have provided vital information, and they could have been made to stand trial for crimes against humanity. Instead everyone seems to be perfectly happy that the US can be judge, jury and executioner without any need for a trial, just blow the shit out of them instead. How does this promote the American way of Freedom and Justice for all?


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741353 - 07/23/03 03:43 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

You must have some serious snoopin-n-poopin specops experience going for you, since you see an obvious easy way to take out an armored building without needlessly risking your troop's lives.

Have you ever heard of a military operation carried out at Entebbe? Read up on what happened. You'll be amazed.

Then compare the military problem presented by Entebbe to the military problem presented by 4 clueless amateurs with small-arms in a villa who are surrounded, and they don't even know you are aware of their presence.

And if you really can't see any other way around this problem than calling in the helicopters then there really is nothing more to say.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741379 - 07/23/03 03:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So in other words..... you can't answer, you have no floor plan, no idea how the inside of the building was laid out or fortified, and you have no idea how it could have been done.

Bravo.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741387 - 07/23/03 03:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Evidently neither could the US.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741395 - 07/23/03 03:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Edame said:
Evidently neither could the US.



Perhaps because other than starving them out, or doing just what we did, there were no viable alternatives?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741408 - 07/23/03 03:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

All I can say is it's a good job you wern't in charge at Entebbe!  :smirk:

"No, it's no good, there's defiately no viable alternatives, lets just bomb everyone.."



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741432 - 07/23/03 03:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So in other words..... you can't answer, you have no floor plan, no idea how the inside of the building was laid out or fortified, and you have no idea how it could have been done.

After you've read about Entebbe, read up on the operation carried out by the SAS at the Iranian Embassy.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741442 - 07/23/03 03:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Pretty much. He is talking out of his ass as usual. The building was not a 'villa'. It was a fortified building full of concrete and bulletproof glass. The area they were in was a compound that took multiple anti-tank missile attacks to destroy.

I would hardly call these two and a bodyguard amateurs either. That is not the point. It does not take much to shoot at people from within a freaking virtual bank vault.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741443 - 07/23/03 03:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

At Entebbe all the terrorists were killed. Same with the SAS operation you referred to. They didn't capture anyone, and the only people that left alive were the ones that were not resisting.

Your own example works against you.

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/Terrorism/entebbe.html

All Hostage Rescue Teams operate on the same principle: kill all hostage takers as quickly as possible, before they can harm a hostage.



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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741460 - 07/23/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

We'll never know now. I think what Alex is getting at, is that just about every country in the world has an equivalent of the SAS, or a civilian unit like a SWAT team. These kind of units specialise in close-combat and hostage type situations where they can infiltrate a building and subdue or kill any hostile forces inside. The units that the UK and US have are argueably some of the finest in the world at what they do, but they were not used in such a high profile mission (didn't they use such 'special forces' in the 'rescue' of Jessica Lynch?). Instead it appears that they sent in regular soldiers and airstrikes.

If this situation happened in the US, I doubt the same thing would happen. More than likely there would be a seige, and a SWAT team or equivalent would be sent in. I think that sounds like a viable alternative, but we'll never know.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741482 - 07/23/03 04:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I've read both. Are you insinuating that each situation is the same? Or do you just fail to see there are too many variables and unkowns for anyone to defend your position on this?

You weren't there.
You have no "special" info the rest of us don't.
You have no combat or police experience to draw upon. (as far as I know)
You have no knowledge of the layout and fortifications of the house.
You have no idea of what weapons those inside the house may have had.
You seem to think that because one was in a wheelchair he was totally unable to assist the others.

It would seem the only thing you do have here is your dislike for the American government and military.

Well that and your ability to endlessly write the word Entebbe.

Kudos on that by the way.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741494 - 07/23/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

I think that sounds like a viable alternative, but we'll never know.




And unless the US becomes a war zone, there is no comparison.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741495 - 07/23/03 04:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Hostage Rescue Teams do not even try to capture people, they kill them as swiftly as possible. You can even read the FBI HRT's rules of engagement if you google them.

Also, try reading Dick Marcinco's account of assembling and training Seal Team 6, the navy's HRT/Anti-terrorist Team. 'Rogue Warrior' is his book on it.

Snatch missions can be done, but not against a cornered enemy. Even with suprise it's a very bad bet that you'll take your guy alive.


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OfflineBillMcShroom
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741526 - 07/23/03 04:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I would just like to say i agree with wingnutx on his points but just to correct him there was one terrorist captured at the Iranian Embassy because he pretended to be a hostage. He is currently still in prison. I would also like to point out that Alex's argument that the guys should have been taken alive would never have been done by the SAS as their policy is if it has a gun it dies, fast. Also how exactly would they storm a fortified villa and still maintain the element of surprise and speed.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741542 - 07/23/03 04:18 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I know that hostage takers are usually shot when a building is stormed, but these people were second only to Saddam himself in terms of power and information.  The terrorists in the Russian theatre were incapacitated by some kind of gas or agent, they were executed while they were unconcious.  I'm just offering possible alternatives, what's done is done and nothing I say will change that, I'm just speculating.

luv, combat was declared over back on May 1st, Iraq isn't officially a war-zone any more, it's an occupied country.  Anyways, I was just hypothesising. :smile: 


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: BillMcShroom]
    #1741587 - 07/23/03 04:31 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Also how exactly would they storm a fortified villa and still maintain the element of surprise and speed.

The guy who owned the villa was the guy who sold them out for 20 million. He could've just given someone the key.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741597 - 07/23/03 05:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Brilliant. They should recruit you as a Delta operator.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1741673 - 07/23/03 06:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:

This argument has already been covered a few times in this thread. We called for them to come out on a bullhorn, and went in the building. They started shooting at our guys and injured them, so we pulled back. We shot up the place for a while, and tried again. Again, they shot at our guys. At this point we know they are not coming out peacefully, so we blew them to hell. Pretty simple really, even if you refuse to see the logic.




If they weren't going anywhere, logic would suggest waiting them out, as hunger would eventually force them to come out to fight, or make them to weak to stand up.

...would that have not been prudent?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741683 - 07/23/03 06:08 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luv, combat was declared over back on May 1st, Iraq isn't officially a war-zone any more, it's an occupied country. Anyways, I was just hypothesising.



Actually, with a bit of research I believe you'll find the war has not been declared to be over.

Major combat is over is how I believe it was phrased. I seem to recall it wasn't specifically so it wouldn't be officially an occupied country.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: BillMcShroom]
    #1741694 - 07/23/03 06:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

BillMcShroom said:
I would just like to say i agree with wingnutx on his points but just to correct him there was one terrorist captured at the Iranian Embassy because he pretended to be a hostage. He is currently still in prison.




What a smart guy!..seriously, good for him, thats quite an accomplishment!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Edame]
    #1741700 - 07/23/03 06:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luv, combat was declared over back on May 1st, Iraq isn't officially a war-zone any more




"Major Combat Operations" are over. That means no large scale battles between armies, armored units, etc...


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741713 - 07/23/03 06:16 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Why wouldn't they wait them out?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741737 - 07/23/03 06:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

For one thing, they were being shot at. 4 of our guys were shot, and the goons in the building opened up as soon as it was approached.

Me, I'd shoot back.

I think that it was deemed more important to get them dead or alive, than to try for live only and risk them getting away, or the conflict getting out of hand.


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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741752 - 07/23/03 06:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

A wise answer.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741779 - 07/23/03 06:32 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

How so?!...its obvious they were gunna put up resistance, so why get your titties in a twist when they don't come waltzing out at a toot of the horn?

Don't send anyone in there, fortify the surrounding area, and wate those bastards out....very simple. 

...and i don't even have SAS training! :shocked:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741784 - 07/23/03 06:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)



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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741790 - 07/23/03 06:34 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think that it was deemed more important to get them dead or alive, than to try for live only and risk them getting away, or the conflict getting out of hand.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741795 - 07/23/03 06:35 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think they should have blasted some Kenny G. They would have come out eventually,or more likely committed suicide.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741801 - 07/23/03 06:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

lmfao hed be dead within the first 5 seconds of a seige

Alex (on the bullhorn) : Okay Uday and Qusay we know you are in there. We will give you approximately 45 days to come out, after that we are coming in. If you need food or water just give us a buzz on our mobile. Please dont shoot at any of our soldiers or throw any grenades. We know you want to do the right thing so noone gets hurt. If you surrender I promise no harm will come to you. We have the key so if you will take the time to move the mountain of furniture and and grenade launcher pointed at the door we will come in and carefully handcuff you.


You have got to be fucking kidding me. A key? That would have solved all the problems, why on earth didn't they use the key!!!!!!!


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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741805 - 07/23/03 06:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Sure lets just wait for reinforcements to POSSIBLY show up.

Then the troops can shoot at those in the building and those outside of it at the same time.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741810 - 07/23/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well if they had somewhere to run, wouldn't they have when the gunfight broke out?

If they set up fortification outside, how exactly could it get out of hand? Its not like they had bazokas, or missle launchers....or did they?

If they had no where to go, they probably would just have commited suicide, but they never 'had' to send anyone in....it was stupid.


--------------------
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Lest we forget. "


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Re: Here you go: [Re: monoamine]
    #1741811 - 07/23/03 06:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
I think they should have blasted some Kenny G. They would have come out eventually,or more likely committed suicide.



You sadistic bastard!

At least you didn't suggest something truly horrible like the Osmonds or the Captain and Tenille.

That would just be wrong.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741817 - 07/23/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Sure lets just wait for reinforcements to POSSIBLY show up.





What reinforcments?!...but that could warrent some heli support...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741822 - 07/23/03 06:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

grandmaster you are a sicko!!!!! how on earth can you possibly torture a human being like that. I definately would have bitten the bullet had they done that.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741824 - 07/23/03 06:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

That's what I get for making a statement instead of my opinion.  :smirk: 


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741832 - 07/23/03 06:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Sure lets just wait for reinforcements to POSSIBLY show up.





What reinforcments?!...but that could warrent some heli support...



Gosh slomo, I don't know.

Perhaps the same groups that have been picking off the troops each and every day? There was (supposedly) 50 million in the building. The thought is that the brothers Grimm were using this money to pay the guys killing the aforementioned troops.

One quick radio message and who knows who would have showed up.

Perhaps no-one. Perhaps a few car bombers.

Try and use a little, or even any, imagination.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1741835 - 07/23/03 06:44 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

good. less evil fucks to worry about. not that i really worried about them anyway, but still, it's good news from iraq.

BTW what were these morons thinking staying in iraq? when thousands of people are looking for you and you have a 30 million dollar bounty on your head doesnt it make sense to leave the country or something. dumbfucks.


--------------------
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1741837 - 07/23/03 06:46 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Didn't they do some kind of shit like that with Miloso-bitch,or whatever the fuck his name is?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741840 - 07/23/03 06:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
One quick radio message and who knows who would have showed up.

Perhaps no-one. Perhaps a few car bombers.





Gee, heaven forbid! Then they call the helicopters...if they even need it.

As for all the lame insults and comments, no one cares....sorry.



--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741845 - 07/23/03 06:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Its not like they had bazokas, or missle launchers....or did they?





Who, the GIs or the Husseins? The Hussein boys had RPGs and used them. The US army uses anti-tank rockets, but no real bazookas. All their recoiless rifles are mothballed, though they broke some out for wall-busting in Panama. If they had them I'm sure they'd use them.

Quote:

they probably would just have commited suicide




They did, suicide by grunt. They obviously preferred death to capture. I'm not suprised, considering what the Iraqi citizens would want to do to them.

I think the airborne guys really didn't want to lay seige to the compound for what could be months. That would end up a freaking zoo and a magnet for hostile fire. You'd have to construct a base around the villa.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: monoamine]
    #1741848 - 07/23/03 06:48 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
Didn't they do some kind of shit like that with Miloso-bitch,or whatever the fuck his name is?



I don't know if they did it to him but they did it to Antonio Noriega from Panama.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1741851 - 07/23/03 06:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

One of them fled to Syria, who then kicked him back out.


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Here you go: [Re: monoamine]
    #1741857 - 07/23/03 06:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

They did that to Noriega, who was holed up in a church. We try to avoid shooting up houses of worship, bad p.r. and all.

I know a guy who's unit did blow up a church steeple in Panama, though, cause it had a sniper in it.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741861 - 07/23/03 06:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
One quick radio message and who knows who would have showed up.

Perhaps no-one. Perhaps a few car bombers.





Gee, heaven forbid! Then they call the helicopters...if they even need it.

As for all the lame insults and comments, no one cares....sorry.





So a car bomber drives down the street, and they call the copters in? Must be a llloooonnnnngggggggg ass fuse on that bomb.

And if even 10 or 15 guys with guns had shown up the outcome could have been quite different.

Perhaps you could wait someone out in friendly territory, but I doubt it'd be wise in a war zone.

And if I had insulted you, you'd know it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741864 - 07/23/03 06:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

wingnutx said:
I think the airborne guys really didn't want to lay seige to the compound for what could be months. That would end up a freaking zoo and a magnet for hostile fire. You'd have to construct a base around the villa.




Ah yes, thats what i was looking for. It would be a good target range for hostile iraqis...and i wonder exactly how much food they had in there, it would have taken months.....months too long!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741868 - 07/23/03 06:53 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

know how to tell if a car is a car bomb? It explodes and kills you.

They don't label them very well.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741869 - 07/23/03 06:54 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Couldn't come up with that on your own?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1741872 - 07/23/03 06:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
And if I had insulted you, you'd know it. 




I bet! :noway:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741875 - 07/23/03 06:55 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Ah, common sense!

Well many will miss it but I don't blame you for trying.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1741887 - 07/23/03 06:59 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Good one wingnut. Damn no labelin Iraqis why the hell dont they label bomb laden cars anymore? You would think they would be a little more considerate.


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1741906 - 07/23/03 07:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Here's a more developed account of what may have happened (from Reuters):

Quote:

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Saddam Hussein's teenage grandson Mustapha may have been the last man standing after U.S. troops launched a missile barrage on a house where he had holed up with his father and uncle.

Three adults dead around him, the soldiers said he fired on them as they stormed into the ruins. They shot him down.

Lieutenant-General Ricardo Sanchez described on Wednesday the massive firepower from land and air that killed Saddam's sons Uday and Qusay and two others, as yet unidentified, after Tuesday's siege in the city of Mosul.

Automatic gunfire from a barricaded upper-story room had wounded four soldiers when they first tried to detain the men.

Officials in Washington say one of the dead was Qusay's 14- year-old son. Details remain sketchy and it was not entirely clear the last survivor was the youngster but Sanchez's account indicated as much.

A barrage of 10 anti-tank missiles is likely to have killed the adults in the house, Sanchez told a news conference.

"We believe that it is likely that the TOW missile attack was what wound up killing three of the adults," said Sanchez, land forces commander in Iraq.

But when troops burst up the staircase, they came under fire again. "They killed the remaining individual," Sanchez said.

Around 200 soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division pounded the house with grenades, rocket-firing Kiowa attack helicopters and Humvees mounted with heavy .50 caliber machineguns and the anti-tank missiles on Tuesday.

On standby were A-10 Warthog tankbuster aircraft, Apache attack helicopters and a psy-ops team but they were not used.

The proximity of neighboring houses was a factor in not using heavier weaponry, Sanchez said. "We know of no collateral damage that occurred as a result of the operation," he said.

STARTED WITH A BULLHORN

Sanchez said the raid, initiated after a tip from an Iraqi "walk-in source" who will probably get the two $15 million rewards offered for information on Saddam's sons, started with shouts over a bullhorn to surrender.

"We did not get a response," Sanchez said.

When soldiers entered the house, they came under rifle fire from the men, who had barricaded themselves in a fortified upstairs section of the villa. Four soldiers were hurt early on -- three on the staircase and one outside the house.

U.S. forces then called in more firepower. They tried later to enter the house a second time but again came under fire and withdrew.

"We began to employ Humvee-mounted TOW missiles," Sanchez said. "We fired 10 TOW missiles into the house."

The concrete mansion, home to a businessman who neighbors said may have been the informer, was left a shattered ruin.

When they entered the house a third time, only one person was left alive to shoot at U.S. soldiers, who killed him.




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1741910 - 07/23/03 07:07 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well if your surrounding an area, and an unauthorised vehicle shows up, its kinda suspiscious....

Oh wait, they had that problem at a few checkpoints...i believe they didn't fire on some car bombs and were blown up, and then after that incident, they opened fire, but it ended up being civilians!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1741922 - 07/23/03 07:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

yup.


Edited by wingnutx (07/23/03 07:11 PM)


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OfflineRANKSRAGGY68
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1741947 - 07/23/03 07:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It has to be a "gunfight" for political and PR purposes. Basically you don't want them in a jail somewhere where a terrorist organization can be offered large sums of cash to commit an act of terror in order to demand their release. Then again, whatever happened to Manuel Noriega?

Right now both are being hollowed out and used as condoms by the thorny cocked Deamon Balbadeesh.

-RR68


--------------------
"Praise the Lord and Pass the Ammunition."


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: RANKSRAGGY68]
    #1741953 - 07/23/03 07:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Noriega is in jail, but nobody is going to bother hijacking a plane to get his ass released.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1743261 - 07/24/03 01:21 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Snatch missions can be done, but not against a cornered enemy. Even with suprise it's a very bad bet that you'll take your guy alive.

When was the last time you heard about cops calling in helicopters and grenade launchers in a seige situation? Get real. If a bunch of cops have the knowledge to resolve most seige situations peacefully it's a very good bet the military can do the same.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1743318 - 07/24/03 01:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your own example works against you.

You're missing the point. You arn't seriously suggesting a cripple and a 14 year old in a villa present a more challenging military problem than Entebbe are you?  :confused: 


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1743355 - 07/24/03 01:52 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

It depends on the cripple and the 14 year old. If I was up against a crippled former Navy Seal, I wouldn't like my chances. Same thing with a 14 year old who first learned to shoot a gun when he was 4.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: silversoul7]
    #1743369 - 07/24/03 01:58 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The military were aware it wasn't a navy seal tho - the owner of the house had informed them who was staying there.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1743776 - 07/24/03 06:34 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You arn't seriously suggesting a cripple and a 14 year old in a villa present a more challenging military problem than Entebbe are you?




What would be the point of risking the lives of a hostage rescue team when the end result would be same anyway: the death of all the armed hostile individuals.

Entebbe worked out pretty well, in other cases it didn't go equally well. And even in Entebbe there were non-hostile casualties: commander Yoni Netanyahu who led the rescue force was killed. Dora Bloch, a sick 75-year-old woman, had been taken to a hospital earlier and was left behind. She was later murdered by the ugandians. Three other hostages who had been hit by gunfire died from their wounds after they had returned home.

I can understand why people are willing to risk their lives to save hostages in situations like the Entebbe raid. But Alex, do you really think anyone would want to risk their lives just to get Uday and Qusay out alive rather than dead?


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1743986 - 07/24/03 10:10 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Maybe Alex would be willing to, but then we wouldn't be able to read all his comedic opinions.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1744049 - 07/24/03 10:41 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yawn zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744080 - 07/24/03 10:58 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

When was the last time you heard about cops calling in helicopters and grenade launchers in a seige situation?




Probably the last time the cops had to arrest someone with a buttload of RPGs & machine guns in an armored villa.

You are a funny guy.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1744132 - 07/24/03 11:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So you don't believe it's possible to end a seige situation peacefully?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744172 - 07/24/03 11:36 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Probably not. None of the examples you used ended peacefully, either.

They obviously were determined not to be taken alive.



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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744181 - 07/24/03 11:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
So you don't believe it's possible to end a seige situation peacefully?




In some cases.

I do not think this would have ever ended peacefully.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1744190 - 07/24/03 11:42 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Probably not. None of the examples you used ended peacefully, either.

And you really don't think Entebbe was a more challenging problem than Uday? Managing to kill hardened terrorists in a plane in a hostile country thousands of miles away without them being able to pull the trigger on a single hostage was easier than taking Uday alive?

I just can't see it.

They obviously were determined not to be taken alive.

We'll never know if they were or not.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744201 - 07/24/03 11:45 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

We'll never know if they were or not.




The fact that they kept shooting is a pretty good indicator.

Please quit willfully ignoring the fact that this was not some open-air villa, but a hardened palace designed to thwart invaders. Thank you.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1744205 - 07/24/03 11:48 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The fact that they kept shooting is a pretty good indicator.

No it isn't. There's one helluva difference between firing a few rounds for an hour or two and killing yourself. Offhand I can think of only one dictator who ever killed himself - Hitler. It's very rare for people with that much self-importance to shoot themselves.

Please quit willfully ignoring the fact that this was not some open-air villa

It was a villa with a reinforced bathroom. I still call that a villa. It wasn't Fort Knox.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744224 - 07/24/03 11:57 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

And you really don't think Entebbe was a more challenging problem than Uday? Managing to kill hardened terrorists in a plane in a hostile country thousands of miles away without them being able to pull the trigger on a single hostage was easier than taking Uday alive?




Don't you even research the examples you use in your own arguments, Alex? The Entebbe terrorists and their hostages were not in a plane, they were in the Entebbe Airport terminal building. And three hostages were shot, as well as one person in the rescue team.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1744243 - 07/24/03 12:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

*Yawn*

Does this really make any difference to the point?

Ok, is rescuing 105 hostages from a hostile country with a handful of casualities harder than taking Uday out alive?



--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744284 - 07/24/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ok, is rescuing 105 hostages from a hostile country with a handful of casualities harder than taking Uday out alive?




No, it's probably easier, taking into consideration the higher level of acceptable risk in the Entebbe case. How would you have taken Uday and Qusay out alive with minimum risk to the non-hostile people involved?


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1744314 - 07/24/03 12:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Give it up. You can't debate with someone who disregards even the facts that he himself has asserted.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1744324 - 07/24/03 12:38 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I am replying to two people who believe Entebbe was easier than taking on a cripple and a 14 year old in a villa.

You're right - it's time to give up.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1744398 - 07/24/03 01:06 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yep, you just lost this one Alex. When you site an example, and everythng you say about it wrong, you lose.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1744423 - 07/24/03 01:17 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well lets put it to a vote!


Did alex win the argument?
His logic and resoning was flawless!...YES.
He repeats the same shit without listening to anything...NO!




Votes accepted from (12/31/69 07:00 PM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll



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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineBhairabas
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Registered: 07/21/03
Posts: 889
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1744702 - 07/24/03 03:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

regarding the states selling them weapons.. They didn't directly but they sold the chemicals to france who sold them to Iraq.. The United States also sat back and watched them use them for a good ten years before they decided that genocide was a bad thing..


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Bhairabas]
    #1744721 - 07/24/03 03:21 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

The United States also sat back and watched them use them for a good ten years before they decided that genocide was a bad thing..

Ssshhh..you're not supposed to say that.

If you say that it means you must *hate america*  :rolleyes:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Bhairabas]
    #1744735 - 07/24/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Here are a few more articles, the first one (from the Washington Post) says that the troops didn't even know who they were fighting inside the house.

The second (from the NY Times) has the US defending their decision to storm the house rather than lay seige (The article is 3 pages long so I won't post it here though).

Quote:

Troops Didn't Know Brothers Were in Villa

By NIKO PRICE and JAMIE TARABAY
The Associated Press
Wednesday, July 23, 2003; 10:10 PM

MOSUL, Iraq - It was 10 a.m. when the four Humvees pulled up outside the handsome villa on Shalalat Street and disgorged a party of U.S. soldiers. Over a bullhorn, they told the occupants to come out with their hands up.

What followed was a firefight from the ground and air that reduced the comfortable villa to a smoking hulk. And only then did the troops find out how high the stakes had been: Their targets, they discovered, were Saddam Hussein's sons Odai and Qusai, second in power only to their father.

The raid was a "turning point" in the campaign against Iraq's deposed regime, the commander of coalition forces in Iraq, Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, said Wednesday in Baghdad. President Bush said it would help convince Iraqis that Saddam's regime is over for good.

But soldiers who participated in the raid said they didn't know what they were getting into when they headed out to the wealthy al-Falah neighborhood in the northern city of Mosul on Tuesday morning.

The night before, an unidentified Iraqi had tipped off the Americans that Odai and Qusai were in the house, Sanchez said afterward. But all Sgt. George Granter knew on that blistering hot Tuesday morning was that intelligence was reporting the house was occupied by Baath Party members.

"They heard high guys, but they didn't know how high," said Granter, of Merrillville, Ind., an engineer with the 326 Battalion of the 101st Airborne Division who took part in the battle.

The action that played out on the wide boulevard lined with villas, shops and a mosque began like countless others across occupied Iraq: with orders in Arabic to surrender.

"The intent is always to ask the people to come out voluntarily," said Col. Joe Anderson, commander of the 101st's 2nd Brigade.

The owner of the house, Sheik Nawaf al-Zaydan Muhhamad, walked out with his son Shalan, their hands on their heads, and were whisked away by troops, neighbors said Wednesday.

The other occupants were less cooperative. So after 10 minutes troops tried to enter the building. From the fortified middle floor of the three-floor building came Kalashnikov fire, raking the troops and wounding four of them. The Americans fell back to regroup and reinforcements were summoned.

Soldiers fanned out in the neighborhood and evacuated families from surrounding houses, said Maj. Greg Ebeling of the 101st's 926 Engineer Group.

By 10:45, reinforcements had arrived, and the Americans began firing machine guns, grenades and rockets, Sanchez said. The area was surrounded so "there was no rush," the general said.

Witnesses said beige and maroon tiles popped from the garish facade, and dust flew from the concrete columns. Still, gunfire rattled back from the mansion.

Just before noon, two Kiowa helicopters skimmed in over the rooftops, and rockets streaked into the villa. More and more troops poured into the neighborhood, witnesses said, until about 200 were surrounding the house.

It was their fire from the ground that proved decisive: .50-caliber machine guns, grenade launchers, then TOW missiles that blew out windows, cratered walls and killed Saddam's sons and a bodyguard, Sanchez said.

At 1:21 p.m. soldiers stormed the wrecked mansion. They rushed up the stairs and shot the final holdout, apparently Qusai's teenage son Mustafa.

On the floor where Saddam's sons had chosen to make their last stand lay clothes, bloodstained bedding, a Pepsi can and a box of Mars Bars.

"It began as gunfire and then it became a battle," said Nasser Hazim, who lives around the corner from the villa.

The person who tipped the Americans off to the hide-out is in protective custody, his identity a secret, U.S. authorities said.

Neighbors, however, suspect the tipster was Muhhamad, the house owner, who obeyed the surrender call. They said his wife and four daughters left the house several hours before the raid.

"There is a big question mark there. Did they know something would happen, or was it a coincidence?" said Nasser Hazim's brother, Ahmed. Anderson fueled the rumor when he was asked why the tipster was in protective custody.

"People know who owns the house, so that's a factor," he said.

He refused, however, to say whether Muhhamad, whom Iraqis said was a cousin of Saddam, was the tipster. If he was, he will apparently be entitled to a reward from the U.S. government of $15 million for each of Saddam's sons.

Ahmad Chalabi, a delegate from Iraq's Governing Council and longtime opponent of Saddam, said for former Iraqi dictator's tribe had always denied that Muhhamad was a cousin.

Muhhamad's ties to Saddam cut two ways - making him rich, but causing him personal grief. Saddam threw Muhhamad's elder brother in jail, reportedly over a tribal disagreement, but released him 18 months into a 17-year sentence.

As the bodies of Odai, 39, and Qusai, 37, were taken to Baghdad International Airport to be flown out of the country, several hundred people gathered outside the razor wire surrounding their still-smoking hide-out Wednesday, chanting pro-Saddam slogans.

"This is terrorism! They are killers!" screamed Saad Badr, a 50-year-old taxi driver who was pressed so close to the razor wire that his left toe was bleeding.

"Americans are unbelievers, and Saddam Hussein is a Muslim. This makes me even more angry at the Americans," said 14-year-old Mohammed Qassem, to a chorus of agreement from the crowd.

The protesters dispersed without incident after the Americans trucked in several dozen Iraqis in civilian clothes and armed with wooden clubs. They seemed friendly and their presence was enough to disperse the crowd as the call to prayers went up from the nearby mosque.

As psychological operations specialists combed the gutted house, Army engineers examined neighboring houses that suffered damage in the raid, and promised over loudspeakers to repair them.

Several troops guarding the area appeared relaxed, taking snapshots of the villa from the gunners' positions of Humvees.

"This makes me feel great," Granter said as he gazed at the destruction. But already, he was looking ahead to the biggest prize of all.

"Saddam, he's the big one," he said. "If we can get him, we can go home."




--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Edame]
    #1744775 - 07/24/03 03:37 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

"Americans are unbelievers, and Saddam Hussein is a Muslim. This makes me even more angry at the Americans," said 14-year-old Mohammed Qassem, to a chorus of agreement from the crowd.




Yeah, it must be very painful for some "believers" to wake up and face the real world where non-Muslims are not always inferior.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Edame]
    #1744788 - 07/24/03 03:40 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

"Saddam, he's the big one," he said. "If we can get him, we can go home."

I think this kid has got one helluva wake-up call coming. He's going to be there years after Saddam is killed...after having had every opportunity to give himself up of course..


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744797 - 07/24/03 03:42 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Actually they will be coming home, since we will be rotating most of our forces as long as we are there, just like we did after the last war.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1744813 - 07/24/03 03:47 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

No shit, you mean you don't just leave them in Iraq for 10 years?  :smirk:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1744849 - 07/24/03 04:01 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your the one that just said that kid would be there for years after Saddam was gone. WTF?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1744860 - 07/24/03 04:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Your the one that just said that kid would be there for years after Saddam was gone.

Not in a row man. Soldiers do go home for chris'sakes.

How old are you shak?

The point isn't about how long this one guy will stay in Iraq, it's about what he's saying that if Saddam is killed the americans will go home.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineDrubuShrume
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1744920 - 07/24/03 04:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

place was reportedly surrounded by 200 soldiers. So 200 soldiers, a bunch of helicopters and 10 TOW missiles to take out 4 people (not all of them may have been armed either).

I don't know what makes you think that we knew how many people were in the compound. We had to have known that they would go out fighting until death. You can only risk so many soldiers for a mission, and the importance of the Hussein's lives do not prioritize that of a US soldier.

You seem to believe that theres only going to be 4 people in a heavily-protected compound. Concrete fuckin walls... I know I don't have concrete walls! Obviously they would have more than just themselves for protection.


Sorry if this has already been stated, but I got 5 pages into the thread and it got quite repetitive.


--------------------
AH HA....


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InvisibleEdame
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Re: Here you go: [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1745011 - 07/24/03 04:52 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Yes it's quite obvious that you didn't read much of this thread before you posted. Whilst replying to luv, you've taken what I said completely out of context. If you'd bothered to read all of my posts in this thread then you'd know that I was speculating, I didn't claim to know any of the 'facts' in this story.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1745039 - 07/24/03 05:04 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Your the one that just said that kid would be there for years after Saddam was gone.

Not in a row man. Soldiers do go home for chris'sakes.

How old are you shak?

The point isn't about how long this one guy will stay in Iraq, it's about what he's saying that if Saddam is killed the americans will go home.




Yeah, no shit. I was just pointing out you contradicting yourself in concurrent threads. I am 27 BTW, and if you are going to try to lay a 'I am a wise old man' line of BS on me don't waste your breathe.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1745041 - 07/24/03 05:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Age only seems to be a factor to older people anyway... :smirk:  Its hard to believe someone younger might know something you don't!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1745143 - 07/24/03 05:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

does anyone else think that this is just a little too well timed?
with bush's popularity sinking like a rock?
i wouldnt doubt that his wasnt actually them
the timing is just too good for bushy,
PROPAGANDA? i think so
war is destruction of our race.


--------------------
PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1745183 - 07/24/03 05:49 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Well it does seem almost unbelievable stupid, that saddams sons would hang around in the country...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1745219 - 07/24/03 06:03 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

One went to Syria, but was expelled


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1745239 - 07/24/03 06:14 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I heard, but i bet he didn't even try to sneak in...he prolly expected sanctuary or some shit...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1745266 - 07/24/03 06:27 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

exactly


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1745291 - 07/24/03 06:41 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

zippoz said:
does anyone else think that this is just a little too well timed?
with bush's popularity sinking like a rock?
i wouldnt doubt that his wasnt actually them
the timing is just too good for bushy,
PROPAGANDA? i think so
war is destruction of our race.





Um, OK. You and Alex should trade your foil hat fashion secrets.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1745351 - 07/24/03 07:11 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

If I were they, I would have been in Oklahoma by now, and would have learned to say in a drawl "Eww-daay? Hew thu fuck is Eww-daay?"


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
(•_•)
<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


LET'S GO, DARWIN!


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1745356 - 07/24/03 07:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:


does anyone else think that this is just a little too well timed?





What, did they keep them in suspended animation until Bush needed a boost in the polls?


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1746236 - 07/25/03 12:06 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

now that was fuckin funny!


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: DrubuShrume]
    #1746448 - 07/25/03 01:29 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I don't know what makes you think that we knew how many people were in the compound.

Cos the owner of the villa who was sheltering them was the guy we gave 30 million to for betraying them.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1746837 - 07/25/03 03:24 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Good Lord Alex get a grip on reality there satchmo. Do you really think that there was any way in hell they were going to be taken alive? Your not as smart as I thought you were if you said yes. They knew what was coming and they knew what they had to do, its plain and simple.


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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1746852 - 07/25/03 03:28 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

well its a good thing they dont have contraptions that let you talk to other people if you need help. Alex the more you talk on this subject the more ammo your giving the people that think the Pussain brothers deserved to die. Funny thing is, is that its your post.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1747066 - 07/25/03 05:39 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I think they deserved to die, but I personally would have preferred they be tried and executed by the people they tourmented for all those years.


--------------------
(•_•)
<) )~  ANTIFA
/ \
\(•_•)
( (>    SUPER
/ \
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<) )>    SOLDIERS
  / \


LET'S GO, DARWIN!


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1747316 - 07/25/03 09:23 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Some of the locals expressed similar feeling. One guy was saying, "I didn't want them killed, I wanted them tortured first!"

That was a guy who had worked for one of them at his TV station.

Makes me appreciate my boss.


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1747380 - 07/25/03 09:50 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

have you seen the news today? it looks like they were tortured. The coroner is reporting multiple bruises, abrasions, and burns all over their bodies and apparently one of them died from a blow to the head rather than a gunshot wound. On top of that they were each shot about 20 times. I also find it kind of odd that neither of them were wearing shirts in the pictures that were taken of them right after they were killed. Could they have been tortured and executed?





--------------------
Religion is for people who are afraid of going to Hell; spirituality is for those who have been there.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1747391 - 07/25/03 09:52 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
have you seen the news today? it looks like they were tortured. The coroner is reporting multiple bruises, abrasions, and burns all over their bodies and apparently one of them died from a blow to the head rather than a gunshot wound. On top of that they were each shot about 20 times. I also find it kind of odd that neither of them were wearing shirts in the pictures that were taken of them right after they were killed. Could they have been tortured and executed?




We could only hope they were tortured. You think it is possible that something fell on them when the room they were in got hit with 10 TOW missiles? As far as being shot twenty times goes, 200 guys with machine guns could cause that I would think.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1747414 - 07/25/03 10:07 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

You think it is possible that something fell on them when the room they were in got hit with 10 TOW missiles? As far as being shot twenty times goes, 200 guys with machine guns could cause that I would think.



Now, your letting common sense bleed through here.

Stop it immediately!


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1747617 - 07/25/03 11:47 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

We could only hope they were tortured

What's up with you and torture man? Do you still want to get down between their legs and tweezer every hair off their testicles before killing them?

Do you hate every dictator the same as you do these two? Or are these just the two Bush has told you are "bad men"?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1747621 - 07/25/03 11:51 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Do you really think that there was any way in hell they were going to be taken alive?

So you know them well enough to know they'd commit suicide? On what evidence are you basing this?

Could you list me every dictator you know of who killed himself rather than get caught? Offhand, I can think of one. See how many you can come up with and you'll realise that dictators offing themselves is pretty damn rare.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Odai the Sailor Man!!!!!!!!!!!!! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1747631 - 07/25/03 11:54 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)



Edited by wingnutx (07/25/03 11:58 AM)


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1747632 - 07/25/03 11:57 AM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

The coroner is reporting multiple bruises, abrasions, and burns all over their bodies and apparently one of them died from a blow to the head rather than a gunshot wound. On top of that they were each shot about 20 times.




OK, you stand in a room & I will hose it with machinegun fire and anti-tank missiles.

My theory is that you will have lots of holes, burns, and abrasions. You may even have a bruise on your head.



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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1747642 - 07/25/03 12:05 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

So they didn't commit suicide after all.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1747654 - 07/25/03 12:13 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Don't put words in my mouth, cupcake.

I do not know what actually killed either of them, and neither do you. I do know that they were in a building under intense fire.

It is entirely possible for them to sustain injury from hostile fire, then commit suicide.

It is also possible for bullets to penetrate a body thatis already dead. Weird but true.

Neither of us is a forensics expert with access to the bodies, so claiming one particular thing is just plain dumb.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: wingnutx]
    #1747659 - 07/25/03 12:15 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Do you think it likely he committed suicide by giving himself a blow on the head?



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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1747665 - 07/25/03 12:19 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

No, of course not. There is no official coroner's report that states he died of such, as far as I know. If you know of one then please post it. Anything else is conjecture.


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Here you go: [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #1747674 - 07/25/03 12:23 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

there's this thing called 'shrapnel'


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1747709 - 07/25/03 12:39 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

On Friday, military morticians told reporters seeing the corpses that the faces of both bodies had been partially reconstructed and prepared for viewing.

Military pathologists said each body had more than 20 bullet wounds. After viewing the photos Thursday, some military officials had speculated that wounds on Uday's body could have been self-inflicted. But military pathologists said they had seen no signs of suicide.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/25/sprj.irq.main/index.html


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1747737 - 07/25/03 12:51 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

See how many you can come up with and you'll realise that dictators offing themselves is pretty damn rare.



I wasn't aware they were dictators. Did I miss the death of their father?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1747829 - 07/25/03 01:20 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

This is funny!...alex just goes on and on...

Read the poll on page 10...mabye its time you gave this up? ....other thread too...


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1747862 - 07/25/03 01:29 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

They are already saying that he most likely did not commit suicide purposefully. The whole point that you can't seem to comprehend is that, if you are in a building surrounded by the most powerful military on the planet, shooting at them is not a good idea. He committed suicide by not coming out when he had the chance to. He committed suicide by shooting at our troops when they were coming up the stairs to get him. Pretty simple isn't it.

Furthermore, why should we have risked more soldiers lives for these guys and the supposed intelligence we could have gotten from them? Anything they would have told us was not worth the risk. They were in the middle of the most hostile part of the country, where we have been losing guys almost on a daily basis. Trying to preserve the life of these two would not rank very high on a commander's list of things to do, when he is worried about people walking up and shooting RPGs at his troops. As levdem said, every nutjob in the area would have shown up to try to save them, which would have resulted in more caualties on our (maybe not yours, but definately mine) side.


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Offlineshakta
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1747866 - 07/25/03 01:30 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
This is funny!...alex just goes on and on...

Read the poll on page 10...mabye its time you gave this up? ....other thread too...




Damn, he didn't even vote for himself.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1747875 - 07/25/03 01:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

I believe they would have shot themselves anyway if at all possible. They didn't WANT to be taken alive, and when your armed, theres not much anyone can do about it.


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Lest we forget. "


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1747880 - 07/25/03 01:33 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
Damn, he didn't even vote for himself. 




:lol:


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1748311 - 07/25/03 03:24 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Damn, he didn't even vote for himself.

I'm not ten years old son.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Here you go: [Re: shakta]
    #1748326 - 07/25/03 03:28 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

Furthermore, why should we have risked more soldiers lives for these guys and the supposed intelligence we could have gotten from them?

Because you've just spent countless billions on a war based around WMD that you can't find. You have killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people and american troops are dying every day. These are the two best intelligence sources you could hope to find.

Incidentally, the "risk" is in sending men into the building - there's absolutely no risk in laying seige.

As levdem said, every nutjob in the area would have shown up to try to save them,

Are you serious?  :confused: Like all these iraqis with small arms start walking towards the tanks, helicopters and jet aircraft?


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Here you go: [Re: Xlea321]
    #1748778 - 07/25/03 05:57 PM (18 years, 9 months ago)

As levdem said, every nutjob in the area would have shown up to try to save them,

Quote:

Alex123 said:
Are you serious?  :confused: Like all these iraqis with small arms start walking towards the tanks, helicopters and jet aircraft? 




Tell me your not truely confused about this....for gods sake! :rolleyes:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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