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Offlineteonacatl
Shaman

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 26
Loc: USA
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
The Spirit of the Shroom?
    #1733901 - 07/21/03 03:00 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Does anybody else believe in the idea that the shroom and the effect of the shroom seems to have some kind of conciousness? I have always had the idea that seems to be prevalent in South America that a spirit or egregore of some sort is present within the sacrament of shrooms as well as ayahuasca. The trips one has from time to time will often teach someone just what they need to know at that time and will often at least forshadow the future...also on higher doses of shrooms, I have noticed that often there will be an "imaginary" entity wich will visit me and teach me things.
Has anyone else had this belief/experience? I would like to know if anyone has any understanding of this and has explored it further than I....I feel the shroom ("teonacatl" is a mexican indian word meaning "flesh of the gods" and is their term for "shrooms") needs to be given due respect in order for one to learn from it, or even to have a good "trip".


--------------------
All information contained above is completely fictional, a product of the authors imagination.
Do what thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Registered: 01/23/00
Posts: 1,718
Loc: Europe
Last seen: 1 month, 9 days
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: teonacatl]
    #1734053 - 07/21/03 04:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes, I have had hallucinations of a kind of mushroom-person presence on some trips. I think of it as an anthropomorphization of my thoughts about my relation to the mushrooms.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: teonacatl]
    #1734100 - 07/21/03 05:11 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Does anybody else believe in the idea that the shroom... seems to have some kind of conciousness? a spirit ... of some sort is present within the sacrament of shrooms as well as ayahuasca
Many do, but it does not make sense. Chemically-made psilocybin and DMT have nearly identical effects as plant-born hallucinogens. This speaks to the effects as that of a drug on the human brain and NOT a synergistic affect of two entities interacting.

needs to be given due respect
Whatever that means. One needs to understand what one is getting into and acknowledge the possible dangers of tripping, but the fungus itself requires no personal homage.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: teonacatl]
    #1734320 - 07/21/03 08:54 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yes I have experienced the same thing.
I have seen the mushroom entity and it spoke to me, I feel its presence every time I trip now, but it does not show it self every time in a visual form.
And you are right the sacrament needs to be respected and loved.
The entity told me that it does not shows it self to people who takes them self to serious (people who thinks to much of them selves).
I also learned that you usually have a bad trip when you can't let go of the "Mask".
I don?t think is Imaginary, but I know is hard to believe things like this exist. :wink:
 


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: LOBO]
    #1734357 - 07/21/03 09:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I don?t think is Imaginary, but I know is hard to believe things like this exist.

It is not even a matter of being hard to believe. It is a matter of being consistent with the model presented. When you speak of "the entity", where does it reside? There should be a difference between eating a living plant or a pure chemical, if the entity resides in the mushroom rather than in the human psyche. Does this not make sense?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineSteevil
is cool

Registered: 01/21/03
Posts: 78
Loc: UK
Last seen: 12 years, 13 days
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Swami]
    #1734380 - 07/21/03 10:04 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Even assuming that an entity or spirit resides in the psyche, does that mean it's existence is not worth considering and learning about? Surely this would be useful in studying the mind.

I think it's the Psychedelic Experience (Leary et al) that says "when Westerners hear the word 'psychological' they hear 'only psychological'" (I'm paraphrasing here). IMHO, the fact that it is in the mind doesn't change how interesting and wonderful this sort of thing is, if that's not too hippyish a thing to say. It also doesn't necessarily mean that it's a product of the mind.

Sorry Swami, everything I've posted recently seems to be in argument with you. It's nothing personal. :smile: Keep coming up with the questions.
 


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All the days of his vow of separation no razor shall pass over his head. He shall be holy ... he shall let the locks of hair on his head grow long.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Steevil]
    #1734408 - 07/21/03 10:34 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Even assuming that an entity or spirit resides in the psyche, does that mean it's existence is not worth considering and learning about?

No of course not, but it IS important to differentiate. People speak of meeting Mescalito in a vision as if they were actually encountering the spirit residing in the cactus (or mushroom as the case may be). My observation merely negates this assumption and tells us we must probably look elsewhere.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Registered: 01/23/00
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Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: LOBO]
    #1734437 - 07/21/03 11:11 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think is Imaginary,




What does it take to be categorized as imaginary?

For example, I know my sex drive is very real, and I don't think I am only imagining that I have a sex drive. Yet I am fairly convinced that it exists only in my head. I don't think it's roaming around in hyperspace at night hunting for beings of flesh and blood that it can possess.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1734449 - 07/21/03 11:17 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think it's roaming around in hyperspace at night hunting for beings of flesh and blood that it can possess.

Stop it! You're s-s-s-s-caring me me. Please God, don't let the evil sex drive possess me tonight . Amen.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Swami]
    #1734479 - 07/21/03 11:32 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

It is not even a matter of being hard to believe. It is a matter of being consistent with the model presented. When you speak of "the entity", where does it reside? 



You have to many models and ways things should be presented or not presented. I did not know you were the law here, in deciding what is right and what is wrong.
I don?t know were does it reside, I just know it talks to me and I have seen it.
Does it make sense, in a normal mind frame? No but what does under the magic of the Mushroom.
Do I believe is real? Yes that is just my belief, do I care to demonstrate it or convince others ? No
I just responded to another crazy brother like me that sees and talks to fungus, that?s all.
Quote:

There should be a difference between eating a living plant or a pure chemical, if the entity resides in the mushroom rather than in the human psyche. Does this not make sense?
 


Should they be a difference? I don't know, but I guess you are an expert on the matter of how things should be and not be.
You made the assumption that resides in the fungus it self, I call it the spirit of the mushroom because we see it when we eat the fungus and also it presented to me at least as the spirit of it.
You are trying to make sense of things, in a world that nothing makes sense.
But if it makes you feel better and sleep tight at night, you can label me as wrong, ignorant and crazy.
Happy dreams.
:eyemouth: 


--------------------


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: LOBO]
    #1734503 - 07/21/03 11:51 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You have to many models and ways things should be presented or not presented. I did not know you were the law here, in deciding what is right and what is wrong.
Well now ya know. *pins on badge* There is a new sheriff in Dodge.

I don?t know were does it reside,
Miami Beach?

Should they be a difference? I don't know, but I guess you are an expert on the matter of how things should be and not be.
True, but that is besides the point.

You made the assumption that resides in the fungus it self
What a wild "assumption" I made there to think the the spirit of the shroom was a spirit that resides in the mushroom.  :rolleyes:

I call it the spirit of the mushroom because we see it when we eat the fungus and also it presented to me at least as the spirit of it.
What is the "it" doing the presenting if it is a purely synthetic chemical?

You are trying to make sense of things, in a world that nothing makes sense.
Well pardon me Roy, whatever was I thinking?  :nut:

 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: LOBO]
    #1734513 - 07/21/03 11:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

the reality of tripping converstions with entities isn't disproved by the plat/chemical example - I've yet to seen anyone claim that the spirit resides in the non active ingredients of the shrooms.

the thought is that the chemical unlocks something in our brains that make communication with beings who are always around us possible - one such spirit being the mushroom.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1734518 - 07/21/03 11:58 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I was just making a reference that maybe is not just a product of our own imagination but perhaps a real phenomena, outside of our own fabrications.
It is just my belief based on my own experiences, I am not sure what are facts any more, I only know there is something mysterious and fascinating about these experiences, I try not to label them to much.
In the beginning I compulsively tried to use my analytical everyday mind to make sense of that world, I don?t any more, I just take it as an experience, but that?s just me.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Malachi]
    #1734543 - 07/21/03 12:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

the reality of tripping converstions with entities isn't disproved by the plat/chemical example
(Here we go with the argument shifting.)  :shake:

the thought is that the chemical unlocks something in our brains that make communication with beings who are always around us possible - one such spirit being the mushroom.
Uh huh. You talk about me playing word games? People believed that by ingesting the fruit body that the mushroom spirit (which caused the fungus to live and grow) is contacted. When that premise is logically disproven then you change the meaning.

So now the mushroom spirit NEVER resided in the mushroom at all, but coincidentally just happens to look a physical mushroom; is that it? Help me out here.

Or is this just a misnomer for the gnostic voice one might hear and really has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the mushroom's life force other than the fact that it contains psilocybin?

 


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineLOBO
Vagabond

Registered: 03/19/01
Posts: 655
Loc: NY
Last seen: 10 years, 3 months
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Malachi]
    #1734549 - 07/21/03 12:16 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

To continue along your trend of thought, and this is just speculation from my part.
Chemicals in its basic form are crystals, in a radio you use crystals to receive a station, gives you the frequency and address of a particular station.
You can make an analogy that our brain is a receiver and transmitter and the mushrooms gives you the chemical (radio channel) where these entity?s reside.
Just one of many possible explanations.


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OfflineMalachi
stereotype

Registered: 06/19/02
Posts: 1,294
Loc: Around Minneapolis.
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Swami]
    #1734575 - 07/21/03 12:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

oh, well if "people" said so... who am I to argue? I didn't read all the previous posts, but I did read a few, and that wasn't a strong impresson. regardless, it's not argument shifting as I just entered this argument. I'm just giving my take on it, my premise was never that spirits are located at some specific place in a physical vessel (perhaps the "people" you speak of made this claim.... but I can't see why, it's a silly and indefensible position. except for the rick strausman theory about the pineal gland... if there is a spot where your soul lives, it's gotta be there).

"coincidentally just happens to look a physical mushroom; is that it?"

uh, again, I don't know about "people", but my mushroom spirits don't look like mushrooms..... they look like squiggly lines of light. it's quite possible that they are in fact one and the same as the gnostic voice, but that wouldn't make it less important or real, it'd just mean that the mushroom spirit = manifestation of g-d.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,849
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 month, 24 days
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: LOBO]
    #1734606 - 07/21/03 12:43 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I don't think that the real mushroom/synthetic material thang is an issue. See, Insulin is real and it has the effects that it does, and since it is rare or hard to collect in nature, it is synthetically produced by genetically altered bacteria. It is still insulin, it still has the same effects.
I think that the synthetic psilocybin still produces the "conscious presence" (if it even does, has anyone studied this? has anyone here tried synthetic psilocybin? did they experience the same, previously mentioned effects), because it IS THE SAME SUBSTANCE. No matter where it comes from, it is still exactly the same, and it still has the same effects.
I assume it might be sort of like this: The chemical is sort of a password, of sorts, that opens that consciousness in our brain. "It opens the portal", "connects us", or so forth. If you have a key to your house, and go and have a duplicate made, does it still open the door? Of course (well, it depends on how exact the duplicate, depending on the quality of the machine).
If the consciousness is described as "mushroom-person", or whatnot, I think this can be explained as a product of our mind. This sort of consciousness, it only comes when we eat the mushrooms, and when it "comes out", a thought in our brain assumes it is because of the mushroom, and since we are tripping, that thought sort of creates the prescense as a mushroom person. I'm sure that if a scientist or a test subject, not in any way familiar with mushrooms or their effects, is given the synthetic psilocybin, and experience the "consciousness", the word "mushroom-person" would never come up when they describe it later.
Myself, when I'm tripping (I have never had enough experience, sadly, anytime I've tripped, I've had to solve personal problems, and clear out some negative mental programming, before I could ever set out into the mushroom land), I'd rather consider this consciousness a sort of mushroom god, and hold that sacred, anyways. Why deny myself that? I'm too creative, anyways, to take a cold, scientific mentality into a trip. I don't feel that is what it is about.
I hope this clears some things up.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1734696 - 07/21/03 01:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I'm sure that if a ... test subject, not in any way familiar with mushrooms or their effects, is given the synthetic psilocybin, and experience the "consciousness", the word "mushroom-person" would never come up when they describe it later.

Exactly my point.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
Sexy.Butt.McDanger
Male

Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: Swami]
    #1734721 - 07/21/03 01:25 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That's what I am saying, too, I guess.
... hhhhmm. Technically, it is all in our head. This whole universe is all in our head. The consciousness, I believe, is just a part of our brain that we don't normally access in our day-to-day life (unless we train ourselves to be able to, or we are raised with the ability to access it). Psilocybin is basically a way to access this, basically a key. We can remove the lock in our head, too, but to those who just use the temporary key, it is the key that is "performing the magic". Since they believe it is the key itself, of course it will appear that way when the consciousness "comes out".
I think I am starting to understand your way of thinking, Swami. You're a good man, if a bit controversial. We choose our roles, and challenging people's ways of thinking, even if that way of thinking is held by us as "non Establisment", or whatever, is a good role to take. You've challenged my way of thinking, and I've learned from it, and expanded my horizons. Five stars for you!
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineteonacatl
Shaman

Registered: 07/20/03
Posts: 26
Loc: USA
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: The Spirit of the Shroom? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1736248 - 07/21/03 10:03 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I like you Lobo, you seem to have a similar take on things as I do, and, Steevil...I agree with you as well: It doesn't matter wether it is in our heads or not. Many people, including myself, have experienced it as if it were a seperate entity, and I treat it as such. From a psychological perspective, the shroom induces a temporary state of skitzophrenia (I am finishing up my doctrate on psychology just now, and my masters thesis was on the effects of shrooms), and this COULD be the source of the idea that shrooms invoke an entity, but it matters not to me, because this entity teaches me things that are greatly beneficial to my life, and it enhances my religeion (yes, I am a religeious person, but not of the type of religeon most people are used to). I have become a more stable and happier person due to this entity, or to this skitzophrenia, just from taking the mushrooms about every 2 or three months.
I do believe that there is an actual entity that the mushrooms invoke (note that I modify my earlier statement that it is in the shrooms, as that is not correct..I believe that the shrooms bring us into contact with that being, and where it resides, I do not know), but this is all just one of my religeous beliefs...not necesarrily a fact that I recognise...a belief that is right for me, and not necesarrily right for you. If you study quantum physics, they have nearly proved that an individuals perception is not based on reality, but instead reality is based on your perception. This is an age old question raised by Einstein and very poignant here. I know that the shroom entity interacts with me and that it helps me...wether or not it is actually real is beside the point...it only does all this when I trip, so it is not a permanent psychosis and I still act rationally when interacting with it, so It is a harmless psychosis f(and one I intend to keep) if indeed that is what it is.
I had hoped to discuss with others the nature of this entity, and our collective experiences with it, rather than being criticised for my beliefs, but it is always good to question....


--------------------
All information contained above is completely fictional, a product of the authors imagination.
Do what thou Wilt shall be the Whole of the Law.


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