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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738794 - 07/22/03 04:12 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

a. yeah they would want to keep them as intact as possible
b. they'd want to do it in the safest manner possible, taking their time.

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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738797 - 07/22/03 04:13 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Maybe I didnt read your response right I thought you were stating that they shouldnt have killed those guys. I personally would have liked to see them go to a military tribunal but they knew they were gonna be hung anyway why not go out fighting. My bad if that wasnt your intention.

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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738799 - 07/22/03 04:14 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Meat_Log_Smurf said:
I have a spot when I shoot paintballs that I can take out at least 4 or 5 people before I get hit. More than likely they didnt want to use grenades due to the fact they wanted a quick ID of who they killed.




Paintball is great, but they're not reporting any US deaths from this gun-battle... apparently they just held the guys off... and what you say about grenades sounds likely.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738803 - 07/22/03 04:15 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

You don't think 4 people in a fortified position can put up a decent fight?

Including one in a wheelchair and one 14 year old? We know 3 of them were civilians. How effective a "gunbattle" are they going to put up?

To put it into some perspective, a small group of British SAS went into a building occupied by 5 trained terrorists armed to the teeth surrounded by hostages. All the terrorists were killed and no hostages were harmed and it was all over within about 2 minutes. No need to call in the helicopters whatsoever.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1738806 - 07/22/03 04:15 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Four coalition troops were wounded in the six-hour operation at a residence on the northern edge of Mosul, Sanchez said. (from cnn)

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738813 - 07/22/03 04:17 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

sorry, I forgot that 14 year olds arent allowed to fire guns in Iraq.

You are comparing apples and oranges.

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Meat_Log_Smurf]
    #1738817 - 07/22/03 04:18 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Hidden in a pile of dead leaves, not 20 yards from the building housing the Iraqi Football Association, was that must-have appliance of every medieval dungeon: an iron maiden.

Looks like Uday was behind the times. Here's the latest news on the torture scene:

Documents released on 28 January by the CIA confirm that the agency taught mental torture and coercion techniques to at least five Latin American security forces in the early 1980s. The documents also allege to have "repudiated" such training in 1985. A 1983 CIA manual teaches foreign agents the art of extracting information from people without yanking out their fingernails, burning the soles of their feet with the business end of a lit cigarette or hanging them from meat hooks. Claiming that physical torture is counterproductive, it advises against such methods. It suggests, instead the use of fear, exhaustion, solitary confinement and other forms of psychological duress designed to induce intense anxiety and to "destroy [the subject's] capacity to endure" interrogation.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738825 - 07/22/03 04:21 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

sorry, I forgot that 14 year olds arent allowed to fire guns in Iraq.

So are you saying that you can't do anything with 4 people in a Villa - including highly important members of the Saddam government who would have one helluva good idea where these mysterious "weapons of mass destruction" are - other than blast the fuck out of them with helicopters? That's the apex of american military planning?

Before calling in the helicopters how about y'know starting with tear gas?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738832 - 07/22/03 04:23 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I think that's a good point.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738837 - 07/22/03 04:24 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

I'm under the impression that most of the battle was small arms fire, but helicopters were employed to bust up some of the barricade. Sounds like a good enough plan to me. What would you have done?

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738845 - 07/22/03 04:27 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Before calling in the helicopters how about y'know starting with tear gas?




Silly as it may sound, we are not allowed to use tear gas in any military action.

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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738851 - 07/22/03 04:29 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Could be because they already found over 16,000 gas masks that they might have figured Saddams sons might have just a couple with them. Maybe they did fire gas? Maybe they didnt, who cares? If I want to soften up a house or building fuck ya I will call in an Apache. After the dust settles you get a little better view of what your target is. Like Saddams sons are gonna let us take them into custody anyway. If they had a bullet left in their guns they wouldnt. They knew what was coming after the first shot was fired.

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738854 - 07/22/03 04:29 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Why the fuck not?!


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738868 - 07/22/03 04:34 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

It's against the Geneva Conventions, which considers it a chemical weapon. Same reason we cant use hollowpoints.

We can use it on our own guys as a training aid, though. I've been tear gassed many times. It sucks but it's bearable.

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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 19 years, 2 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738951 - 07/22/03 05:01 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

But why can't you use it? Napalm is also not usable under the same convention right?...but you said tear gas is bearable, so why not use it?


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738962 - 07/22/03 05:07 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Napalm isn't in there, to my knowledge, so flame-throwers are OK. We don't use them anymore, anyway.

After WWI they made chemical weapons verboten, period. Silly to put CS gas in there, imho.


Quote:

A legal expert at the International Committee of the Red Cross in Geneva said the use of napalm or fuel air bombs was not illegal "per se" because the US was not a signatory to the 1980 weapons convention which prohibits and restricts certain weapons. "But the US has to apply the basic principles of International Humanitarian Law (IHL) and take all precautions to protect civilians. In the case of napalm and fuel air bombs, these are special precautions because these are area weapons, not specific weapons," said Dominique Loye, the committee's adviser on weapons and IHL.




http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/21/1047749944836.html

Edited by wingnutx (07/22/03 05:11 PM)

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738977 - 07/22/03 05:15 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Looks like Napalm was included in some conventions, that the US has not ratified, in 1980.

The chemical weapons ban is in the original that we've been signatories to since the end of WWI.

I don't think we use any napalm anymore, but we certainly do use white phosphorus and thermite. That's mainly for destroying equipment, though.

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Anonymous

Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1739119 - 07/22/03 06:04 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

here's the story. sounds credible to me. either way, i don't care how those guys died... they probably got a quicker and fairer death than they deserved.

_______________________________________________________

Saddam's Two Sons Killed in U.S. Raid

Saddam Hussein's sons Odai and Qusai were killed in a six-hour firefight Tuesday when U.S. forces, acting on a tip from an Iraqi informant, surrounded and then stormed a palatial villa in this northern Iraqi town, a senior American general said.

Four coalition soldiers were wounded and two other Iraqis were killed in the raid, but Saddam was not among them. The house belonged to one of Saddam's cousins, a key tribal leader in the region.

"We are certain that Odai and Qusai were killed today," said Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez at a news conference in Baghdad. "The bodies were in such a condition where you could identify them."

The deaths of the sons could have a major impact on the Iraqi resistance, which has been mounting about a dozen attacks a day against U.S. occupation troops. The guerrillas are thought to be former military officers and Baath Party leaders loyal to Saddam and his family _ especially the sons, who played primary roles in the military and feared security services.

Both Odai and Qusai ranked second only to their father in the deposed regime, officials have said. They were Nos. 2 and 3 on the U.S. list of 55 top former Iraqi officials wanted by Washington. The United States had offered a $25 million reward for information leading to Saddam's capture and $15 million each for his sons.

In Washington, L. Paul Bremer, Iraq's top civilian administrator, said he did not want to comment on how the deaths of Saddam's sons would affect security in Iraq.

However, Bremer said: "It certainly is good news for the Iraqi people."

"This will contribute significantly to reducing attacks on coalition soldiers," said Ahmad Chalabi, a delegate from the Coalition Provisional Authority, speaking at the United Nations.

Asked whether the killing of the sons would reduce the incessant attacks on American forces, Sanchez said he thought the security situation now would improve.

"I believe very firmly this will have an effect. This will prove to the Iraqi people that these two members of the Iraqi regime will never come to power again," Sanchez said.

Hours after the raid in Mosul, gunfire erupted throughout Baghdad, making travel very dangerous. The shooting was believed to be celebratory as news of the killing of the sons spread through the capital.

"It's probably very appropriate that they would be celebrating about now," Sanchez said.

Fighting broke out after soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division surrounded the stone, columned villa.

When troops approached the building, gunmen inside opened fire with small arms. The "suspects barricaded themselves in the house" and "resisted fiercely," Sanchez said.

"They died in a fierce gunbattle," Sanchez added.

He told reporters that soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division were working on a tip from an Iraqi informant that the sons were present in the house.

Asked if the $15 million rewards would be paid, Sanchez said: "I would expect that it probably will happen."

According to witnesses in Mosul, a small force of American soldiers went to the house about 9 a.m. and asked permission to search it. The occupants refused, and the patrol withdrew until about 10 a.m., when 100 more soldiers arrived in 25 vehicles.

The Americans opened fire but received fierce return fire from inside the home, the witnesses said. Kiowa helicopters arrived and fired rockets into the villa. The interior of the house was destroyed and two adjacent homes were badly damaged.

Once the fighting died down, Iraqi police arrived to help the Americans search the building.

"When we saw the people in the house shooting back, we knew Odai and Qusai were there," said the 31-year-old Jamal.

Afterward, about 1,000 people gathered, some expressing delight, others cursing the Americans.

The soldiers removed four bodies and did not let photographers near enough to take pictures.

The building, in the al-Falah neighborhood, was left charred and smoldering, its high facade riddled with gaping holes from bullets and heavy weaponry. Kiowa helicopters roamed the sky.

Some Mosul civilians appeared to have been caught in the crossfire. It was not known how many people were injured, but several were taken to a hospital.

Officials gave conflicting reports on whether anyone was captured during the assault. The officials said they had no initial information that would suggest Saddam was present during the raid.

Experts conducted DNA tests after the bodies were flown from Mosul to another location, officials said.

Throughout the day, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld briefed President Bush personally about the assault.

Qusai was probably intended as Saddam's successor, according to U.S. intelligence officials. He ran much of Iraq's security apparatus, controlling several militias, internal security services and the military forces of the once-vaunted Republican Guard.

He was described as quiet and level, particularly compared to Odai, Saddam's eldest son, who had a reputation for brutality and flamboyance. Odai controlled Saddam's Fedayeen, the paramilitary force that fought U.S. troops during the war; many of its survivors are thought to be part of the ongoing guerrilla campaign in Iraq.

Odai also controlled information and propaganda in Saddam's Iraq, and was chairman of the country's Olympic committee.

Saddam has a third, younger son, according to some reports, and three daughters. All kept a low profile in his regime.

Mosul, a town 240 miles northwest of Baghdad that housed Iraqi army bases, is outside the so-called "Sunni Triangle" in central Iraq _ home to much of the remaining support for Saddam, a Sunni Muslim who used his Baathist Party to oppress the country's Shiite majority.

The triangle is also a center of anti-American resistance: In the latest attack, Tuesday, a U.S. soldier was killed and another wounded in an ambush along a dangerous road north of Baghdad. His death brought to 153 the number of U.S. troops killed in action since the March 20 start of war, six more than during the 1991 Gulf War.

The U.S. Central Command said the attackers used rocket-propelled grenades and small arms in the assault staged along the road between Balad, 50 miles north of Baghdad, and Ramadi, 60 miles west of the capital. It gave no other details.

The U.S.-led coalition's military occupation of Iraq has been met by constant armed Iraqi resistance, resulting in almost daily deaths of American troops. Many recent assaults have been staged with remote-controlled roadside explosions.

Before the announcement, White House officials were cautious in their assessments of whether the raid was successful.

Asked about reports of that Saddam's sons had been killed, White House spokesman Scott McClellan said he was "not in a position to confirm anything."

Given a series of failed strikes against Iraqi leaders since the war began March 20, U.S. officials clearly did not want to make any public claims that later prove untrue.

On April 7, Rumsfeld announced the death of Ali Hassan al-Majid, Saddam's first cousin and one of his bloodiest henchman, and showed reporters video of laser-guided bombs obliterating a house in Basra, Iraq's second city, where a tipster had told coalition forces he was staying.

But last month, U.S. military officials said that interrogations of Iraqi prisoners indicated al-Majid, known as "Chemical Ali" for his use of mustard gas and other poisonous gases to kill thousands of northern Kurds during a 1988 rebellion, might be alive.

Twice during the war, information on Saddam's whereabouts was deemed solid enough that an airstrike was sent to kill him. But despite optimistic statements in the hours after each raid, U.S. officials now believe he is alive.

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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 19 years, 9 months
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1739359 - 07/22/03 07:14 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I guess this means it's unlikely Saddam will be taken alive. With what he's got on Rumsfield, Reagan and Bush Snr why would they take the chance of him ever testifying.




Adjust the foil hat a bit Alex. Thanks for the laugh.

BTW, I am glad these guys are dead. I am also glad his son is dead. Judging from the rest of his family he was on his way to being a real nice guy. To bad they couldn't have kept them alive, and turned them over to a mob of Iraqis. Should have burned them out, and pulled every hair on their bodies out one at a time.

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InvisibleMeat_Log_Smurf
FumbDuck

Registered: 01/31/03
Posts: 1,144
Loc: BFE
Re: Saddams sons killed in "gun-battle"? [Re: shakta]
    #1739440 - 07/22/03 07:41 PM (20 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
I guess this means it's unlikely Saddam will be taken alive. With what he's got on Rumsfield, Reagan and Bush Snr why would they take the chance of him ever testifying.





I too have the pictures of the Grassy Knoll. Alex together we will show the world Rumsfield was the shooter and Bush Sr. was the getaway driver.

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