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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix
    #17354560 - 12/08/12 10:20 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I'm doing an agar grow, and I was wondering, would it make my Ps. Cubensis any more potent if I mixed in 5 grams of DMT and 5 grams of ho-dmt into my agar?

In theory, won't the mycelium consume it and have an easier time producing Psilocin?

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17354578 - 12/08/12 10:24 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Nope, the bottleneck is not the DMT. Adding DMT will do nothing except lose you some DMT, and possibly contaminate your agar.

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OfflineShroomzWeedLsd
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: nooneman]
    #17354630 - 12/08/12 10:36 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

No, but there was a thing on here I saw that said adding 500mg of tryptophan to a substrate would make them more potent but I'll find the link latter I'm busy now


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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: ShroomzWeedLsd]
    #17354650 - 12/08/12 10:42 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

ShroomzWeedLsd said:
No, but there was a thing on here I saw that said adding 500mg of tryptophan to a substrate would make them more potent but I'll find the link latter I'm busy now




tryptophan is not otc here. would 5-htp work?

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17354660 - 12/08/12 10:45 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Tryptophan and other additivies don't work either. The bottleneck is the final step, the conversion to psilocin happens at a constant rate that is fairly slow. Mushrooms already have WAY more precursors than they can possibly convert. That's why some are more potent than others becuse some can convert to psilocin at a faster rate than others.

It has nothing to do with the number of precursors and everything to do with genetics.

Edited by nooneman (12/08/12 10:45 AM)

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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: nooneman]
    #17354990 - 12/08/12 11:54 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you for the information.

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17357078 - 12/08/12 07:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I think more experimentation is needed. Use some more exotic chemicals.

From wikipedia

Their paper cites a 10 step synthesis of 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT from ortho-vanillin. However, Alexander Shulgin has explained that it could be possible to cultivate 4-HO-5-MeO-DMT in psilocybin mushrooms by adding 5-MeO-DMT to the growing substrate of the fungus. Though this method has never been explored with 5-MeO-DMT, it has been used successfully for changing DET into 4-HO-DET and 4-PO-DET, both of which had never before been found in nature.[2]

The actual comment from shulgin is on erowid somewhere, I imagine some crazy shit could be done in the proper situation

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17357418 - 12/08/12 08:20 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
I'm doing an agar grow, and I was wondering, would it make my Ps. Cubensis any more potent if I mixed in 5 grams of DMT and 5 grams of ho-dmt into my agar?

In theory, won't the mycelium consume it and have an easier time producing Psilocin?




:facepalm:

this isn't an advanced mycology forum topic... Save your DMT and agar for better use (separately).

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17359013 - 12/09/12 02:28 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
I'm doing an agar grow, and I was wondering, would it make my Ps. Cubensis any more potent if I mixed in 5 grams of DMT and 5 grams of ho-dmt into my agar?

In theory, won't the mycelium consume it and have an easier time producing Psilocin?





Yes, but only if its deficient in exactly what you give it, which essentially means no.

This kinda thing doesn't work in practice generally due to the way the organism's metabolism works.  There's generally several different reactions going on with every intermediate, and the system is regulated so that a simple addition of reactant doesn't lead to sustained increase in product.

The actual psilocybin is likely also being metabolized into other things and broken down, and even if you can appreciably increase the rate of psilocybin production, that doesn't mean it will translate into an increase in its concentration.


Its kinda like pouring a lot more water into a series of waterfalls- the rate of water falling may increase, but that doesn't mean the actual volume of water behind each waterfall increases by any appreciable amount.  Now imagine each waterfall has three different paths and you'll start to get the picture.

When I looked into this with mescaline-producing cacti it seemed pretty evident that adding precursors didn't help at all and may actually hurt in some situations by creating some negative feedback on the pathway that produced the mescaline.

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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: johnm214]
    #17380542 - 12/12/12 03:10 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
I'm doing an agar grow, and I was wondering, would it make my Ps. Cubensis any more potent if I mixed in 5 grams of DMT and 5 grams of ho-dmt into my agar?

In theory, won't the mycelium consume it and have an easier time producing Psilocin?





Yes, but only if its deficient in exactly what you give it, which essentially means no.

This kinda thing doesn't work in practice generally due to the way the organism's metabolism works.  There's generally several different reactions going on with every intermediate, and the system is regulated so that a simple addition of reactant doesn't lead to sustained increase in product.

The actual psilocybin is likely also being metabolized into other things and broken down, and even if you can appreciably increase the rate of psilocybin production, that doesn't mean it will translate into an increase in its concentration.


Its kinda like pouring a lot more water into a series of waterfalls- the rate of water falling may increase, but that doesn't mean the actual volume of water behind each waterfall increases by any appreciable amount.  Now imagine each waterfall has three different paths and you'll start to get the picture.

When I looked into this with mescaline-producing cacti it seemed pretty evident that adding precursors didn't help at all and may actually hurt in some situations by creating some negative feedback on the pathway that produced the mescaline.




So then, how do you increase the potency then?

What if i added an insane amount of 4-ho-dmt to it?
Like, a pound or so into the substrate?

I guess it couldn't really hurt to try, I'll do this and keep people posted. SOMETHING has to happen.

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Offlineindahighcountry
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17385029 - 12/13/12 10:44 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

if you have the resources to throw at it, give it a shot and report back

my gut says it won't make any significant difference -- again being that myc metabolizes vs absorbs nutrients but could make for an interesting experiment

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OfflineBothHands
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17385059 - 12/13/12 10:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
What if i added an insane amount of 4-ho-dmt to it?
Like, a pound or so into the substrate?

I guess it couldn't really hurt to try, I'll do this and keep people posted.





A pound of 4-HO-DMT?  Really?  It couldn't hurt to try?  That's about 75,000 grams of mushrooms.  Even at the best prices, that's well over 100,000$  How can that not hurt to try?  For one batch of above average potency mushrooms?  Have you lost your fucking mind?

Why don't you just lay the extra 4-HO-DMT onto the mushroom with acetone or something?


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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: BothHands]
    #17385125 - 12/13/12 11:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BothHands said:
Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
What if i added an insane amount of 4-ho-dmt to it?
Like, a pound or so into the substrate?

I guess it couldn't really hurt to try, I'll do this and keep people posted.





A pound of 4-HO-DMT?  Really?  It couldn't hurt to try?  That's about 75,000 grams of mushrooms.  Even at the best prices, that's well over 100,000$  How can that not hurt to try?  For one batch of above average potency mushrooms?  Have you lost your fucking mind?

Why don't you just lay the extra 4-HO-DMT onto the mushroom with acetone or something?




I don't see how acetone would do anything useful...

Is there a procedure for this?

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: BothHands]
    #17385128 - 12/13/12 11:06 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Even more importantly: 4-ho-dmt is psilocin. If you have psilocin, why not just eat it instead of trying to grow more psilocin? :confused:

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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: nooneman]
    #17385141 - 12/13/12 11:10 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Even more importantly: 4-ho-dmt is psilocin. If you have psilocin, why not just eat it instead of trying to grow more psilocin? :confused:




Because I want to grow more, not eat it. I couldn't possibly ever go through all this stuff in my lifetime, so why not try to do something useful with it? If I get a strain of super potent muchrooms, I could give them away for the benefit of humanity.

Edited by TheUnknownPoet (12/13/12 11:10 AM)

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17385147 - 12/13/12 11:11 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Why would you want to grow more when you already have a lifetime supply?

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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: nooneman]
    #17385154 - 12/13/12 11:13 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Why would you want to grow more when you already have a lifetime supply?




So that I can give it away to people?
Why else does anyone grow shrooms here anyways?

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet] * 1
    #17385155 - 12/13/12 11:13 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Couldn't you just give away the psilocin?

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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: nooneman]
    #17385165 - 12/13/12 11:16 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Couldn't you just give away the psilocin?




No, because then i'd run out and not have any more. However, I gan grow mooshies all day.

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OfflineBothHands
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17385209 - 12/13/12 11:28 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
Quote:

BothHands said:
Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
What if i added an insane amount of 4-ho-dmt to it?
Like, a pound or so into the substrate?

I guess it couldn't really hurt to try, I'll do this and keep people posted.





A pound of 4-HO-DMT?  Really?  It couldn't hurt to try?  That's about 75,000 grams of mushrooms.  Even at the best prices, that's well over 100,000$  How can that not hurt to try?  For one batch of above average potency mushrooms?  Have you lost your fucking mind?

Why don't you just lay the extra 4-HO-DMT onto the mushroom with acetone or something?




I don't see how acetone would do anything useful...

Is there a procedure for this?




Acetone is a very fast drying solvent.  You can dissolve the psilocin into the acetone, and then spray it on the mushrooms, then dry it.  You can do this several times if you want to continue to increase the potency.  You're just putting psilocin onto the mushrooms is all.  Would be preferable to do this after the mushrooms have been picked and dried.


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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17386727 - 12/13/12 04:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
Even more importantly: 4-ho-dmt is psilocin. If you have psilocin, why not just eat it instead of trying to grow more psilocin? :confused:




Because I want to grow more, not eat it. I couldn't possibly ever go through all this stuff in my lifetime, so why not try to do something useful with it? If I get a strain of super potent muchrooms, I could give them away for the benefit of humanity.




I think you're confused about how genetic engineering works.

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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: thiotimoline]
    #17391567 - 12/14/12 12:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

thiotimoline said:
Quote:

TheUnknownPoet said:
Quote:

nooneman said:
Even more importantly: 4-ho-dmt is psilocin. If you have psilocin, why not just eat it instead of trying to grow more psilocin? :confused:




Because I want to grow more, not eat it. I couldn't possibly ever go through all this stuff in my lifetime, so why not try to do something useful with it? If I get a strain of super potent muchrooms, I could give them away for the benefit of humanity.




I think you're confused about how genetic engineering works.




Yes, yes I am, my good sir. I don't know what else this thread made evident if it was not for that fact.

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet] * 2
    #17393115 - 12/14/12 05:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I think your trolling, the whole premise of the thread makes no sense. And I would also like to know how you came to possess a pound of pure psilocin....


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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: BjJiggles]
    #17394519 - 12/14/12 10:14 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BjJiggles said:
I think your trolling, the whole premise of the thread makes no sense. And I would also like to know how you came to possess a pound of pure psilocin....




:trollhide:

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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: BjJiggles]
    #17394865 - 12/14/12 11:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BjJiggles said:
I think your trolling, the whole premise of the thread makes no sense. And I would also like to know how you came to possess a pound of pure psilocin....




Sorry, I'm not a genetic engineer.
And I don't have 1 pound of pure psilocin, it's a mix of both psilocin and psylocibin, extracted from mooshies.

I just wanted to know if i add some to the agar or substrate wether it will make it stronger. But apparently not.

Also, my personal drug stash is none of anyone business, and I certainly dont need to prove to you i'm not trolling. (Because on the chanse i'm not, It's like... eveidence that can be used against me)

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17395041 - 12/15/12 12:30 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Lol, ok, well take your pound of psilocin/psilocybin extract and put it all in your Petri dishes n your substrate and see what happens..:shrug:


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OfflineTheUnknownPoet
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: BjJiggles]
    #17396896 - 12/15/12 01:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

BjJiggles said:
Lol, ok, well take your pound of psilocin/psilocybin extract and put it all in your Petri dishes n your substrate and see what happens..:shrug:




Alright, I'll do that and keep you guys posted.

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17397368 - 12/15/12 03:31 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Lol that would be way too expensive agar :laugh: i don't know why you wanna increase its potency with dmt. Dmt and psylocin is very similar but it does not mean the mushrooms gonna eat it. Eat 2g of mushroom and load a pipe with your spice and you won't be dissappointed

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: eLeSDenes]
    #17400425 - 12/16/12 08:29 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Instead of using dmt on your cubes, perhaps you should use the correct balance of nutrients from agar to casing? Maybe do a really solid job growing a different psilocybe altogether?

I don't know anything about this topic... but it doesn't make sense to me... I feel like the best way to get the "most potent" genetics is by doing a very good job cloning, isolating, and providing your specimens with the correct nutrient bases from start to finish... :shrug:

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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: Mykes logos]
    #17465346 - 12/29/12 09:24 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Perhaps someone could shed some light on this Gartz et al. paper from 1988.  They found over double the amount of psilocin present in p. cubensis mushrooms with tryptamine-supplemented substrates (supplemented at a rate of 25mM).

Quote:


BIOTRANSFORMATION OF TRYPTAMINE IN FRUITING MYCELIA OF PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS.

Jochen Gartz
Institute of Biotechnology, Academy of Sciences of the GDR,
Permoserstrasse 15, GDR-7050 Leipzig, German Democratic Republic

Received: March 13, 1988

ABSTRACT

Mycelial cultures of Psilocybe cubensis, with the ability to form psilocybin and psilocin de-novo, also hydroxylated and methylated fed tryptamine to give psilocin in up to 3.3% dry mass of the obtained fruit bodies. By using HPLC and TLC, it was found that these mushrooms contain only a small amount of psilocybin (0.01-0.2% dry mass). The values of psilocin are the highest described in any mushrooms.

INTRODUCTION

Psilocybe cubensis (Earle) Sing, is a subs-tropical mushroom and contains the indole alkaloid psilocybin and only small amounts of its dephosphorylated counterpart psilocin (1-4). Variations in these metabolites have been well demonstrated by investigations of fruit bodies cultivated under controlled conditions of a rye-grain medium (2) and rice substratum (3), respectively.

The study of psilocybin biosynthesis in submerged culture of P. cubensis showed that radioactive tryptamine functioned as a better precursor than tryptophan (5-7). It was found that not less than 22.4% of the psilocybin formed was derived from the labeled precursor tryptamine (5). The level of psilocin was generally zero in the mycelial tissue from these experiments (5-7).

In the present paper, the bio-transformation of fed tryptamine in fruiting mycelia of Psilocybe cubensis is described.

MATERIALS and METHODS
Cultivation of Psilocybe cubensis

A dried cow dung/rice-grain mixture (2:1) with twice the amount of water was used to obtain fast fructifications without casing of a strain (3) of Psilocybe cubensis . A 25 mM concentration of tryptamine (as hydrochloride) was added to this medium. Cultivations without the addition of tryptamine were also tested. The methods of cultivations were described in (3).

The first sporocarps were produced by cultures of Psilocybe cubensis in 3 to 4 weeks. The cultures continued to produce mushrooms in five flushes. Each flush was harvested as soon as the sporocarps were mature. The mushrooms were immediately freeze-dried, sealed in plastic, and stored at -10 degrees C until analysis.

EXTRACTION and ANALYSIS The extraction procedure and the analysis of the indole alkaloids by using HPLC and TLC were described in the previous papers (3,8-10). The presence or absence of tryptamine was demonstrated by TLC as described by Stijve et al. (11).

RESULTS and DISCUSSION

The cow dung-rice mixture actually produced the first flush of mushrooms earlier than the cultivations on ry (with casing) (2) and rice (3), respectively. They yielded an average of 3 g dry mass per 10 g substratum.

Under the same culture conditions, the fructification times, the yields, and sizes of the mushrooms as well as the bluing feature (3) were equal when the growth media also contained high concentrations of tryptamine. Initial experiments without the addition of tryptamine were performed to determine the content of psilocybin and psilocin in comparison with experiments using other culture conditions and/or media (2,3).

The levels of psilocybin and psilocin varied from one flush to the next, but generally were much the same as those in the other experiments (2,3) (table 1). Consistently low levels of psilocin were found in the mushrooms without the addition of tryptamine to the substratum. Additionally, psilocin generally was absent in the first flush as was also observed in earlier investigations (2,3). Table 1 shows that the fed tryptamine gives high values of psilocin in each flush from the cultures.

Table 1 Variation of psilocybin and psilocin levels in Psilocybe cubensis as a function of flush number from the cultivations with (a) and without (b) addition of tryptamine (25 mM concentration).

Flush no.    Psilocin    Psilocin    Psilocybin    Psilocybin
                a            b          a              b
1.            2.1          -          0.01          0.55
2.            3.3          0.01        0.02          0.48
3.            2.8          0.02        0.20          0.51
4.            3.1          0.09        0.07          0.46
5.            2.9          0.15        0.13          0.61

These psilocin levels are uncommonly high (from 2.1 to 3.3%) since values reported for psilocin in dried mushrooms are always below 1% (1-4,12,13).

Inocybe Aeruginasens Babos contains only traces of psilocin but high amounts of the incompletely methylated psilocybin (baeocystin) (9). In contrast to the intitial experiments without an addition of tryptamine, the mushrooms generally contained only small amounts of psilocybin. The tryptamine level was always zero in each mushroom. In this case no tryptamine was additionally found in the methanolic extract of the vegetative mycelia from the substratum.

In a previous report, Gartz (3) was unable to detect baeocystin in P. cubensis. But Repke et al. (14) reported traces of baeocystin in other strains of Psilocybe cubensis about 10 years ago. They suggested that many non-specific enzyme systems exist in fungi which have the ability to oxidise exogenously added compounds, as well as normal, obligatory intermediates (14).

The results in Table 1 show that the enzyme systems in Psilocybe cubensis have a high hydroxylation and methalation capacity to convert added Tryptamine to psilocin. It is possible that a reduced amount of phosphate in the culture media decreased the bio-synthesis of psilocybin from psilocin in the media.

P.cubensis also failed to produce detectable amounts of baeocystin under these culture conditions.

Acknowledgments

The author thanks the following persons: G. Drewitz, T. Stijve, G.K.Muller, and M. Gey who generously supplied valuable information.

REFERENCES

  1. Heim, R., Hoffman, A. (1958) Compt. Rend. 247,557.
  2. Bigwood, J.. Beug, M.W. (1982) J. Ethnopharm. 5, 287.
  3. Gartz, J. (1987) Beitrage zur Kenntnis der Pilze Mitteleuropas 3, 275.
  4. Badham, E. (1984) J. Ethnopharm. 10, 249
  5. Agurell, S., Blomkvist, S., Catalfomo, P. (1966) Acta Pharm. Suecica 3, 37.
  6. Agurell, S., Nilsson, J.L.G. (1968) Acta Chem. Scand. 22, 1210.
  7. Agurell, S., Nilsson, J.L.G. (1968) Tetrahedron Lett. 1063.
  8. Gartz, J. (1985) Pharmazie 40, 134.
  9. Gartz, J. (1987) Planta Med. 53, 539.
  10. Semerdzieva, M., Wurst, M., Koza, T., Gartz, J. (1986) Planta  Med. 52, 83.
  11. Stijve, T., Hischenhuber, C., Ashley, D. (1984) Z. Mykol. 50, 361.
  12. Beug, M.W., Bigwood, J. (1982) J. Ethnopharm. 5, 271.
  13. Ohenoja, E., Jokiranata, J., Makinen, T., Kaikkonen, A., Airaksinen, M.M. (1987) J. Nat. Prod. 50, 741
  14. Repke, D.B., Leslie, D.T., Guzman, G. (1977) Lloydia 40, 566.


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"There are no differences, but differences of degree between different degrees of difference and no difference."
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OfflineHumbled
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: BigPharma]
    #17466629 - 12/29/12 02:53 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

That is interesting. Psilocin is an unstable alkaloid though.

I think this would be useful for someone that wanted potent fresh mushrooms but not so good if you were planning on drying them.


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OfflineBigPharma
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: Humbled]
    #17467325 - 12/29/12 05:33 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

to increase the stability of psilocin one could conduct an extraction and recrystalize with ascorbic acid to act as a preservative.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Adding X-X, DMT to Agar mix [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17469914 - 12/29/12 05:33 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
Different day, same bullshit.

Not only is this not a mycology subject, if someone posts that 'study' from Gartz again I'm going to puke.  We've always known there's up to a ten-fold difference in alkaloid content between fruits from a single flush, so to find double the psilocin in some mushrooms from a different tray is well within normal parameters and doesn't indicate the chemicals did anything.

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