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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: GreeNmOld]
    #17341846 - 12/05/12 11:24 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

For the second time, the straw man is this:

Quote:

YOU SAID: Zermelo–Fraenkel sets are not even remotely universal by definition....




Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? Because I never said anything to the contrary. You said it, shoved it in my mouth, then shot it down as if I said it. That's what a straw man is.

Regardless, ZFC is the foundation of modern mathematics. It is a result of first order logic and still makes recourse to axioms. Even the definition of basic arithmetic depends on Peano Axioms. You can't count or add without those axioms.

You previously said that Pythagoras's Theorem doesn't depend on axioms. That is pure bullshit, as I showed you.

If you are so hopelessly misinformed about basic, baby-level philosophy and math, what does that suggest about your notions about the philosophy of thought.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleGreeNmOld
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17341867 - 12/05/12 11:29 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
For the second time, the straw man is this:

Quote:

YOU SAID: Zermelo–Fraenkel sets are not even remotely universal by definition....




Do you have trouble with reading comprehension? Because I never said anything to the contrary. You said it, shoved it in my mouth, then shot it down as if I said it. That's what a straw man is.

Regardless, ZFC is the foundation of modern mathematics. It is a result of first order logic and still makes recourse to axioms. Even the definition of basic arithmetic depends on Peano Axioms. You can't count or add without those axioms.

You previously said that Pythagoras's Theorem doesn't depend on axiom. That is pure bullshit, as I demonstrated.

If you are so hopelessly misinformed about basic, baby-level philosophy and math, what does that suggest about your notions about the philosophy of thought.




1. "Regardless, ZFC is the foundation of modern mathematics."

get real..

as i stated|:

the biggest gripe wt zfc is thats its not universal by any means..

hence CAN'T be used to question universal axioms.. by definition..

2.You previously said that Pythagoras's Theorem doesn't depend on axiom. That is pure bullshit, as I demonstrated.


didn't see u demonstrate that in ANY way shape or form, logically or "otherwise"...


dude??


--------------------
Clutch!!!!

Neil Fallon, LEGEND

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: GreeNmOld]
    #17341890 - 12/05/12 11:34 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

didn't see u demonstrate that in ANY way shape or form, logically or "otherwise"...

Alright, show me a proof of Pythagoras's Theorem that doesn't depend on any axioms.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17346980 - 12/06/12 09:08 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
They don't occur to anyone or anything; they just are.

That is not my experience.




Have you directly observed a thinker?  Again, the Cartesian Theatre is commonly discredited among most modern philosophers; there is no little homunculus in your brain somewhere observing all your thoughts and feeling all your emotions.

Quote:

Diploid said:
If there was no living matter anywhere in the universe, would thoughts still exist?




No. What's your point?


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: deCypher]
    #17347089 - 12/06/12 09:25 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Have you directly observed a thinker?

Yes, myself.

the Cartesian Theatre is commonly discredited among most modern philosophers

That's nice. But I'm not a homunculus in a theater. I am the embodiment of my own existence. I'm not observing my experiences, I'm experiencing them directly.

Philosophers can philosophize all they like about what I am. However, I am the only authority on that topic.

No. [there would be no thoughts in the universe if life didn't exist] What's your point?

That if life is required for thoughts to exist, then there is a connection, yes? Thoughts are not an ex nihilo feature of the universe per your own admission. If they don't appear out of nothing, then they appear out of something. That something is the thinker.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17347192 - 12/06/12 09:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

There is a system in which thoughts appear, namely the mind/brain, but I've never observed any independent thing that consciously observes thoughts within the mind/brain, which is what the existence of a thinker would entail.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: deCypher]
    #17347254 - 12/06/12 09:54 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I've never observed any independent thing that consciously observes thoughts within the mind/brain

I have, but that doesn't matter anyway.

You've already agreed that thoughts can't exist without living things. It follows that thoughts are the product of living things. They are not ex nihilo or they WOULD exist without living things to think them.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17347278 - 12/06/12 10:00 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

If you're defining a thinker as a human being, then sure, human beings exist.  What I'm arguing against is Descartes' notion of an I or independent "self".


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: deCypher]
    #17347348 - 12/06/12 10:17 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

What I'm arguing against is Descartes' notion of an I or independent "self".

I don't think you or anyone else has given a persuasive argument of this, and my direct experience refutes it.

My thoughts spring forth from me. My perception of my thoughts are direct. I suppose your mileage may vary.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17347410 - 12/06/12 10:26 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Have you not ever experienced ego death, where one's perception of a self disappears?  IMO the self is just an illusion fabricated by the collective group of neural modules in the brain, like that of free will (which recent experiments in neuroscience have shown convincingly to also be illusory).


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: deCypher]
    #17347461 - 12/06/12 10:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Have you not ever experienced ego death, where one's perception of a self disappears?

Actually no. I've been quite well bent and out of my mind on upwards of 20 dry grams, but I've never experienced the mythical "ego death". At least not the way I've read it described. I'm not even sure what that means. There has always been a ME there experiencing wild and weird things.

Ego death sounds like the emperor's clothes to me, actually.

IMO the self is just an illusion fabricated by the collective group of neural modules in the brain, like that of free will

I don't see any reason to call myself an illusion. An illusion is the observation of something that isn't real by an observer. So who is the observer observing the illusion of you?

It's circular psychedelic pshyco-bullshit IMO.

which recent experiments in neuroscience have shown convincingly to also be illusory

Linky?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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OfflineHungry Raptor
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17349394 - 12/07/12 11:08 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I don't see any reason to call myself an illusion. An illusion is the observation of something that isn't real by an observer. So who is the observer observing the illusion of you?





^This...    People tend to think that claiming self, reality, etc to be an illusion is a "skeptical" position.  In truth, I see it as a positive claim that needs to be supported with so good argumentation rather than just saying "prove that it isn't true."


--------------------
“Any system which says, This is a rotten world, wait for the next, give up, do nothing, succumb--that may be the basic Lie and if we participate in believing it and acting (or rather not acting) on it then we involve ourselves in the Lie and suffer dreadfully... which only reinforces that particular Lie.”
― Philip K. Dick

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Hungry Raptor]
    #17349761 - 12/07/12 12:31 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

"All is illusion"

Logically not everything can be an illusion, otherwise the word would have no relative meaning. The word would have sprung out because some things appear to be less real than others.

I do think that there is some ambiguity in the self outside direct experience, but to simply state the self is an illusion is as I mentioned earlier, setting the bar too high. We are not what we might imagine ourselves to be, we are simply what we are. In the scope of the existence of the self this doesn't show up as a lack of self as though we were but mirages in the sand, but rather our level of self-importance... a useful illusion, and at times a thing we would be better off tamping down a bit.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17351326 - 12/07/12 05:04 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

There's a great news story on NPR with a comedian and a neuroscientist discussing humor and human laughter here:

http://www.npr.org/2012/12/07/166736402/no-joke

It's good shit. Worth a listen.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17363079 - 12/09/12 06:21 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
Have you not ever experienced ego death, where one's perception of a self disappears?

Actually no. I've been quite well bent and out of my mind on upwards of 20 dry grams, but I've never experienced the mythical "ego death". At least not the way I've read it described. I'm not even sure what that means. There has always been a ME there experiencing wild and weird things.

Ego death sounds like the emperor's clothes to me, actually.




Ah.  Until you've experienced it it's almost impossible to imagine the perceptual shift, unfortunately--Aleister Crowley writes a good description of the experience (known as samadhi) and the Buddhists do a fairly good job as well, given the difficult nature of the task.  I've experienced it a few times and it essentially consists of the observer (the "I" or self that you're talking about) merging with the observed, and both disappearing upon the merge. Experiencing this lends significant credence to the belief that the self is an illusion. :shrug:

Quote:

Diploid said:
which recent experiments in neuroscience have shown convincingly to also be illusory

Linky?




The Libet experiment, for one.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: deCypher]
    #17363165 - 12/09/12 06:38 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Until you've experienced it it's almost impossible to imagine the perceptual shift

I'll take your word for it. However, I've done enormous amounts of psychedelics of all types, by themselves, and in many combinations, and in small to gigantic doses. I experienced many extremely weird things, but never felt anything anywhere near what is commonly called Ego Death.

The Libet experiment, for one

Now now, I happen to be one of (if not THE) first people here to post about Libet's work many years ago. I'm way ahead of you. Take a look:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/4354172#4354172

I don't agree with your interpretation that it shows anything of the kind about consciousness being an illusion. All it shows is that conscious awareness of our volition lags our volition.

There are brain injuries that cause a person to lose 100% of sight in one eye. They can't see anything at all with that eye. When their good eye is covered and some object is shown in their blind eye's field of view, they aren't aware of it because they can't see anything through that eye. But if they're asked to just guess what is there, they amazingly score almost as well as if they can see.

This doesn't in any way support what you posit either. It just means that the brain has many separate domains of operation which all communicate with each other. In this case the communication between the parts that see and the parts that give conscious perception aren't working normally. In Libet's experiment between the parts that give rise to consciousness and the parts that give rise to volition.

You're making a gigantic unjustified leap from Libet to "consciousness doesn't exist because it's an illusion".


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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Offlinewindowlikcer
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: deCypher]
    #17363189 - 12/09/12 06:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This so-called "ego death" experienced on shrooms and other such things has nothing to do with what is meant by the term samadhi, from what I understand of yogic philosophy. I think Patanjali would say that your "ego death" was not Samadhi, but rather the temporary concentration of your distracted mind. I used to feel the way you do about these things, but feeling that my "ego death" experiences were experiences of samadhi caused me to start studying yogic philosophy, which soon showed me how separate these two phenomenon are.

I think we should all be very careful when trying to liken these things...particularly were we feel compelled to take our knowledge and experience with psyches as interchangeable with knowledge of yogic and Buddhist philosophy.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: Diploid]
    #17363191 - 12/09/12 06:42 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I said that the Libet experiments point towards free will being illusory, not consciousness.

Quote:

windowlikcer said:
This so-called "ego death" experienced on shrooms and other such things has nothing to do with what is meant by the term samadhi, from what I understand of yogic philosophy. I think Patanjali would say that your "ego death" was not Samadhi, but rather the temporary concentration of your distracted mind. I used to feel the way you do about these things, but feeling that my "ego death" experiences were experiences of samadhi caused me to start studying yogic philosophy, which soon showed me how separate these two phenomenon are.




Please elaborate why you think these phenomena are different.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlinewindowlikcer
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: deCypher]
    #17363251 - 12/09/12 06:53 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Because yogic philosophy presents itself as a complete system, and to take samadhi out of its very specific context and use it to explain experiences you've had which in themselves have nothing to do with yoga takes away the meaning of samadhi in the first place.

They are separate phenomenon because the way you go about attaining samadhi is entirely different from the way you go about attaining ego death. The first distinction you need to make is the fact that you cannot achieve ego death at will. Ego death may give you a feeling which you liken to your understanding of the word samadhi, but if you cannot achieve this state at will it is useless to yoga, and so in turn could not really be called samadhi.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: The Ultimate Test of Machine Sentience [Re: windowlikcer]
    #17363295 - 12/09/12 07:00 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

windowlikcer said:
The first distinction you need to make is the fact that you cannot achieve ego death at will.




Sez who? There are certainly actions that when practiced in conjunction with taking psychedelic drugs have made it much more likely that I'll achieve ego death.  I also see no difference in the description of the states of ego-death and Samadhi as recounted by Leary and other writers. :shrug:

At any rate, I have read of Yogis using hashish to achieve Samadhi before so I dispute your contention that psychedelic drugs have nothing to do with the state. Check out the mention of Crowley's classification of ego-less states like Samadhi in this article: Egolessness. He also talks about the state in depth in his book Book Four, which is available online to read for free.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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