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Invisibledustinthewind13
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The Occult
    #17370027 - 12/10/12 07:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Would testing out the occult methodology, in order to attempt to personally experience what has been written about quite extensively, be considered using the scientific method? Not really sure about this. I'm guessing no or close but no cigar, since all that happens is a personal experience. Or even when it is a shared group experience, it seems really hard to measure any of the changes one should expect when done right, except for mutual agreement on any synchronicities that occur (can't really be considered proof and can be biased). Oh well, I don't care. I'm going to keep trying till until I'm convinced that it is useful or useless. I should at least try it before I criticize it right?


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17371053 - 12/10/12 09:59 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

A friend read my tarot once. It was creepy how well it paralleled what I was going through at that point in time. She did it about 3 times after the initial reading (in the same setting), but it got more vague with each consecutive reading.

What did you have in mind?

If you're  delving into it for a personal experience, then I say go for it and keep a journal of your experience. It may be bunk or it may be fruitful. Just take everything with a grain of salt and share with us! I'm  interested. (And be careful - one of the most rational minds was sent into a frenzy after visiting a fortune teller. He wouldn't  tell anyone what she told him and he was suicidal before that anyway, but the warning stands, I think.)


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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: The Occult [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #17371372 - 12/10/12 11:02 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I once visited a fortune teller. I was getting pissed off at her and she just wanted to do a bunch of things that cost an absurd amount of money. She didn't like my vibes the whole time, because I didn't want anything expensive and seemed skeptical I guess. I ended up going with the cheapest thing for the hell of it. She ended up guessing everything wrong. Nah. I'm more of a crowley person myself. It might just be because I have a thing for rich, bisexual drug addicts. :loveeyes: I've read quite a few other occultists, but crowley is my favorite.

I tend to not have an urge to share personal experiences, but my beliefs about the occult in general have been stated numerous times before. Here's a recent one that comes to mind. The most intriguing by far has to be enochian for me. Supposedly that's postgrad magick material though, so I'm in a bit over my head it seems. Practice makes perfect I guess and don't care if I'm skipping a bunch of stuff. I'll fuck around with the basics in the meantime. I've been experimenting with some basic alchemy lately too. I'm still waiting for some mega mindblowing experience though. And even if nothing happens, it's still an interesting story. Oh yeah. It's also very flamboyant. Got to love that part. I was sort of disappointed when I realized that the whole occult business is not really about acquiring material gains though, but is instead mainly about living a compassionate lifestyle, but I guess that's ok too I guess. And love spells don't work. I got laid once very shortly after trying to get laid with it though, but that couldn't have been an angel. It had to have been something else like intent or whatever. It felt spooky given my sexual history at the time, but I remain skeptical. :lol: At other times I also feel that demons or pissed off angels are out to get me. Sometimes I even feel like I lose control over my behavior and it feels like I'm someone or something else. Of course I have a history of psychosis, so it wouldn't surprise me at all that if all of it is just delusion and chemical imbalances on my part. Oh and psst... don't tell johnm or diploid about this... i have a thing for them too. I don't want them to think I'm crazy.

:smilingpuppy:


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineHungry Raptor
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Re: The Occult [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #17371380 - 12/10/12 11:03 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

penelope_tree said:
A friend read my tarot once. It was creepy how well it paralleled what I was going through at that point in time. She did it about 3 times after the initial reading (in the same setting), but it got more vague with each consecutive reading.

What did you have in mind?

If you're  delving into it for a personal experience, then I say go for it and keep a journal of your experience. It may be bunk or it may be fruitful. Just take everything with a grain of salt and share with us! I'm  interested. (And be careful - one of the most rational minds was sent into a frenzy after visiting a fortune teller. He wouldn't  tell anyone what she told him and he was suicidal before that anyway, but the warning stands, I think.)




The problem with Tarot is that it works.......in a very limited sense.  Magicians and mentalists have know this for a long time and the only reason they don't use it anymore is that they prefer more modern lies like "body language reading", or "subliminal messages". 

I am a quite accomplished tarot reader.  I work on a limited basis walking around at parties and doing entertainment seances for people.  (best weekend job ever!)  The thing about tarot is that people already believe...it doesn't matter how much of a skeptic they are.  I read for college groups sometimes, and the science groups are always the most fun.  All I need is a single hit and waves of relief wash over the faces of the hard nosed skeptics and they are putty in my hands.  A little cold reading after that and all I hear is "do me next!  please me next!" 

The major problem is that the cards mean whatever I want them to.  The reader creates the reality and nobody can dispute it.  For example:  The card "Death" comes out.  I look at how they react and then make up what the card means... does it mean a real death? maybe an anxiety they have? maybe it means new life is springing forth from an old death? They just went through a life change?  I can literally make the card fit ANY situation...  If you are a good cold reader (and most psychics are) then you can work miracles. 

The psychology of Tarot readings is quite fascinating.  I have seen readings where the reader gets almost nothing correct, and the client still states after the fact the they thought the reading was extremely accurate. 

All that being said, with great power comes great responsibility...  Believe it or not, I know quite a few professional fortune tellers/card readers and they all have a fairly high code of ethics (except for the whole lying for a career thing).  One girl I know has a policy that everyone leaves their reading feeling good about themselves and life in general.  The story you tell about the guy who came back and killed himself (or whatever happened) just makes me cringe.  It was not "the occult's" fault.  The blame should lie with a sleezy fortune teller who, if they are even decent at their job at all, should have seen what was going on and done something about it.  A card reader I know has sent people to the ER quite a few times and often refuses to read for certain people. 

As far as scientific evidence goes, I imagine that if anybody applied objective tests to a tarot reading then they would find that it is piss-poor at reading people.  Just like most topics in the occult, the magic happens in the participants' minds and is totally subjective.  I don't think that you can apply the scientific method in this case because the variables that are effected by participation in a tarot reading in a lab are not the same variables that are effected in an "organic" tarot reading.  Does that make sense?


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: The Occult [Re: Hungry Raptor]
    #17371419 - 12/10/12 11:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Fuck that. I don't want anyone reading my tarot. I want to do it myself. Who better to analyze what it means to me than myself right? And whats the point in doing tarot if your not going to learn the symbols in-depth and correlate them to the kabbalah? Not point if you ask me.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17371446 - 12/10/12 11:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Fuck that. I don't want anyone reading my tarot. I want to do it myself. Who better to analyze what it means to me than myself right? And whats the point in doing tarot if your not going to learn the symbols in-depth and correlate them to the kabbalah? Not point if you ask me.




People who read tarot for themselves usually report that they have great success.  I think that is why it's so popular.  You can learn a lot by reading your own spreads, but it seems to me that this is a function of pondering your own psychological issues with a kind of "map" in front of you.  I would liken it to visiting a shrink and they just constantly ask you "how does that make you feel?"  I imagine that a lot of good can come of it, although if you get too close to the "edge" it can probably also be harmful... just my $0.02


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17371468 - 12/10/12 11:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Would testing out the occult methodology, in order to attempt to personally experience what has been written about quite extensively, be considered using the scientific method? Not really sure about this. I'm guessing no or close but no cigar, since all that happens is a personal experience. Or even when it is a shared group experience, it seems really hard to measure any of the changes one should expect when done right, except for mutual agreement on any synchronicities that occur (can't really be considered proof and can be biased). Oh well, I don't care. I'm going to keep trying till until I'm convinced that it is useful or useless. I should at least try it before I criticize it right?




Still think it's the scientific method, but for now at least certain experiences are beyond analysis. One good test is: learn how to leave the body, find someone else who can, communicate something to eachother. Write it down in detail and then read eachother's notes.

If the results are accurate and repeatable, then that's all the proof one should need. Past that it's just doubting for the sake of it.

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: The Occult [Re: Hungry Raptor]
    #17371489 - 12/10/12 11:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The occult takes forever to get anywhere though. I've spend hours and hours studying it and I'm still a noob. At times I feel an ill prepared approach has resulted in me or whatever making a fool of myself. Of course everything might be a misattribution and whatnot. Maybe someday I'll realize that it is just my mind playing tricks on me. It's also funny that my other main field of interest and future profession is neuroscience. Weird combo a?


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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OfflineHungry Raptor
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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17371503 - 12/10/12 11:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
The occult takes forever to get anywhere though. I've spend hours and hours studying it and I'm still a noob. At times I feel an ill prepared approach has resulted in me or whatever making a fool of myself. Of course everything might be a misattribution and whatnot. Maybe someday I'll realize that it is just my mind playing tricks on me. It's also funny that my other main field of interest and future profession is neuroscience. Weird combo a?




I don't think that is a weird combo at all.  I think that is a fascinating combo...although perhaps for my own reasons.


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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Invisibledustinthewind13
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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17371509 - 12/10/12 11:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Would testing out the occult methodology, in order to attempt to personally experience what has been written about quite extensively, be considered using the scientific method? Not really sure about this. I'm guessing no or close but no cigar, since all that happens is a personal experience. Or even when it is a shared group experience, it seems really hard to measure any of the changes one should expect when done right, except for mutual agreement on any synchronicities that occur (can't really be considered proof and can be biased). Oh well, I don't care. I'm going to keep trying till until I'm convinced that it is useful or useless. I should at least try it before I criticize it right?




Still think it's the scientific method, but for now at least certain experiences are beyond analysis. One good test is: learn how to leave the body, find someone else who can, communicate something to eachother. Write it down in detail and then read eachother's notes.

If the results are accurate and repeatable, then that's all the proof one should need. Past that it's just doubting for the sake of it.




I tend to become extremely skeptical when it comes to leaving my own mind. I'm already skeptical enough of the tarot and the like as it is, although I tend to slip into fantastical dreams sometimes. I'm quite crazy. :crazy:

edit. what makes you think it's using the scientifical method. I think its possible, but as far as the scientific method is concerned it is all bunk.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

Edited by dustinthewind13 (12/10/12 11:37 PM)

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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17371608 - 12/11/12 12:04 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
edit. what makes you think it's using the scientifical method. I think its possible, but as far as the scientific method is concerned it is all bunk.




If the results are repeatable and communicable between people. Success with the given example would be anything but bunk, two people would have to leave the body and communicate something to eachother - in the physical write down the communication and check eachothers answer. For the individuals involved that's quite a bit of evidence of the authenticity of the experience should the answers be correct, anyone looking for an answer could try the experiment.

My only problem with this experiment is the difficulty in inducing an experience at will, in a given year I'll have many experiences but most days not to the extent needed to carry out the experiment. On top of that I know no one personally who even meditates, let alone has OBEs.

Tarot reading is a lot more suspect than OBEs, there's nothing backing it scientifically or in the sense of an overwhelming experience which easily overshadows psychedelics as in OBEs. Not even sure if there's a point to Tarot reading, an OBE experience however relieves Death Anxiety and if nothing else is extremely thrilling.

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OfflineHungry Raptor
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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17371744 - 12/11/12 12:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
If the results are repeatable and communicable between people. Success with the given example would be anything but bunk, two people would have to leave the body and communicate something to eachother - in the physical write down the communication and check eachothers answer. For the individuals involved that's quite a bit of evidence of the authenticity of the experience should the answers be correct, anyone looking for an answer could try the experiment.



This is not how the scientific method works.  If your evidence is strong enough you should be able to convince me of your assertion even though I have never experienced it myself.

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Tarot reading is a lot more suspect than OBEs, there's nothing backing it scientifically or in the sense of an overwhelming experience which easily overshadows psychedelics as in OBEs.




Why is it more suspect?  The claim that a person can see into the past or future via a particular medium seems no more absurd to me that the claim that my consciousness can somehow disengage from my physical body and co-mingle with another consciousness from another physical location.  Most of the tests that I can think of that would quantify and OBE involve obtaining privileged information from a location or time I do not have access to which sounds only superficially different from the object of a Tarot reading. 

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Not even sure if there's a point to Tarot reading...



A person who believes in tarot would tell you that the main point is divination of your true will.  Knowing what course in life is the best for you and is most in tune with your life purpose and whatnot.  I can see how that would relieve death anxiety if you believe that you are living in step with how you should be living...

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
an OBE experience however ... if nothing else is extremely thrilling.



You have obviously never had a GOOD tarot reading.  A skilled reader can give you an experience you will remember for a LONG time.


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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Re: The Occult [Re: Hungry Raptor]
    #17371809 - 12/11/12 01:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hungry Raptor said:




Well man I'm not going to keep arguing about the point of whether or not this type of experiment can be considered along the 'scientific method', thats not even really important if the method is valid.

The reason I said above that Tarot reading is more suspect is because there's no proof, never heard of any Tarot reading which didn't sound like cold reading. Your own method as outlined above sounds like nothing more than cold reading.

An OBE on the other hand as I said above, is a very lucid and intense experience. More so than any psychedelic I've tried and the intensity gives it something tangible, so that whether or not the subject believes it to be something signifigant it undeniably happened.

With Tarot reading its just: "Death card... this means change, there's going to be a change with someone in this room soon..."

Then again, an OBE can be more like: sitting in your bedroom closed eyes watching a little blue ball, suddenly ripped out of your body at high speed.

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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17371868 - 12/11/12 01:28 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
The reason I said above that Tarot reading is more suspect is because there's no proof...




Part of my point is that there is no "proof" of OBEs either.

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Your own method as outlined above sounds like nothing more than cold reading.



My own method is exactly nothing more than cold reading along with a few other psych tricks/tools.  I get paid to give people an interesting experience.  I can see however how some people could claim that tarot is a valuable tool for exploring themselves.  I could make a similar claim to yours with regards to OBEs that it sounds like nothing more than brain chemistry problems...
   
Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
An OBE on the other hand as I said above, is a very lucid and intense experience. More so than any psychedelic I've tried and the intensity gives it something tangible, so that whether or not the subject believes it to be something signifigant it undeniably happened.



Arguing that a particular type of subjective experience of yours is more valuable and meaningful than a subjective experience of someone else seems hypocritical...


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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Re: The Occult [Re: Hungry Raptor]
    #17371874 - 12/11/12 01:29 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Hungry Raptor said:





:cheers: I'm off to smoke a joint and drink some of that sweet cherry red

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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17371896 - 12/11/12 01:37 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

puff, puff, pass?  :jah:


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17371973 - 12/11/12 02:12 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

crowley is my favorite.


Would you think that if you know his influence on a genocidal ecocidal elite destroying planet earth?

THAT his 'do what thou wilt...' is really a law meant for the debauched predatory aristocratic insane fucks and NOT for all people

Do what thou wilt is wallowing in selfishness and not giving a shit about others

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17372029 - 12/11/12 02:39 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

crowley is my favorite.


Would you think that if you know his influence on a genocidal ecocidal elite destroying planet earth?





I had no idea crowley was thousands of years old or more. Seriously though, the same could be said about einstein and the atomic bomb. You think he wanted them to blow up thousands of innocent people?

Quote:

THAT his 'do what thou wilt...' is really a law meant for the debauched predatory aristocratic insane fucks and NOT for all people




Why do the insane fucks get to have all the fun? :shakefist:

Quote:

Do what thou wilt is wallowing in selfishness and not giving a shit about others




You have a point. People, listen up. From now on do what zzripz wilt of you, because he knows what's best for you.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz] * 1
    #17372037 - 12/11/12 02:45 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Quote:

crowley is my favorite.


Would you think that if you know his influence on a genocidal ecocidal elite destroying planet earth?




In my experience Crowley's influence on the world is approximately zero.  In fact, it seems kind of strange to imply that there is a group of people who are sitting around saying: "Should we worry about the rain forest?...nah, Crowley said we can do what we want."

Quote:

zzripz said:

THAT his 'do what thou wilt...' is really a law meant for the debauched predatory aristocratic insane fucks and NOT for all people

Do what thou wilt is wallowing in selfishness and not giving a shit about others




Now I don't claim to be an expert in Thelemic philosophy.  In fact, since I don't believe any of it, I can't really speak for what Thelemites believe.  However, my understanding of his 'do what thou wilt' is that it refers to 'True Will' which arises through an interplay of the self with the universe.  This will is in perfect harmony with nature.  There is always the possibility that you may will an action that is 'false will' although these actions arise from selfishness.  In a nut shell, According to Crowley, many of the wills that people have are by definition 'wrong'.  He is not saying do whatever you want.  He is saying find your will that is in harmony with the universe and act on that...if you do that, then that is the whole of the law.

All that said, I still think it is a piss-poor method of choosing right and wrong actions.  :stirthepot:  :stirthepot:


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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Re: The Occult [Re: Hungry Raptor]
    #17372051 - 12/11/12 02:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

My interpretation of it is that we should do whatever the fuck we want. He also includes under love, which has been said to mean as long as you are not hurting anyone. It is usually in brackets though, which I'm not sure why, but I'm guessing it is because he is also giving people the option of harming someone. Might be because he doesn't want to control other peoples actions at all? Don't know really. :shrug: Haven't read as much about thelema as the rest of his work.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17372082 - 12/11/12 03:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"Understand first that the Disturbers of the Peace of Mankind do so by Reason of their Ignorance of their own True Wills. Therefore, as this Wisdom of mine increaseth among Mankind, the false Will to Crime must become constantly more rare."    -A. Crowley New Commentary on Liber AL vel Legis "The Book of the Law"

I take this to be a demonstration of this idea that I exposited above.  Is it not the case?  I'm not being sarcastic at all here, I honestly want to know if I am misunderstanding what he is saying.

I guess I could see how one might say that he is not trying to directly control the actions of others but rather wants to lead them to an understanding of their own wills which will cause them to then take correct action?

Sorry for hijacking your thread...


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“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17372138 - 12/11/12 03:48 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Crowley was merely a pawn of the Reptilians.


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Re: The Occult [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #17372249 - 12/11/12 05:02 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Have any of you read this book:

Prophet of Evil: Aleister Crowley, 9/11 and the New World Order

It is very very odd, but this author argues that Crowley's influence is all over the 9/11 attacks. EVEN the very numbers attached to the supposed planes involved, Flights 11, 175, 77, and 93 are all numbers important in Crowley's magickal numerological system.
Quote:


THE 9-11 WORKING


      If one considers the multitude of numerically significant markers connected to Aleister Crowley, the certainty of occult influence in the events of 9/11 must be concluded. Each of the plane numbers involved in the 9/11 incident refer directly to the prime numbers of Crowley's system.  The numbers of the flights are respectively: 11, 77, 93, 175.  Aleister Crowley wrote about each of these numbers specifically, and emphasized their importance as shown below:

      11:

    "Firstly", 11 is the number of Magick in itself. It is therefore suitable to all types of operation.

    "Secondly", it is the sacred number par excellence of the new Aeon. As it is written in the Book of the Law:

    "...11, as all their numbers who are of us."1

    77:

    The sublime and supreme septenary in its mature magical manifestation through matter...written in Hebrew Ayin Zayin (OZ)...Capricornus, the Devil of the Tarot; which is the picture of the Goat of the Sabbath on an altar.2 

77 also represents half of the formulation of sexual magic in both the O.T.O. and the Kabbalah.3  It is also the 77 infernal names of the Devil in The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey.4 

    93:

The cabalistic gematria5 values of the Greek words Thelema (Will), Agape (Love) and, Aiwass6 in Crowley's magical system equate to the number 93. 

    "The matter is of extreme importance; because Aiwass in dictating The Book of the Law repeatedly makes use of correspondences in Greek, such as Thelema, Will, 93 --- Agape, Love, 93. 718 = Stele 666, and so on...Thus his own name spelt in Hebrew has the value 93."7
   
   

    175:

Liber 175 in Crowley's magical system is a ritual used to invoke any deity by adoration. 

      "There are three main methods of invoking any deity:

      The first method consists of devotion to that deity... being mainly  mystical in character, they may not be dealt with in this place, especially  as a perfect instruction exists in Liber 175.

      The second method is the straightforward ceremonial invocation...

  The third method is the dramatic, perhaps the most attractive of all;  certainly it is so to the artist temperament, for it appeals to his  imagination through his aesthetic sense."8

      These numbers are essential to the occult, magical system devised by Aleister Crowley. Thus, Crowley's most important numbers, or "prime" numbers, were inserted in to the 9/11 event intentionally.  The likelihood that the numbers appear at random are infinitesimal.  I also argue that the numbers 11, 93, 77, and 175 represent a signaling function to all Crowley's followers in the global occult community that the events were an "inside job."

      Thus, based on the numerical markers, we can observe the demonic, Crowleyean influence upon the events of 9/11 and sense the hidden, occult agenda behind the event.  To better understand Crowley's connection to September 11th, a detailed explication of this hidden tie is contained in my book Prophet of Evil: Aleister Crowley, 9/11 and the New World Order, available on Kindle and at my website: www.occult911.com.



He was the self-acclaimed Prophet of the New Aeon, read New World Order, where the elite 'do what they will'

Quote:

The 9/11 attacks upon the people of the United States, deceptively blamed upon radical Muslims, initiated revolutionary change in the U.S. and the world.  The September 11 attacks led to:

          An imperial presidency in the United States
          Two wars of aggression in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well  as secret conflicts and assassinations throughout the world
          The renunciation of individual and human rights in the U.S. and Europe
          The use of torture and the elimination of 900 years of tradition in the revocation of habeus corpus
          Massive increases in military spending
          An innovative, technocratic, cradle-to-grave surveillance state in many Western countries
          The transformation of the character of political institutions in the United States and throughout the world towards globalization.




THE GREAT BEAST


     
Quote:

Aleister Crowley (1875-1947), the foremost occultist of the early 20th century, dedicated his life to the dark arts.  A wealthy, Cambridge-educated world traveler, Crowley (rhymes with holy) associated with the artistic and cultural luminaries of his era, including such noted figures as Ernest Hemingway, W. B. Yeats and H. L. Mencken.  Fully committed to the transformation and illumination of the entire world, Crowley (also known as the Great Beast) wrote numerous books detailing his vision of the ideal society: the strong over the weak, the maintenance of a patriarchal aristocracy ruling over a slave state, and the Darwinian killing of the unfit.  According to the Beast, a small elite must rule over the masses: "You will observe that I am advocating an aristocratic revolution.  And so I am!"





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most 'masters' of what is referred to as occult were charlatans [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17373095 - 12/11/12 09:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

most 'masters' of what is referred to as occult were charlatans
- snake oil salesmen using the term 'hidden' (~=occult) as an excuse for not being upfront or honest.
crowley was the worst.
and the least consistent.
and the most abusive.

on the other hand,
yoga can be very healthy,
tarot can help you understand your own symbols (not for fortune telling)
and meditation is not occult - it is the development of the opposite - awareness.
these things have been lumped with occult and are about the only handy things you can find near the occult domains-
by all means look
do not spend money on it.


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Re: The Occult [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #17375705 - 12/11/12 05:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Crowley was merely a pawn of the Reptilians.




That's true. He was an agent at MI5 for the British government. A lot of people believe he was a bad person, but that doesn't change the entertainment value of his work IMO.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17378227 - 12/12/12 02:26 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

would you say 9/11 was entertainment?

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17380821 - 12/12/12 03:56 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Witchcraft had its birth in Ancient Sumeria and Babylonia. The Phoneticians were a Semitic people. Their beleif system dealt with various Deities. The Christians feared the Phonecians because many of their Deities were in fact Demons. Baal and Astarorth or Ashtaroth are both mentioned to be very powerful Demons. Baal was often called Beelzebub meaning "The lord of flies" He was given this name because it is said that flies would come and fetch the souls of the weak. Inanna or Ishtar is also another Deity, but she is not a Demon but the Goddess of the sky. The Phoneticians then transferred witchcraft to the ancient Pharaohs where it was practiced in a much more sophisticated way. Heka is the name for Egyptian witchcraft. Many of the pyramids have scripts within them that discuss the evocation and invocation of spirits.

Wicca is a rebirth form of Witchcraft. I am not a fan of Wicca because it doesn't entail the various rituals that real Witchcraft contains. It also seems to lead people away from Demons. No one really knows what a Demon is. The same goes for Angels. I personally believe that Demons are supernatural beings from another realm. Angels are Aliens. No all Demons are wicked and ruthless. Some in the Ars Goetia Grimoire are of a good nature and some are wicked.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buer_%28demon%29 a good Demon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andras#Marquis_Andras Evil and wicked Demon.

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17381824 - 12/12/12 06:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
My interpretation of it is that we should do whatever the fuck we want.




that would be a misinterpretation of thelemic philosophy. do what though wilt shall be the whole of the law essentially means that when you are acting in accord with your will, which can perhaps best be seen in crowleyian cosmology as the Self, you are acting in complete accord with the highest aspect of your being. the uncovering of the will is the principle aim of magick. love is the law, law under will is another tricky phrase that tends to be misinterpreted. when crowley refers to love, he is referring to a positive force that binds and animates all of reality. if love is the law, and that law is under will, by manifesting your will you are taking control of your reality. this is why occultim is widely referred to as "the left hand path" because you are essentially turning against the natural order of the universe and freeing yourself from its power, at least in a philosophical and psychological sense. magick is ultimately a way of achieving self mastery.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17381886 - 12/12/12 06:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
Have any of you read this book:






no, because on the outset it looks ridiculous. crowley, however, would probably think it's a riot.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17381920 - 12/12/12 07:03 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Certainly. It's all been done over the centuries though. There's a famous series on Occult Philosophy that is almost humorous to read now. It explains things like the generation of insects or mold in closed jars. Back when it was written it was considered good science, but a lot of advancements have been made in the last 500 years. We know better than alchemy now. lol It's almost as bad a reading an 1899 Edition of the Merck Manual, which recommends using mercury to treat certain diseases like melancholy. It would be a treat to see how future humans view our primitive views 1000 years from now, things like drilling holes in the skull for brain surgery and chemotherapy will probably go down in the trash bin of bad science like bleedings and leeches to get the bad blood out. It's considered good science now, because we are so primitive, but that will certainly change.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: The Occult [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #17381940 - 12/12/12 07:06 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

occultism remains to be useful to those who understand it though.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17381996 - 12/12/12 07:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The better the understanding we gain of science the less mystical or occult explanations are needed to fill the gaps knowledge. People used to think that the reason women have pain in childbirth was because some ancestor took a fruit from a talking snake. Now not even people who still claim to believe in Hebrew mythology are buying that one. Science is the solution to ignorance. Occultism is just debunked bad science, probably like our's will be 1000 years from now. I can imagine our descendants slapping their foreheads and almost not believing that we burned fossil fuels for energy. lol


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17382116 - 12/12/12 07:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
My interpretation of it is that we should do whatever the fuck we want.




that would be a misinterpretation of thelemic philosophy. do what though wilt shall be the whole of the law essentially means that when you are acting in accord with your will, which can perhaps best be seen in crowleyian cosmology as the Self, you are acting in complete accord with the highest aspect of your being. the uncovering of the will is the principle aim of magick. love is the law, law under will is another tricky phrase that tends to be misinterpreted. when crowley refers to love, he is referring to a positive force that binds and animates all of reality. if love is the law, and that law is under will, by manifesting your will you are taking control of your reality. this is why occultim is widely referred to as "the left hand path" because you are essentially turning against the natural order of the universe and freeing yourself from its power, at least in a philosophical and psychological sense. magick is ultimately a way of achieving self mastery.




Isn't that the detailed description of what the rest of the book is about? I thought everything in the book of the law is rooted in "do what thou wilt..." and "every man and women is a star" and hence both of these sentences together are what you are talking about as far as I know. I've heard other people explain just the "do what thou wilt" sentence like I did. Everything else is just crowleys belief on the best way to achieve that.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #17382118 - 12/12/12 07:39 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rail_Gun said:
The better the understanding we gain of science the less mystical or occult explanations are needed to fill the gaps knowledge. People used to think that the reason women have pain in childbirth was because some ancestor took a fruit from a talking snake. Now not even people who still claim to believe in Hebrew mythology are buying that one. Science is the solution to ignorance. Occultism is just debunked bad science, probably like our's will be 1000 years from now. I can imagine our descendants slapping their foreheads and almost not believing that we burned fossil fuels for energy. lol




occultism is a set of philosophical models that aim to empower an individual through a controlled series of rigorous studies and ritualistic works. they are not intended to supplant any sort of scientific models. moreover, the term "occult" simply means "hidden", and "mystical" refers to any experience that is beyond our ability to communicate after the fact, sometimes through ritual and other times through extreme conditions of emotional and/or physical ecstasy or stress. i'm not sure what you mean by "occult" and "mystical" explanations for how reality works. what you seem to be referring to is "the god of the gaps", which is a reference to backing a claim on the basis of the workings of a teleological god ("grand designer") in lieu of empirical data. the argument for a teleological god has been largely dismissed with the exception of evangelist retards, and it has absolutely nothing to do with the occult.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (12/12/12 07:39 PM)

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Re: The Occult [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #17382199 - 12/12/12 07:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rail_Gun said:
Certainly. It's all been done over the centuries though. There's a famous series on Occult Philosophy that is almost humorous to read now. It explains things like the generation of insects or mold in closed jars. Back when it was written it was considered good science, but a lot of advancements have been made in the last 500 years. We know better than alchemy now. lol It's almost as bad a reading an 1899 Edition of the Merck Manual, which recommends using mercury to treat certain diseases like melancholy. It would be a treat to see how future humans view our primitive views 1000 years from now, things like drilling holes in the skull for brain surgery and chemotherapy will probably go down in the trash bin of bad science like bleedings and leeches to get the bad blood out. It's considered good science now, because we are so primitive, but that will certainly change.




Alchemy has a spiritual and scientific side to it. You're talking about the scientific one and we are now really able to convert lead into gold, however it is expensive and not worth it. The spiritual side is about enchancing certain aspects of your personality basically. Don't get me wrong, I don't think it is mind blowing, but as a psychologist I'm curious how efficiently it can change my behavior so that I get more out of life. Of course it takes a lot of practice for the advanced methods, but I'm doing it all out of curiosity, since I don't believe it has a supernatural aspect to it. Its just experimenting with elaborate neurolinguistic programming if you ask me and I don't think our mind is completely maleable. And I also learn a lot about mythology and storytelling likely had a positive influence on society and still does. It's a form of comparative mythology, especially thelema. I don't take the symbols literally, but I'm curious whether the descriptions parallel reality at all. To me its all basically a process in which I try to understand myself as much as possible and change my behavior in accordance to what I have learned.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17382305 - 12/12/12 08:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Isn't that the detailed description of what the rest of the book is about? I thought everything in the book of the law is rooted in "do what thou wilt..." and "every man and women is a star" and hence both of these sentences together are what you are talking about as far as I know. I've heard other people explain just the "do what thou wilt" sentence like I did. Everything else is just crowleys belief on the best way to achieve that.




well, no because "doing whatever we want" often isn't what's best for us. our true will, according to crowley, is essentially the highest, most noble aspect of our being. for example you couldn't claim that having hopelessly addictive tendencies as a manifestation of your true will, because ultimately you're subservient to those impulses before anything else, including your true will. discovering your true will is magickal work which aims to basically deprogram your cultural indoctrination. this deprogramming isn't necessarily designed for you to abandon whatever social conventions your culture has impressed you with, but rather it's training for you to see them as mere social or linguistic constructs so they don't have any power over you. magickal work is also deprogramming you from your fears. the reason why the occult is associated with all this "scary" imagery of demons and monsters and stuff we generally regard with fear is not because those things are venerated in practice - which is why most people view the occult as "worship of evil". quite the contrary. the imagery is there in order for you to overcome being afraid of those things. if you confront monsters, and twist them to your desires during rituals that tends to translate to having more control over yourself and the way you react to your circumstances in real life. and that's what it's all about; getting things done in real life. it's a means to an end.

anyway, crowley designed a sort of rubric in order to achieve this type of extreme individual freedom, which he referred to as having "the method of science with the aim of religion". crowleyian magick is scientific in the sense that the rubric is such that if you do x, y will happen. the religious aspect comes in with the discovery of your true will and having "the conversation with the holy guardian angel", which is the personification of your highest self, or true will, during what is called the abramelin operation; a ritual designed for higher level initiates who have gone through all the steps of their magickal work in order to successfully perform it.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (12/12/12 08:06 PM)

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17382367 - 12/12/12 08:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What if certain people truly don't wilt to culturally uncondition themselves?


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17382392 - 12/12/12 08:18 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
What if certain people truly don't wilt to culturally uncondition themselves?




then they aren't successful magicians. if you're unwilling to let it all go then magick isn't for you.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17382405 - 12/12/12 08:19 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'm of the opinion that spirituality is what scientifically naive people involve themselves in. It makes sense when you have no other explanation. There are almost certainly psychic phenomena for example, proven repeatable experiments. That is explained through "quantum entanglement". Particles remain connected instantaneously regardless of space time gaps. It's something we're just beginning to understand but is a known and real phenomena. Things are only occult or unexplained so long as the operators are ignorant of the mechanisms responsible for them.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

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Re: The Occult [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #17382443 - 12/12/12 08:26 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The occult is explained, but it isn't proven. It's a do it yourself type of thing. You are not pressured into believing in it or doing it. Crowley encouraged people to not believe him and try for themselves if they had the will.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17382451 - 12/12/12 08:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

again, occult does not mean unexplained. it means hidden.

also, "psychic" phenomenon has in no way been explained by quantum physics.


--------------------
I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

Edited by millzy (12/12/12 08:30 PM)

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17382497 - 12/12/12 08:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Now that it isn't hidden anymore it's more of a term encompassing everything spiritual and mystical in nature. I guess it's more obsolete than not and can be interchangeable with esotericism I think.


--------------------
"It is the peculiar quality of a fool to perceive the faults of others and forget his own." - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

"Do not bite at the bait of pleasure, till you know there is no hook beneath it." -Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17382537 - 12/12/12 08:43 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

no. true will is that which is continually hidden until we uncover it through magickal work. therefore "occult" is not an outdated term. esotericism refers to an approach to any tradition i.e. esoteric christianity, which focuses on the less obvious messages that scripture is attempting to convey with its various metaphors, allegories and logical tricks.


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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17382569 - 12/12/12 08:48 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Didn't know that. Ooops.


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"A room without books is like a body without a soul."  - Marcus Tullius Cicero

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17382774 - 12/12/12 09:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
no. true will is that which is continually hidden until we uncover it through magickal work. therefore "occult" is not an outdated term.




Quote:

millzy said: refers to an approach to any tradition i.e. esoteric christianity, which focuses on the less obvious messages that scripture is attempting to convey with its various metaphors, allegories and logical tricks




thanks, quoting to make note, :cheers:

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Re: The Occult [Re: falcon]
    #17382930 - 12/12/12 09:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

:thumbup:


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17384008 - 12/13/12 02:29 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
My interpretation of it is that we should do whatever the fuck we want.




that would be a misinterpretation of thelemic philosophy. do what though wilt shall be the whole of the law essentially means that when you are acting in accord with your will, which can perhaps best be seen in crowleyian cosmology as the Self, you are acting in complete accord with the highest aspect of your being. the uncovering of the will is the principle aim of magick. love is the law, law under will is another tricky phrase that tends to be misinterpreted. when crowley refers to love, he is referring to a positive force that binds and animates all of reality. if love is the law, and that law is under will, by manifesting your will you are taking control of your reality. this is why occultim is widely referred to as "the left hand path" because you are essentially turning against the natural order of the universe and freeing yourself from its power, at least in a philosophical and psychological sense. magick is ultimately a way of achieving self mastery.




How can love be 'law'? Love is a natural unforced spontaneous dynamic. The second you call it or feel it as a law you kill it. The same is done in traditional Judeo-Christian religion where its believers are commanded to love 'God'. You can't command love because that is not love it is fear pretending to be love.
And turning against the natural order of the universe is the most ignoreant thing you can do. This is why the planet Earth, it species, including other humans exploited, are all in such a terrible mess, and its because the control freaks at the helm are a sorry mixture of traditional religionists, occultists, and atheists all of which stem from a patriarchal worldview which fears and hates nature and the body and wants total control/mastery either through their 'God' or through their own limited minds which they believe are god-like.

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17384013 - 12/13/12 02:31 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

zzripz said:
Have any of you read this book:






no, because on the outset it looks ridiculous. crowley, however, would probably think it's a riot.




IF you do not take time to read it how can you know about what he says, and judge it? And surely Crowley wallowed in his self-image and other peoples image of him as The Great Beast.

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17384049 - 12/13/12 02:45 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:


well, no because "doing whatever we want" often isn't what's best for us. our true will, according to crowley, is essentially the highest, most noble aspect of our being. for example you couldn't claim that having hopelessly addictive tendencies as a manifestation of your true will, because ultimately you're subservient to those impulses before anything else, including your true will. discovering your true will is magickal work which aims to basically deprogram your cultural indoctrination. this deprogramming isn't necessarily designed for you to abandon whatever social conventions your culture has impressed you with, but rather it's training for you to see them as mere social or linguistic constructs so they don't have any power over you. magickal work is also deprogramming you from your fears. the reason why the occult is associated with all this "scary" imagery of demons and monsters and stuff we generally regard with fear is not because those things are venerated in practice - which is why most people view the occult as "worship of evil". quite the contrary. the imagery is there in order for you to overcome being afraid of those things. if you confront monsters, and twist them to your desires during rituals that tends to translate to having more control over yourself and the way you react to your circumstances in real life. and that's what it's all about; getting things done in real life. it's a means to an end.





lol Crowley died a hopless heroin addict. Says a lot for his 'will' doesn't it? Me thinks he bragged too much about 'Will'.
But listen, you know them by their fruits. LOOK directly at things.

I gave up a decades long cannabis habit and combined very serious habit. I didn't go to no doctor, or shrink. I just did it because I sensed danger. I didn't have to read any occult book, or Bible. And I didn't need patches or counselling. I am not bragging about it, but just letting you know that I have will too, but I dont make a religion out of it---and/or distort what it means like Crowley did and then ironically die from lack of it.

Hitler was all about 'Will to Power'. Ian Brady, an evil English child torturing and murdering serial killer was a fan of Hitler, and he was all into the 'will' and becoming a 'superman' having mastery over the body and emotions, etc.

Crowley like his crowlyites doing all sorts of bad shit in the world are psychotic control-freaks. Seeing this must make you seriously question this whole enterprise or else you start getting sucked into its foolishness as well. I am not even anti-magic. But I think THIS mindset's magick is the kind that is very destructive to one's self and others and planet Earth.

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17384098 - 12/13/12 03:05 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

lol Crowley died a hopless heroin addict




Watts died a hopeless alcholic.

McKenna died a hopeless stoner.

Lilly died a hopeless ketamine junkie.

Leary died a hopeless acid-head.


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Re: The Occult [Re: dustinthewind13]
    #17384395 - 12/13/12 07:11 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

dustinthewind13 said:
Now that it isn't hidden anymore it's more of a term encompassing everything spiritual and mystical in nature. I guess it's more obsolete than not and can be interchangeable with esotericism I think.




The very fact that there are threads about whether things like demonic possession and telepathy are in fact real is a sure sign that there has been huge success in keeping the occult hidden.  Like things have been moving in the opposite direction.

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17384910 - 12/13/12 10:12 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
lol Crowley died a hopless heroin addict. Says a lot for his 'will' doesn't it? Me thinks he bragged too much about 'Will'. But listen, you know them by their fruits. LOOK directly at things.




crowley was a flawed and complicated person. also i think it's important to note that he was prescribed heroin for his asthma and died of a lung infection. this was when opiates were regularly prescribed for everything. i'm not sure how relevant that fact of the matter is in regards to his philosophy and occult philosophy in general though, which is what i'm talking about.

Quote:

I gave up a decades long cannabis habit and combined very serious habit. I didn't go to no doctor, or shrink. I just did it because I sensed danger. I didn't have to read any occult book, or Bible. And I didn't need patches or counselling. I am not bragging about it, but just letting you know that I have will too, but I dont make a religion out of it---and/or distort what it means like Crowley did and then ironically die from lack of it.




congratulations? :shrug:

Quote:

Hitler was all about 'Will to Power'. Ian Brady, an evil English child torturing and murdering serial killer was a fan of Hitler, and he was all into the 'will' and becoming a 'superman' having mastery over the body and emotions, etc.




therefore everyone who espouses existentialist views is a mass murderer. airtight claim you have there. 

Quote:

Crowley like his crowlyites doing all sorts of bad shit in the world are psychotic control-freaks. Seeing this must make you seriously question this whole enterprise or else you start getting sucked into its foolishness as well. I am not even anti-magic. But I think THIS mindset's magick is the kind that is very destructive to one's self and others and planet Earth.




for one, lol, it's thelemite. secondly, what?


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Edited by millzy (12/13/12 10:16 AM)

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17384987 - 12/13/12 10:33 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
How can love be 'law'? Love is a natural unforced spontaneous dynamic. The second you call it or feel it as a law you kill it. The same is done in traditional Judeo-Christian religion where its believers are commanded to love 'God'. You can't command love because that is not love it is fear pretending to be love.
And turning against the natural order of the universe is the most ignoreant thing you can do. This is why the planet Earth, it species, including other humans exploited, are all in such a terrible mess, and its because the control freaks at the helm are a sorry mixture of traditional religionists, occultists, and atheists all of which stem from a patriarchal worldview which fears and hates nature and the body and wants total control/mastery either through their 'God' or through their own limited minds which they believe are god-like.




crowleyian love is a term with its own unique definition which fits into his (crowley's) philosophical model in its own unique way, as i explain above. i really don't know what you're trying to say here, but it must be reemphasized that all i'm doing is explaining crowley's model and clarifying some misconceptions regarding the occult in general.



Quote:

zzripz said:
IF you do not take time to read it how can you know about what he says, and judge it? And surely Crowley wallowed in his self-image and other peoples image of him as The Great Beast.




because just like i know the moon isn't made out of cheese, i know enough about crowley and the occult to know better than to pay any serious intellectual attention to this illuminati conspiracy theory horseshit which is solely derived from gross ignorance and misunderstandings about the occult.


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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17386114 - 12/13/12 02:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

In other words you won't LOOK. Admit it? If you want to find out you have to look don't you? Remember Galileo and his telescope, the church dogmatists wouldn't look through it. YOU won't look at the evidence which shows how the occult is all over 9/11, and the mindset is very destructive.

In that book I mentioned is a photograph of Crowley's mate and disciple Victor Neuberg. You see in the photograph how his arms are covered in scars via self-inflicted cuts, because he is trying to get Crowlyian 'will' via mastering the body and mind as his mentor advised.
This is not love it is will.

Edited by zzripz (12/13/12 02:33 PM)

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17386647 - 12/13/12 04:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

i think i clearly admitted it my post above that i wouldn't LOOK at it. i don't need confirmation to know that it's a silly premise built on nothing but ignorance and misinformation.

and again, you have chosen to ignore the fact that my post was an explanation of crowleyian/thelemic cosmology.


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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17387524 - 12/13/12 06:58 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
when crowley refers to love, he is referring to a positive force that binds and animates all of reality. if love is the law, and that law is under will, by manifesting your will you are taking control of your reality. this is why occultim is widely referred to as "the left hand path" because you are essentially turning against the natural order of the universe and freeing yourself from its power, at least in a philosophical and psychological sense.




Crowley himself denounces the left-hand path, as that constitutes separating the ego from the Universe and calcifying it into a permanent, independent Self. In contrast the right-hand path, as described and practiced by him, is designed to annihilate the ego in Samadhi.

:ilold: at the belief that Crowley had anything to do with 9/11.


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Re: The Occult [Re: deCypher]
    #17388194 - 12/13/12 08:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Crowley himself denounces the left-hand path, as that constitutes separating the ego from the Universe and calcifying it into a permanent, independent Self. In contrast the right-hand path, as described and practiced by him, is designed to annihilate the ego in Samadhi.




that's actually a good point. crowley is in a bit of a gray area when it comes to distinguishing him between the left and right hand path. he could be considered both. the AA has options for the adeptus exemptus, a high grade of initiate to either:

1. annhiliate himself and become an embryonic "babe of the abyss"

or

2. remain in the abyss isolated from the universe and become a "black brother"

option 1 is the path to ipsissimus, a person who is - magickally - beyond duality. option 2 is the self deification that is common to all other true forms of the left hand path. the black brother remains in the abyss retaining his power until he is ultimately dissolved.

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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17388304 - 12/13/12 09:00 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
Quote:

deCypher said:
Crowley himself denounces the left-hand path, as that constitutes separating the ego from the Universe and calcifying it into a permanent, independent Self. In contrast the right-hand path, as described and practiced by him, is designed to annihilate the ego in Samadhi.




that's actually a good point. crowley is in a bit of a gray area when it comes to distinguishing him between the left and right hand path. he could be considered both. the AA has options for the adeptus exemptus, a high grade of initiate to either:

1. annhiliate himself and become an embryonic "babe of the abyss"

or

2. remain in the abyss isolated from the universe and become a "black brother"

option 1 is the path to ipsissimus, a person who is - magickally - beyond duality. option 2 is the self deification that is common to all other true forms of the left hand path. the black brother remains in the abyss retaining his power until he is ultimately dissolved.



Merlin's beard!

That perfectly explains the philosophical differences between Slytherin and Gryfindor!

:strokebeard:


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Re: The Occult [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #17388332 - 12/13/12 09:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

What about Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw?


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Re: The Occult [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17388370 - 12/13/12 09:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

lol, i'm not even a magician, i'm just explaining crowley's system. i just read a really good book about left hand path stuff so it's fresh on my mind.

if i were to practice magick - and i have been considering starting up - i'd go with chaos magick. it's simpler and a lot more fun.


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Re: The Occult [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17388381 - 12/13/12 09:12 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I tend to think of Hufflepuff as being the pot growers and dope cooks. I think the founder, Helga Hufflepuff's claim to fame was her delicious baked goods, according to the card I got of her that came with a chocolate frog. I don't know much about Ravenclaw, except she had a tiara that was cursed with dark magic by Tom Riddle. I never got her card in a chocolate frog.


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Re: The Occult [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #17388395 - 12/13/12 09:15 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Rail_Gun said:
I tend to think of Hufflepuff as being the pot growers and dope cooks. I think the founder, Helga Hufflepuff's claim to fame was her delicious baked goods, according to the card I got of her that came with a chocolate frog. I don't know much about Ravenclaw, except she had a tiara that was cursed with dark magic by Tom Riddle. I never got her card in a chocolate frog.



:thatsinteresting:


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Re: The Occult [Re: Gilgamesh18]
    #17388448 - 12/13/12 09:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17389619 - 12/14/12 02:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
i think i clearly admitted it my post above that i wouldn't LOOK at it. i don't need confirmation to know that it's a silly premise built on nothing but ignorance and misinformation.






OMG, but how can you know unless you look? Your in denial

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17391091 - 12/14/12 11:02 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

so let me ask you, do you think that the earth is hollow?


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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17392156 - 12/14/12 02:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
so let me ask you, do you think that the earth is hollow?




I don't know

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17392210 - 12/14/12 03:04 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

well, at least you're consistent.


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Re: The Occult [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #17392911 - 12/14/12 05:11 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Alchemy is form of knowing that combines science and spirituality into a useful to for the the navigation of this existance. Just because certain thing in alchemy have been proven wrong and even dangerouse does not mean the system of gaining knowledge is completely false. if you come to this conclusion for alchemy then you must come to the same conclusions about science.
The people with the most accurate outlook on reality are those that balance thinking and feeling instead of sticking to one of the two extremes. This is exactly what alchemy does. It is alive and well today, and in my opinion is the mot advanced way to navigate this universe. Time and time again amazing achievements of civilizations have supported this statement.


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Re: The Occult [Re: Cactilove]
    #17392929 - 12/14/12 05:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

arab alchemists perfected the distillation of alcohol; al kohl refers to a material's base essence.



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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17393368 - 12/14/12 06:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Yup where we got the word spirit!


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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17395312 - 12/15/12 02:12 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
well, at least you're consistent.




ahhh so the question was to try and make you look clever?
A bit snide. I am more open with people.
And ironic, because it still stands that you judge and criticize information you admit you don't even know about.

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17396037 - 12/15/12 09:52 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

the question was intended to make you look foolish. and it was successful.


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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17397375 - 12/15/12 03:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

was it good for your sense of will?

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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17397444 - 12/15/12 03:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

not sure. i haven't bothered to go looking for it yet. i'm too busy orchestrating terrorist attacks 100 years into the future via hand signals and fast food chain logos.


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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17397475 - 12/15/12 03:53 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Dude I knew a guy who said his goal in life was to become a "singularity"


Singularity!!!

Talked to co-worker:
"a black hole?"
"he's going to destroy the planet, we've got to stop this guy"


SOB is out there somewhere now, trying to destroy our solar system.

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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17397518 - 12/15/12 04:02 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Repertoire89 said:
Dude I knew a guy who said his goal in life was to become a "singularity"


Singularity!!!

Talked to co-worker:
"a black hole?"
"he's going to destroy the planet, we've got to stop this guy"


SOB is out there somewhere now, trying to destroy our solar system.





That's pretty funny!

I'm familiar with Kurzweil's Singularity (I thought that's what you linked to before I clicked through - here's his - think you may be into it from some of your posts if you haven't already heard of him)

Singularity could be taken as the quality of being an extraordinary instance, maybe your coworker is searching out his own will :peace: :yoda:


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Re: The Occult [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #17397548 - 12/15/12 04:11 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

penelope_tree said:





The precursors of the conversation make it obvious that he was talking about a form of enlightenment, I think it had something to do with cybernetics as well. He was talking about living forever with the use of machines.

Taken out of context though it was a pretty funny moment since the word has dual meanings, he's a pretty cool guy


The AI thing is interesting, I agree that people think in patterns and it's possible to replicate human intelligence with machines more advanced than our current technological state. On the other hand I also believe the most intelligent of our species have transcended thinking in patterns, to the point of thinking in patterns but consciously moving the patterns or discriminating without emotional bias.
Standing back from the music, constructing a frame, phrasing within the frame. In contrast to the way most people think, their frame constructed by the social consciousness (which is their frame, or ego) - they play phrases to that tune.
I'm skeptical that AI could transcend the social consciousness - thinking in patterns without being able to stop time and change directions / opinions at will (admitting that one is wrong).
Have been thinking about this recently, hope its not long winded  :peace:

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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17397624 - 12/15/12 04:32 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Ambiguous jokes are usually my favorite kind :thumbup:

Kurzweil does believe that we will create intelligent/conscious machines that are able to upgrade themselves, and that is what he deems the singularity - when those conscious machines are able to continually improve themselves, assumably quicker than humans could keep pace. There are lots of implications about ethics bundled in there.

I subscribed to his blog and get a newsletter every Friday about the newest advancements that arena. There's some pretty crazy stuff coming to fruition. I can't believe things like this are happening in my lifetime -
Quote:

Researchers Orr Yarkoni, Lynn Donlon, and Daniel Frankel, from the Department of Chemical Engineering at Newcastle University...developed an interface to allow communication between the biological and electronic components [of an autonomous, multi-cellular biohybrid robot]...



Source


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Re: The Occult [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #17397676 - 12/15/12 04:47 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Well thats definitely possible, a machine could definitely improve itself through programming patterns. I think also the creation of consciousness, actual A.I. would be possible through technology as you were describing, with cellls used during the processing.

Extreme example: taking the brain from a fetus and putting it into a mechanical body. But that wouldn't really be creating consciousness...
Cloning maybe, or creating an organism from scratch using raw genetic material.

Technology is dangerous, who knows the kind of torture devices which will be made? People kept alive for hundreds of years while being tortured, a brain hooked up to machines feeding it pain signals - a virtual machine which interacts with the nervous system and puts people in horrible situations or back in their ordinary life which is systematically ruined to break their spirit (actual interaction with landscape to make them lose their sanity - example the world becoming a fractal or being in a city under siege).
These things are my only concern when it comes to technology, how it will be misused. Other than that I think the ideas of AI, cloning, and nono-technology are awesome

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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17397858 - 12/15/12 05:21 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

The ethics of it are super scary when you think about the potential for abuse. For example, if self-replicating nano-bots were being used in number in an uncontrolled environment, then two immediate scenarios need to be controlled for: 1) malicious hackers & 2) renegade nano-bots. If either one were to happen, they could quickly create a swarm that could cover land masses equal to entire states in hours. (There is an episode of Futurama, where Bender becomes self-replicating, and turns all the water into wine. Everyone on earth is about to die from dehydration, drunk. :bender:)

Then again, the potential for longevity and greater quality of life are also present.

I think it would be much more difficult to create consciousness from a machine than to integrate our own consciousness with one.

The "thinking in patterns" thing, that's awesome. I think it could help a lot of people understand themselves and the world around them. Apparently, it's a really hot topic right now in business - compiling large data sets and comparing the patterns. There has been a comparable pattern found between how systems such as the internet, the human brain, & the universe are structured and grow. - Source Of course, a possible conclusion that one could reach is that, since we can't see from any perspective but the human, it all may be like looking into a mirror.

Glad the topic veered this way.. I consider technology a form of magic.


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Occult [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #17398033 - 12/15/12 06:07 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

"If science contradicts your beliefs I highly recommend reconsidering your beliefs."

Science is nothing more than exploring and utilizing the physical properties of our universe, it's a wonderful thing. My own beliefs have never been contradicted by the findings of science, and aside from the risks I look at the inevitable technological boom in nano-technology in a positive light. Technology can put us in space expanding our civilization forever, solve our resource problems, and our health problems. People could be living hundreds of years eventually, through cybernetics.

Most of civilization though will never conceive of anything, all this comes from intellectual pioneers. We equally lack wisdom. In the future there will be massive wars in space, horrors on an intergalactic scale, starvation, and corruption.

Very strange  :joint:

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Offlinezzripz
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Re: The Occult [Re: millzy]
    #17399931 - 12/16/12 04:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
not sure. i haven't bothered to go looking for it yet. i'm too busy orchestrating terrorist attacks 100 years into the future via hand signals and fast food chain logos.




you mock with blindfolds on kiddo

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InvisiblePenelope_Tree
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Re: The Occult [Re: Repertoire89]
    #17403387 - 12/16/12 06:50 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

:brownie:

Kurzweil gives reason for optimism, as far as starvation goes - GMO's, the sheer abundance of wealth and how we are figuring out how to share it. Other statistics (such as, "the birth rate in first world countries is something like 1.5," suggesting that as quality of life improves, the population waxes for reasons such as education & birth control) also support this.

As far as the intellectual pioneers go, great advancements have come about when people have time for leisure. I'd bet that how sports started.

Are there still going to be people who want to be malicious? Maybe. If there is a biological reason for evil that we can understand and figure out, perhaps we can avert unfortunate situations (as far as human vs human goes). I for one have always hoped that humanity can understand our commonalities and break through the glass ceiling.

If I'm wrong, I hope I'm around to be proven so.


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Re: The Occult [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #17403641 - 12/16/12 07:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I, for one, welcome our new robotic overlords.  Can't wait till someone actually develops a working seed AI.


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Re: The Occult [Re: zzripz]
    #17403836 - 12/16/12 07:52 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

zzripz said:
kiddo




:thisfuckinguy:


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InvisibleRepertoire89
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Re: The Occult [Re: Penelope_Tree]
    #17404063 - 12/16/12 08:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

penelope_tree said:
:brownie:

Kurzweil gives reason for optimism, as far as starvation goes - GMO's, the sheer abundance of wealth and how we are figuring out how to share it. Other statistics (such as, "the birth rate in first world countries is something like 1.5," suggesting that as quality of life improves, the population waxes for reasons such as education & birth control) also support this.

As far as the intellectual pioneers go, great advancements have come about when people have time for leisure. I'd bet that how sports started.

Are there still going to be people who want to be malicious? Maybe. If there is a biological reason for evil that we can understand and figure out, perhaps we can avert unfortunate situations (as far as human vs human goes). I for one have always hoped that humanity can understand our commonalities and break through the glass ceiling.

If I'm wrong, I hope I'm around to be proven so.




Honestly don't believe in the social consciousness advancing past this point, technologically but not as individuals. Just see the same drama unfolding into the future with new sceneries

Have spent years working on myself with dedicated effort, not happy with the results, plenty of rewards but they're showered on a corrupt mind. Observation tells me this world is populated by people who are by and large further down the spiral of corruption than myself, and very few want to change for the better let alone with any serious effort. Those at the helm are also amongst the most ignorant + corrupt

The only change I believe in is personal change made over life-times

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