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TheNuanderthal
Amateur Enthusiast



Registered: 03/16/12
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Bacteria and Mycelium
#17371164 - 12/10/12 10:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am curious as to the relationship between bacteria and mushrooms in nature. My curiosity is spurred by noticing a sweet smell in my jars of mycelium and a biblical verse that I believe refers to the psilocybin mushroom (as I'm sure many of you are familiar with):
Exodus 16:31 - "And the house of Israel called the name thereof Manna: and it was like Coriander seed, white: and the taste of it was like wafers made with honey."
If the Manna of the bible is referring to psilocybian mushrooms (keep in mind that the prophet of Islam tells us that manna are truffles whose juice is a medicine for the eyes) then it should be interesting to note that this description also says that the mushrooms had a sweet taste (and not the bland mushroomy taste as is found in store bought mushrooms). Could the sweet taste of these mushrooms be a result of bacterial interactions in the natural environment?
To rephrase my question: if mushrooms taste sweeter when grown in a natural environment due to bacterial interactions that effect the fragrance and taste of the mushrooms, then could a sweet smell in a controlled growing environment be a similar phenomena? I have searched this forum and found that some people identify a sweet smell when opening their jars, while others smell a plain mushroomy smell. I would also like to know if there are individuals with experience in both cultivated and naturally occurring mushrooms, and notice a difference in the "sweetness" of the taste and fragrance of the respective mushrooms.
It is my understanding that bacteria thrives in nature, and especially in warmer climates. could it be that a sweet smell in cultivated jars is a kind of replication of what happens in warmer climates where mushrooms grow naturally? I am also curious to see if there are individuals who do cultivate sweet smelling mushrooms within a controlled environment and have successful results.
Thoughts and opinions from across the board welcome and the administrators should feel free to relocate this thread if this is not the appropriate forum.
PS: Please keep religious conflicts out of this discussion, the religious references are made for purely historical reasons that relate specifically to the question being asked (Thanks!).
-------------------- Proverbs 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. "Those who understand history are doomed to watch other idiots repeat it" Hakim Bey
Edited by TheNuanderthal (12/11/12 05:44 PM)
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
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Bacteria and fungi do not get along, for the most part. Any competing organisms will battle it out for territory in a substrate. There are some beneficial bacteria however, which are kept alive during the pasteurization process. But they will not cause a sweet smell. If there are bacteria in your mushrooms, you have a high chance of getting sick. If they smell, they are heavily contaminated. The mushrooms do not have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria which would cause sweet smells.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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TheNuanderthal
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To be clear I'm not stating that there is a symbiotic relationship happening between the bacteria and the mushrooms/mycelium, just that they do interact in the natural world. I understand that they compete for substrate but I'm curious about this subject for two reasons, one for cultivation: if there is a slightly sweet smell in a jar then can that jar still be utilized (it seems that some people on this forum think that mycelium smells sweet)? and second for religious history, if wild mushrooms taste sweeter than mushrooms cultivated within a controlled environment (potentially due to bacterial interactions), then the identification of biblical "Manna" would more accurately fit the description of a mushroom, and potentially verify an entheogenic root at the heart of the Abrahamic Faiths.
-------------------- Proverbs 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. "Those who understand history are doomed to watch other idiots repeat it" Hakim Bey
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Quote:
if there is a slightly sweet smell in a jar then can that jar still be utilized
No, it's contaminated with bacteria and will fail.
In nature, there is a balance, so the mycelium and the bacteria each carve out a niche. In sterile culture there is no balance, so if the bacteria or the mushroom mycelium capture a substrate first, it belongs to them.
Don't confuse a fairy tale where a given deity provided all the food his/her people needed, with mushrooms which are one of the most ancient foods. Religion is full of examples where the gods took care of 'their' people. The Abrahamic religions are violent, degrading, insulting to our intelligence, and murderous. To associate the ancient homicidal god of those desert nomadic goat herders with psilocybin mushrooms blasphemes the sacred fungi.
James Arthur and I had many long drawn-out arguments over this before he died, and openly debated this subject at Telluride. He was wrong then and still is. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:The Abrahamic religions are violent, degrading, insulting to our intelligence, and murderous. To associate the ancient homicidal god of those desert nomadic goat herders with psilocybin mushrooms blasphemes the sacred fungi. RR
I shed a tear of happiness reading this. Seldom are words so meaningful and true.
Case closed.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Edited by Tmethyl (12/11/12 09:41 AM)
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cloudpersona
I don't even...

Registered: 12/17/11
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Re: Bacteria and Mycellium [Re: Tmethyl]
#17373285 - 12/11/12 10:05 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:The Abrahamic religions are violent, degrading, insulting to our intelligence, and murderous. To associate the ancient homicidal god of those desert nomadic goat herders with psilocybin mushrooms blasphemes the sacred fungi. RR
I shed a tear of happiness reading this. Seldom are words so meaningful and true.
Case closed.

QFT. Truer words have never been spoken.
-------------------- “The shaman is not merely a sick man, or a madman; he is a sick man who has healed himself.” – Terence McKenna “If the words ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’ don’t include the right to experiment with your own consciousness, then the Declaration of Independence isn’t worth the hemp it was written on.” -Terence McKenna
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TheNuanderthal
Amateur Enthusiast



Registered: 03/16/12
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Quote:
TheNuanderthal said:
PS: Please keep religious conflicts out of this discussion, the religious references are made for purely historical reasons that relate specifically to the question being asked (Thanks!).
Still interested in more tolerant responses particularly concerning sweetness of mushrooms wild and cultivated within a controlled environment. Also people who identify a sweet smell in their grows would be interesting to hear from as well. Thanks!
-------------------- Proverbs 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly. "Those who understand history are doomed to watch other idiots repeat it" Hakim Bey
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Amanita86
OTD Keymaster


Registered: 09/26/12
Posts: 89,464
Loc: hades
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Hahaha git'm RR!!
Just for the sake of conversation, somewhere along my travels different sources etc. have brought up the question of why cows are worshiped, not allowed to be killed or eaten and all that. The in's and out's of which I'll be the first to tell you I don't really know. But a pretty interesting point that was brought up is,.. Cows are considered "religious" symbols. Applying that to the day to day interactions, the majority of these people are cow herders etc. most are poor as poor gets etc. Why would a cow be a symbol of god. Long story short Cow = psilocybin mushrooms. The more cows you have, the more shit you have, the more mushrooms you have. Mushrooom ingestion = enlightenment. True or not, I thought that theory held more water than any other one.
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Orange clock, pencil "They threw me off the hay truck about noon..."
*Mark 15:34  Gam zeh ya’avor...
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Amphibolos
Le bourgeois gentilhomme




Registered: 05/22/09
Posts: 626
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Re: Bacteria and Mycellium [Re: Tmethyl]
#17384523 - 12/13/12 08:17 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said: Bacteria and fungi do not get along, for the most part. Any competing organisms will battle it out for territory in a substrate. There are some beneficial bacteria however, which are kept alive during the pasteurization process. But they will not cause a sweet smell. If there are bacteria in your mushrooms, you have a high chance of getting sick. If they smell, they are heavily contaminated. The mushrooms do not have a symbiotic relationship with bacteria which would cause sweet smells.
While i agree with most of what is being said here, you should have pointed out that its mostly valid if you consider the In vitro cases.
In nature the substrates arent really well defined and the relationship between bacterias and fungi are more complex than mere competition. If you take the microflora living on the wood bark for example you will notice periodicity of activity and even cooperation among the different organisms.
For example, with the lignin contained in the bark of the trees, most of the classic bacterias dont have the enzymes to degrade this compound (except actinomycetes that use some kind of peroxidases). To be able to use the lignin as an energy source the bacterias rely on complex organisms like basidomycetes to degrade the polymeric form of the lignin and create monomeres that could then be transported inside the commensal bacterial cells. Also, opportunists bacterias normally occur early on the substrate, making use of the simple sugars, lipids and proteins.
Also, you will notice that there are new cases of mutualism that are being found between bacterias and fungi. I talked about actinomycetes which are often found in the rhizosphere along with other fungi, but some examples of direct cooperation exist and have been noted.
Just take the social motile bacterias Paenibacillus vortex that have been known to transport the spores of the non motile fungi (like Aspergillus fumigatus) to help them pass obstacles. Its a nice case of cooperation between bacterias and fungi that can be readily observed even invitro.
I think i have the paper somewhere...
Sorry if i didnt understand the question being asked
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"Homo sum ; humani nihil a me alienum puto"
Edited by Amphibolos (12/13/12 08:56 AM)
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 7 months
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Re: Bacteria and Mycellium [Re: Amphibolos]
#17386034 - 12/13/12 02:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Beautifully written post Amphibolos. Intelligent and informative. Thank you for sharing your knowledge.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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thiotimoline
Stranger

Registered: 12/01/12
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Re: Bacteria and Mycellium [Re: Tmethyl]
#17386707 - 12/13/12 04:26 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Not relevant to the OP, but:
Yeast and lactobacillus species have a nice symbiosis going in sourdough starter. They digest different sugars so don't compete directly. The acid-tolerant yeast benefits from small amounts of glucose produced as a byproduct, the bacteria may get extra nutrients from dead yeast cells, and they both benefit from being in a low-pH high-ethanol environment that not many competitors can survive in.
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omegafaust
mycofarmer



Registered: 05/29/12
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Re: Bacteria and Mycellium [Re: Amanita86]
#17422883 - 12/20/12 03:54 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Amanita86 said: Hahaha git'm RR!!
Just for the sake of conversation, somewhere along my travels different sources etc. have brought up the question of why cows are worshiped, not allowed to be killed or eaten and all that. The in's and out's of which I'll be the first to tell you I don't really know. But a pretty interesting point that was brought up is,.. Cows are considered "religious" symbols. Applying that to the day to day interactions, the majority of these people are cow herders etc. most are poor as poor gets etc. Why would a cow be a symbol of god. Long story short Cow = psilocybin mushrooms. The more cows you have, the more shit you have, the more mushrooms you have. Mushrooom ingestion = enlightenment. True or not, I thought that theory held more water than any other one. 
for the sake of conversation. Cows are considered religious symbols mainly because of their ability to feed. In India, where the cow is sacred, it's mainly because of the milk. Milk which will feed man as long as the milk cow lives. As well as for their dung, which was not only used as a fertilizer, but also to start fires. The cow has several beneficial qualities.
I love the mushroom concept though :P
-------------------- The Universe has an interesting sense of irony, in that you are the universe experiencing itself. All you are is a thought.
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BleedThatMule
GuyBurder



Registered: 12/30/12
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Re: Bacteria and Mycellium [Re: omegafaust]
#17473723 - 12/30/12 09:16 PM (11 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
omegafaust said:
for the sake of conversation. Cows are considered religious symbols mainly because of their ability to feed. In India, where the cow is sacred, it's mainly because of the milk. Milk which will feed man as long as the milk cow lives. As well as for their dung, which was not only used as a fertilizer, but also to start fires. The cow has several beneficial qualities.
I love the mushroom concept though :P
It's also because Brahma could be said cow you might be slaughtering...but that's not this thread...just felt like sharing some knowledge.
With that out of the way, I recently transferred some Tak Mountain WBS jars with Bee Pollen and Gypsum into a tray, and noticed a similar honey-esque smell...but I also smelled that earthy, soily smell with it. I mixed with CC/Verm and cased and I'm gonna see how it goes.
My Z-strain didn't smell as sweet but it didn't have Bee Pollen so...As for RR's quickness to ditch the sweet-smelling jars...it's definitely optimal to ditch anything you're not too sure about if it's got some unique characteristics compared to the basic characteristics we've all read countless times...however if you're willing to risk it as I am and see what happens, then I don't foresee any negative long-term effects from ingestion if it does by some miracle fruit.
Like these other guys said, bacteria may compete and try to snatch all that nutrition up first...but it doesn't NECESSARILY mean that there cannot be some symbiotic relationship going on there...idk I'm not trying to waste any jars...not because I'm cheap but because I'm curious as to how the cakes with differing characteristics grow differently. If that means mold/sweet smell going on I'm just gonna take it to a secluded corner of the house and try casing it straight from the jar.
Only my second post...hope it wasn't just an annoying ramble >< XD
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