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OfflineAnnoA
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Multi Substrate Test - failed
    #1732981 - 07/20/03 07:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Update:
Only a couple of casings fruited. So I won?t be able to use this batch for much.
I will repeat the experiment at a later time.



After much debate in this thread I decided to try and obtain some data on which substrate produces the most potent mushrooms.
I prepared several jars for each substrate according to the PF tek(actually according to PF-Tek for Simple Minds ), pressure cooked for 1 hour and inoculated with liquid mycelium prepared according to the Mycelium Inoculation Technique

The dung jar and the straw jar were prepared just with pure substrate brought to the correct moisture before sterilizing.
The potato jar was prepared with grated potatoes and around 20% moist vermiculite by volume.



The jars were inoculated on the 16th and the 17th this month with the Amazon strain isolate already tested for good pinning characteristics.

For now all the substrates show growth, except for the catfood. The growth in the dung and in the straw jar is very wispy, but is spread over quite some area. Overall the BRF jars show the fastest growth.


After the harvest I will have a the mushrooms from the different substrates tested for psilocybin and psilocin with a liquid chromatography.

PS: the observing reader will notice that there are 2 "corn" jars in the picture, I put the second there by mistake, and didn?t feel like making the shot again after I noticed it, because I placed the jars already back into the incubator.


Edited by Anno (02/10/04 09:37 AM)


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Offlinerealrasta
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1733081 - 07/20/03 08:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

very good anno i love to see this stuff. great job. this is very intresting. just like all your post thanks so much for your hard work keep it up its great


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InvisibleJared
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: realrasta]
    #1733125 - 07/20/03 09:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Excellent experiment :smile:


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Offlinejoeinc
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: realrasta]
    #1733126 - 07/20/03 09:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Cool... I've been contemplating replacing the brf in PF tek with cornmeal to see what happens...with all this hype abount popcorn I'd like to compare a straight pf cake to a cornmeal cake....I've done some preliminary experiments with the cornmeal and find its not very water soluable though... I'm wondering because when i make cakes the brf doesnt generally totally dissolve.. My question to you, Is it better to have a water soluable, or a somewhat water resistant nutrient base? I'm only asking because you seem to be very well informed :P


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OfflineFallenShroom
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: joeinc]
    #1733168 - 07/20/03 09:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very cool can't wait to see the hypothesis of this experiment.


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OfflinePsilocybin_monkey
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: FallenShroom]
    #1733182 - 07/20/03 09:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hahah thats funny that they have cat food in there too


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OfflineSnobrdr311
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Psilocybin_monkey]
    #1733453 - 07/21/03 12:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This is a great experiment, thank you for doing it.


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InvisibleFiend_13
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Snobrdr311]
    #1733628 - 07/21/03 01:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Dont look like Good Ol catfood isint workin to well?


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InvisibleJared
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Fiend_13]
    #1733711 - 07/21/03 01:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What brand and kind of catfood is it..? I have a feeling the different kinds could make a difference, since they're all made from different source substrates..


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OfflinePsilocybin_monkey
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Jared]
    #1733717 - 07/21/03 01:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

that is a good point jared maybe if you tried a different brand of cat food you may have got better results. hahahah (j/k)


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InvisibleMrMaddHatter
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1733828 - 07/21/03 02:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

WOW :smile:
Can't wait for the results! 


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Jared]
    #1733868 - 07/21/03 02:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>What brand and kind of catfood is it..?

It?s Brekkies 3 Variations dry food (Beef, Chicken and Vegetables)


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InvisibleCow Shit Collector
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1733986 - 07/21/03 03:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Finally decided to put the old 'which substrate is the best' to rest? :smile:
Next we'll have to test strains for the highest concentrations!  :mushroom2:

*Claps*  Very good experiment Anno.  This one has been long needed.  Thank you!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Cow Shit Collector]
    #1734391 - 07/21/03 10:15 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

looking forward to more on this one, anno.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1734424 - 07/21/03 10:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very cool experiment Anno, the results should be interesting.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Effed]
    #1734451 - 07/21/03 11:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hey anno,
you should add a jar of hominy.


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Anonymous

Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Hippie3]
    #1734469 - 07/21/03 11:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup: *adds to favorites*


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Hippie3]
    #1734487 - 07/21/03 11:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>you should add a jar of hominy.

Do you think there is a major difference to corn ?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1734500 - 07/21/03 11:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

hominy has the hulls removed so yeah, it's a bit different.
you can use it right out of the can and it will colonize.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1734562 - 07/21/03 12:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very cool experiment Anno.  It'll be nice to see how your tests turns out.  And it also looks as if you've pretty much covered the whole range of substrates pretty well.  This thread is getting marked as a favorite!  :smile:

Peace and keep up the good work!
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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: TekNut]
    #1734574 - 07/21/03 12:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I?m anxious to see the results too.
Yesterday I learned it?s not a good idea to try to make a coherent post at 3AM. :wink:

Not only I included 2 of the corn jars, but I forgot to include the "finch birdseed" and the "amaranth" jar in the photo. 


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
    #1734804 - 07/21/03 02:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
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Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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Offlinecupid
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #1735093 - 07/21/03 03:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't know, althought ANNO has proven time and time again to be VERY reliable with varying studies (and besides i could get flamed) . I do not agree that this will end the classic which substrate is better argument, there are WAY TOO MANY variables, an example could be the humidity inside the terrarium affecting different substrates and their absorbtion rates ? also guaging growth on a time sacal might not be accurate, what if rice is faster to yeild say 10 grams and WBS is lower to yeild only 7 grams , on the first flush and 7 more on the second ? which then is better ?
Therefore I do not believe that any ""professional"" grower could make a decision based on this thread.

P.S. i still think its cool though


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Anonymous

Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: cupid]
    #1735112 - 07/21/03 03:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Alien... the quinoas man!


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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #1735838 - 07/21/03 07:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Good work Anno . The lentils look awsome :thumbup:

Quote:

Alien said:
:thumbup:  :thumbup:  :thumbup:

I wish one with quinoa could have been done. 




I was thinking the same thing  :tongue: and what about rye grass seed ?
Also, i would be interested to see how "The Alien Tec" compared .  :smile: 


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Invisibledog
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1735876 - 07/21/03 07:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very cool Anno. My friend will be watching this one.  :thumbup: 


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OfflineNewSpore
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: dog]
    #1735882 - 07/21/03 07:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

bookmarked this one!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: NewSpore]
    #1735931 - 07/21/03 07:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

cupid, it's very true that there are many uncontrolled variables here that preclude this from truly being 'scientific'.
nevertheless the info, incomplete as it will be, should still expand our knowledge and perhaps point in some directions for further study.


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1736085 - 07/21/03 08:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The Annovator at it again. This is very excellent. Thanks so much for being the 1st one to actually complete the experiment that so many have desired. I cannot wait to see the results of the chromatography. That will be truly interesting.


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Offlinecupid
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Hippie3]
    #1736089 - 07/21/03 08:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

is it not immediatley evident that the substrate with the simplest sugar groups and most basic acids and peptones will show signs of growth before others because they would be the easiest / quickest for the mycelium to ""digest"". A real study IMHO would be to create agar plates with different peptone/acid/protein combos in them and to test them for viability, a PERFECT source of these compounds as ANY SERIOUS shroomerite would already know is in protien powder meal replacment drink mix and many weight gainer products.

To specify these products in specific SOY PROTEIN powder would in theory be like major STREOIDS for mycelium, just be sure not to use whey power as it is a milk product.

PM with any more questions


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: cupid]
    #1736095 - 07/21/03 08:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Experiments have been done on agar formulas ;\

you can read TMC if you'd like to see the results. I believe Anno has done some here as well. It still shows no results for pinning, thorough nutrients for all cycles of life, and chromatography results. You need fruitbodies for these experiments, and that is what anno is testing.


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Cow Shit Collector]
    #1736101 - 07/21/03 08:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Cow Shit Collector said:
Finally decided to put the old 'which substrate is the best' to rest? :smile:
Next we'll have to test strains for the highest concentrations!  :mushroom2:

*Claps*  Very good experiment Anno.  This one has been long needed.  Thank you! 




Quote:

Anno said:
After the harvest I will have a the mushrooms from the different substrates tested for psilocybin and psilocin with a liquid chromatography.




:confused:  :confused:  :confused:  :confused:

Did he not say that was going to happen? heh.


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Offlinecupid
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Raadt]
    #1736118 - 07/21/03 08:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

perhaps you did not fully understand the scope of the study I have proposed here. In TMC it states that the principal growth chemicals needed for mushrooms vary greatly from chlorophyll producing plants, these chemicals are to my understanding called peptodes and if introduced to a culture should have much the same effect as adding Nitrogen and other fertilizers to Green plants, like miracle grow for mushrooms. We should then through the methods you have listed conduct a study into which OTC product contains the ""best mix"" for our our specific purposes.
As for the testing of fruitbodies I was misled by one statment saying after X amount of days there is this much growth showun here but not over there, which led ME to conclude that this was a race against time study.


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OfflineRaadt
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: cupid]
    #1736156 - 07/21/03 09:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's a comprehensive study. Hence his mentioning of the chromatography. Of course there are variables, and most likely no home cultivator will ever be able to construct an environment which will be a truly perfect "control", for these variables. But in the meanwhile what he's doing is very good.

I'm not sure one could find the "perfect additive mix" without knowing exactly what each specie/race/isolate is breaking down and at what rate.

Right now he is trying to find -- albeit roughly, the best substrate for people to use in home cultivation via. the PF tek.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Raadt]
    #1736230 - 07/21/03 09:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

exactly, there could never be a truly 'perfect' substrate unless we all were growing the exact same genetic substrain, otherwise minor differences would make one substrain prefer rice, like pfc's did, while others prefer horse dung, etc.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Hippie3]
    #1736929 - 07/22/03 02:03 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
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Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien] * 1
    #1737180 - 07/22/03 03:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>I would like a rundown on how the liquid chromatography will be done; IE a lab or home?

A HPLC analysis in a lab in Prague.
I can include quinoa too, sure, and rye grass seeds.

As for the argument of too many variables etc, etc....
This will always be the case, with every experiment you do, regardless of the subject tested.
But one has to start somewhere, talking about doing the "perfect" experiment is good, but doing an imperfect one is still better, IMO.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
    #1737372 - 07/22/03 05:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)



--------------------
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Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #1737443 - 07/22/03 07:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

best experiment in ages. how are you planning on testing them e.g. just picking a simiar size and maturity fruitbody from each? or harvest the entire batch, dry it and make a homogenous mix to get an average?

it would also be interesting to see the yeild from each too and time taken to finish. also differences from 1st and 2nd flush. just like cannabis strains, some give huge yield but a lower weight producing strain may give more THC per watt. i dont mind the taste of shrooms too much so i would go with the one which gives the most psilocybin in the shortest time with the cheapest grain, this doesnt necessarily mean they are potent.

white rice Vs brown would be interesting. another i thought of is brewers yeast, using it just like BRF with verm

as for cat food, 9 out of 10 cubensis prefer whiskas ;-)


Edited by blackout (07/22/03 07:03 AM)


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: blackout]
    #1737573 - 07/22/03 08:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> how are you planning on testing them e.g. just picking a simiar size
>and maturity fruitbody from each? or harvest the entire batch, dry it
>and make a homogenous mix to get an average?

The later, harvesting them when the veil begins to tear. I?d like to obtain average values for each substrate.
I thought about combining the first 2 flushes.

I added 3 more substrates to the experiment today: quinoa, rye grass seed and spelt.


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Offlinecupid
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1737670 - 07/22/03 10:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i really like blackouts idea of performing a cost benefit analysis on the final results, perhaps someone who understands this methodology can interpret the results for the rest of us to provide a basic cost effectiveness chart that we could perhaps turn into the FAQ of all FAQ's


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
    #1737966 - 07/22/03 01:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



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Alien Substrate Instructional:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG82xLzrNg8


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Invisiblehoushroom
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: cupid]
    #1738184 - 07/22/03 02:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

think of it as how much you pay per mg of psilocin or psilocybin. but what does it matter, you're growing for a hobby, right?!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1738284 - 07/22/03 03:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I added 3 more substrates to the experiment today: quinoa, rye grass seed and spelt.





if you're still down for more substrates, try kamut

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1999/v4-182.html

my sister's parrot really likes this stuff. thanks for taking the time to do an EXCELLENT experiment.



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Edited by BrainFarmer (07/23/03 12:28 AM)


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1738709 - 07/22/03 05:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

but what does it matter, you're growing for a hobby, right?!

For some of us, it is the science of growing that is the hobby...


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1739310 - 07/22/03 08:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Amazing!!

How do you find the time?

:smile: :shocked: :cool: 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1739879 - 07/22/03 11:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

this is a very good and nicely done experiment, and thank you for sharing good friend


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #1740251 - 07/23/03 02:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Today?s progress:



The catfood jars were taken out of the competition after nearly 1 week without colonization.

The brf, birdseed and potato jar are pretty much on the same colonization level, also straw is quite colonized, although the mycelium is very thin compared to grains.
The dung jar is also colonizing, but the mycelium is nearly invisible.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1740266 - 07/23/03 02:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:thumbup:
The results I await will be invaluable!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1740345 - 07/23/03 04:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The potato jar was prepared with grated potatoes and around 20% moist vermiculite by volume.




Hmmm, spuds look good. Did you peel & grate or did the peel go in as well?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1740347 - 07/23/03 04:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I added 3 more substrates to the experiment today: quinoa, rye grass seed and spelt.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



if you're still down for more substrates, try kamut





The complete nutritional analysis of kamut brand grain substantiates that it is higher in energy than other wheats. Compared to common wheat, it is higher in eight of nine minerals, such as magnesium and zinc. It has been found to contain much more of the natural antioxidant selenium and is 30% higher in the similarly important vitamin E. The grain also contains up to 65% more amino acids and boasts more lipids and fatty acids. The most striking superiority of kamut brand wheat is found in its protein level, up to 40% higher than the national average for wheat. Because of its higher percentage of lipids, which produce more energy in the body than carbohydrates, kamut brand wheat can be described as a "high energy grain."

here's another link illustrating why you might want to include my my pet grain...

full nutritional analysis of kamut alongside that of commercial wheat

not trying to be pushy, Anno, but you got me drooling for data!  :grin:

peace,
-BF 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1740441 - 07/23/03 06:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You are putting alot of energy in this project but comparisions of substrates have been done lots of times already. Rye (Beug&Bigwood) and brown rice (Gartz) came out as winners.

In my observation the cultivation technique (moment of harvesting, temperature) is much more important than the substrate. And of course the used mushroom.

At this moment my hypothesis is that the potency is highest in mushrooms where the psilocybin-degrading enzymes have not done much of their work yet. Which is the case in young mushrooms and especially at low temperatures. I bet you get the highest potency in mushrooms which are grown at the lowest acceptable temperature (15-18 centigrade) on the substrate which is rye or rice (rice for strains which were distributed by PF and not adapted to something else).

Yachaj



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycophreak] * 1
    #1740453 - 07/23/03 06:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>comparisons of substrates have been done lots of times already. Rye
>(Beug&Bigwood) and brown rice (Gartz) came out as winners.

Can you point me to those research papers?


I know of a document by Beug & Bigwood where they have grown P. cubensis on rye , and ONLY on rye. It?s only natural that rye came out as the winner.
http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/


And I know of a document by Gartz where he grew P. cubensis on dung+rice and this was AGAIN the only substrate he used.
http://www.psilocybe.org/Wissenschaft/aspects01.htm



>In my observation the cultivation technique (moment of harvesting, temperature)
> is much more important than the substrate.

This will be the same for all substrates.


>And of course the used mushroom.

Same isolate of P. cubensis for all substrates.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1740529 - 07/23/03 08:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I dont remember any study by Gartz that indicated that Brown Rice flour had a higher precursor content than any other substrate type - infact id be very doubtful as its precursor content is low as the previous post that anno posted to indicates. Besides Ive read studies by Gartz that describe ps.cyanescens from the US and Europe as different species, when i know that this isnt his correct opinion, just poor english.
Id have to utterly disagree with Mycophreak's statement regarding environmental factors having a more significant role than substrate on potency. All my experience disagrees with this statement. And if you read Gartz you will find that his studies do indicate a profound effect on alkaloid content with variations of precursors in substrates - and certainly dont state that BRF is a more potent substrate to my mind.
Im glad you have to time to put this to rest Anno, but PLEASE include straight millet - as well as finch seed mixes.
About two years ago it was commonly accepted that substrate had an effect and I was told by atleast 20 respected people (and im guessing that they would have been Major Millet, Hongus, Dimitri, Uma Guma, Forty Ounces, Club 99, Workman, Roadkill, and others that i cannot remember and some of these may be incorrect) that millet above all others produced bigger yields, bigger meatier mushrooms and more potent cubies. As Gartz studies indicate a positive effect on potency with more precursors, and because Starter in the previous post demonstrated Millet had a much higher precursor content, Im positive it does. If you dont believe try it.
Its important to get the nutrient content the same for each study to be acccurate (ofcourse).
Good luck Anno and im glad you have the time to pursue this one. Ill be surprised if you dont notice significant differences. Mark my words and all that :smile:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycophreak] * 1
    #1740874 - 07/23/03 12:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You are putting alot of energy in this project but comparisions of substrates have been done lots of times already.

Science without independent verification is not science.  I have seen nothing except net gossip relating substrate to alkaloid concentrations.  Perhaps your sources are better than mine.  :smile:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Seuss]
    #1741164 - 07/23/03 02:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah Anno, mycophreak is right, this isn't science, better call the whole thing off as no one is obviously interested in YOUR results.. And of course since comparisions of different substrates have been done lots of times already, I am sure mycrophreak will be posting those sources for us 8^)

Best to let this one alone.. I mean.. you aren't even accounting for which phase of the moon you started these jars in so what could possibly be learned. Best to not even leave the house in the morning. People have already done that. There is nothing to see here.. What you saw was the planet Venus.



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: ThE_JafF]
    #1741239 - 07/23/03 03:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:lol:  LMFAO  :nut: 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: deanofmean]
    #1741577 - 07/23/03 04:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

This is a science because as long as all conditions but one *remain the same* as controls then the variable (substrate) is tested.  You can talk all you want about the effects of substrates on potency, but getting actual numbers (such as percentages of active content in the tissue) is what we're interested in.  Even an experienced shroomer couldn't judge this effectively, or enough to be considered scientific. 

*however, this does not mean that if mushroom john told me i'd trip balls on a certain shroom i wouldn't believe him* :smile:


Edited by houshroom (07/23/03 04:28 PM)


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: houshroom]
    #1744890 - 07/24/03 04:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Here is my idea spelled out more basically, as of now is that if you supplement your substrate with the aforementioned product it will yield faster stronger longer growing substrate. The study I propose (if you understand what HYDROPONICS) is at all is to use a nutrient devoid substrate like marbels or gravel or whatever is cheap and add only water and chemicals to this substrate and grow shrooms for an indefenite length of time, because when ever neutrients runs low you would just add more liquid food and the myc would produce OVER AND OVER, also how could it become infected if there is no solid matter for competing organisms to take hold on and the LIQUID could have a antibiotic in it h2o2 for example. All in all i think my mix is getting pretty close because if i add it to a dying substrate it grows like MAGIC but i cant quite get it to go 100% HYDROPONIC with just water and the mix yet but again im getting close.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Seuss]
    #1744942 - 07/24/03 04:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I meant about the cost....not the results :smile:  You don't grow to sell do you? 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: cupid]
    #1744965 - 07/24/03 04:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

*applause* Thank you, Anno. It's experimentors like you who really make this board what it is.

I really look forward to seeing the results of the chromatography. Could you point me at directions for doing this myself?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Sev]
    #1744978 - 07/24/03 04:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Whoops, didn't see that you were sending out to a lab.  Wish I had access to a resource like that.  :smile:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1745701 - 07/24/03 08:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you Anno!
I'm glad to see someone who still takes our hobby seriously.
This thread is long as hell and I just skimmed through it so if I say something already mentioned please excuse my ignorance.

I think you will find that it not only has to do with the available precursors in the substrate but each individual substrain's ability to process the available precursors into active chems.
Some will be able to convert more than others, obviously.
To accurately preform this experiment its gonna take a whole lot of these experiment to come to a final conclusion as to which is best for what substrate...
My 2...


Keep up the great work
FM


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Edited by FungusmaximusFM (07/24/03 08:56 PM)


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1745858 - 07/24/03 09:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think there is also the question as to whether each substrate is prepared at it's optimum conditions, most notably water content.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1747262 - 07/25/03 08:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I dont think water content will effect psilocibe production, only nutrients right? Im just a noob tho


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1748748 - 07/25/03 05:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hey Anno, Im interested in seeing if spawnmate effects potency.
It certainly effects growth rates and size, as I've seen first hand.
I will gladly send you some promycel 600 spawnmate , if you would like to include it into your experiment?
That would be good info to find out....


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1749144 - 07/25/03 08:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It probably wouldn't affect potency, but it would affect colonization time.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: cupid]
    #1750128 - 07/26/03 04:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

cupid said:
Here is my idea spelled out more basically, as of now is that if you supplement your substrate with the aforementioned product it will yield faster stronger longer growing substrate. The study I propose (if you understand what HYDROPONICS) is at all is to use a nutrient devoid substrate like marbels or gravel or whatever is cheap and add only water and chemicals to this substrate and grow shrooms for an indefenite length of time, because when ever neutrients runs low you would just add more liquid food and the myc would produce OVER AND OVER, also how could it become infected if there is no solid matter for competing organisms to take hold on and the LIQUID could have a antibiotic in it h2o2 for example. All in all i think my mix is getting pretty close because if i add it to a dying substrate it grows like MAGIC but i cant quite get it to go 100% HYDROPONIC with just water and the mix yet but again im getting close.





please elaborate???


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: ahel]
    #1750502 - 07/26/03 12:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

ahel said:
Quote:

cupid said:
Here is my idea spelled out more basically, as of now is that if you supplement your substrate with the aforementioned product it will yield faster stronger longer growing substrate. The study I propose (if you understand what HYDROPONICS) is at all is to use a nutrient devoid substrate like marbels or gravel or whatever is cheap and add only water and chemicals to this substrate and grow shrooms for an indefenite length of time, because when ever neutrients runs low you would just add more liquid food and the myc would produce OVER AND OVER, also how could it become infected if there is no solid matter for competing organisms to take hold on and the LIQUID could have a antibiotic in it h2o2 for example. All in all i think my mix is getting pretty close because if i add it to a dying substrate it grows like MAGIC but i cant quite get it to go 100% HYDROPONIC with just water and the mix yet but again im getting close.





please elaborate???






on what part ?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: cupid]
    #1750550 - 07/26/03 01:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think you will have an algae problem with your idea; however, I am intrigued and suggest you go through with your experiment. This is also way off the topic of the thread, maybe you want to start a new one?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: YidakiMan]
    #1752629 - 07/27/03 10:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I would think that it would be interesting to see which substrate had the highest concentration of tryptophan in the first place . Though normally isolated from casein I would think that certain amounts are probably in different substrates .


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1753481 - 07/27/03 06:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes true, but the whole point of this test is potency right? Heh anyways, have any updates Anno? this is a neat experiment.



OMG did I just say neat?


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: 2Experimental]
    #1753496 - 07/27/03 06:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #1753825 - 07/27/03 08:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm not criticising, just commentating.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1753900 - 07/27/03 09:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I am interested in not only potency, but yield as well. Hopefully this will be included...
I am sure Anno has taken all necessary precautions to make this a good controlled experiment, and this is the closest thing we will have besides speculation to end the potency debate. The conclusions revealed here will leave no questions in my mind once complete.
So, for anyone that wants to criticize the experiment before it is even half finished:




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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: ATWAR]
    #1754345 - 07/28/03 12:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Anno,

I would also like to thank you for performing this substrate evaluation. I am particularly intrigued about your plan to quantitate actives. Please keep updated.
Could you assay a couple of aborts while your at the HPLC? Also any fruits grown under stress (low rh, low vs high temp).
I mean if you have the time :wink:

 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycophage]
    #1754571 - 07/28/03 02:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Anno,

I just thought of something; forgive me if it?s already been stated. Is there any possibility that you can compare the degree of bluing to the potency results? This may help shed light on that old argument also. Perhaps chop the stem in half of a couple mushrooms from each substrate and compare?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: ATWAR]
    #1754697 - 07/28/03 04:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

These would all be genetically identical. To test for that you would probably want to test both genetically identical accross different substrates, and geneticaly varied on the same substrate.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1755042 - 07/28/03 06:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Update:
All jars are colonized, except for amaranth(4/5 colonized) and dung(2/3 colonized).

The fastest were BRF, finch birdseed and grated potato.

As for the yield.... I will try to note the yield also. As good as possible.
As I already said, I will combine the mushrooms of the first 2 flushes of each substrate for the test.

I will let the jars colonize for a few more days, and then put them in the fridge, cause I?m leaving for 2-3 weeks. I will case and fruit them when I come back, so we will have fruits at earliest in 1 month.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1755332 - 07/28/03 08:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I will let the jars colonize for a few more days, and then put them in the fridge, cause I?m leaving for 2-3 weeks. I will case and fruit them when I come back, so we will have fruits at earliest in 1 month.

WHAT!?!?  You can't build everybody up like this and just leave without delivering!  Just kidding!!!  :smile:  I cannot wait to see the results, even if we have to wait a bit longer than expected.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Seuss]
    #1755529 - 07/28/03 10:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

im just happy its going on. thanks anno


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1756977 - 07/28/03 07:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

what a tease...

want me to house sit for you?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1757186 - 07/28/03 09:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm really curious to see how or if potency is related to tryptophan content.

BTW, Whey protein powder has about 20 times as much tryptophan as brown rice.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1757332 - 07/28/03 09:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Its really sounding great anno!
Im impressed as always. :heart:  :thumbup:


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Offlinecupid
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Effed]
    #1761140 - 07/29/03 11:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

see now mr hitler is on to something i never considered whey powder i'll look into it


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Offlinelemunhed
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1761274 - 07/29/03 11:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
BTW, Whey protein powder has about 20 times as much tryptophan as brown rice. 




Whoa.... lets hold the boat here. Hitler, if you have ever done any grows with that could you PM me or post and give me some info? would be infinitely thankful :wink:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1762141 - 07/30/03 10:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I got a big ass jar of that stuff too. Maybe I will try a few jars. Think subbing it for the BRF in PF Tek jars would work?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1762307 - 07/30/03 11:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you would like to fly me to austria, I would gladly take care of your crops for you =D


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: lemunhed]
    #1762443 - 07/30/03 12:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

As far as I know whey powder has not been tried. I would only use it as a supplement, not a replacement for anything.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1763619 - 07/30/03 07:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

damn , i wanted that credit . LMAO


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: 284_27]
    #1765929 - 07/31/03 02:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i'm in love with this thread, experiment and all those questions wich poping in our minds right now ! Thanks Anno ! Enjoy your vaccations !


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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1765995 - 07/31/03 02:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:

BTW, Whey protein powder has about 20 times as much tryptophan as brown rice. 




hmmm, shrooms on steroids ? :nut:

i'd be afraid that it might make my tits grow .  you try it first . :lol:



 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: deanofmean]
    #1822350 - 08/17/03 11:44 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Has this thread been abandoned? There hasn't been a post in almost 3 weeks!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: megaman3]
    #1822611 - 08/17/03 02:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

anno went on vacation.  the thread's chill'n in his fridge :wink:

 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1825400 - 08/18/03 09:22 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Oh right! I had read that and I forgot. Well, I hope that the refridgeration won't skew the results


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: megaman3]
    #1825618 - 08/18/03 11:53 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Refridgeration is good for chillin'!  :wink:

Isn't it funny how vacations seem to last forever unless it's YOUR vacation??  :smile:

Peace,
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: TekNut]
    #1825659 - 08/18/03 12:26 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

LOL TekNut, I never noticed that.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1825717 - 08/18/03 12:50 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

so you are saying that 5% supplementation with whey powder on BRF effectively doubles trp content?

Sesame seed apparently has 0.5% trp and sunflowers eeds and hulls are pretty good too....


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OfflineMycena
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Mycena]
    #1825833 - 08/18/03 01:28 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Have to agree with Bluemeanie about millet - its great stuff
Smaller and so sterilises more evenly, more innoculation points and nutritious

I did some web research a while ago to look at alternative formulations for possible 5 hydroxytryptophan biosynth using a species of Panaeolus.

Of the millets Fox and Pearl came up the highest at 191 and 121 mg/g trp respectively (Sources: FAO. 1970a; Indira and Naik. 1971.). Pearl is generally easier to find

Apart from sesame at 0.5% , soy bean meal compared favourably at 0.7%
Fish meal and blood meal were 0.75 and 1% respectively. It is certainly more likely that the former sources would be more aesthetically pleasing in a cake as well as cheaper.

Brown rice flour isnt so bad. It has more trp than corn for example which is notoriously deficient. BRF has several attribute that make it suitable for cakes that Rye, barely, wheat and potato flours lack. - try them out - theyre awful solid as a rock or gluggy.
Millet flour is good in cakes but not quite as structurally good as BRF - i think a mix might be good especially ammended with high trp supplements.

I once made wheat spawn ammended with a fraction of TVP (Textured vegetable protein)(made from soy) - worked wonderfully - the density and vigour of the mycelium was second only to the time i saw some on rabbit shit w/ wheat straw - In both cases the density and satin sheen of the mycelium made it look more like one of its woodloving cousins than the regular sort.

If the results do come back as indicating a correlation between trp and potency perhaps a Polenta based cake (tested for low trp) plus increasing increments of trp (from supplements) followedby analysis could give a more meaningful result that would meet scientific scrutiny




Edited by Mycena (08/19/03 08:42 AM)


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Mycena]
    #1825846 - 08/18/03 01:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

And im told the potency floored the consumers - they od'd by a factor of about 50% on what they were expecting ie took 3 got 4.5


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Mycena]
    #1827436 - 08/18/03 07:38 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Mycena, would you say that the potency is noticably lacking on a mushroom grown off of a casing of 50/50+ with cracked corn as the lone ingredient of substrate?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Mycena]
    #1828122 - 08/18/03 11:31 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Mycena, that is all conjecture, and we  have all heard it at least twice before .
that is why we are  anxiously  awaiting  these test  results from the lab . 
don't even think about trying to hyjack anno's thread  :mad:


Edited by deanofmean (08/18/03 11:42 PM)


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OfflineMycena
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: deanofmean]
    #1828862 - 08/19/03 08:26 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Yidakiman - dont know - never grown on Corn - in fact i dont grow on grain anymore - grains just for spawn. Im just stating the published nutritional data which i feel adds to the background and interpretation of whatever anno finds.

Deanofmean -
i think anno would have brought it up himself if he objected to others making a contribution to this discussion. My commenst are not conjecture - they are based on Observation, subjective experience of experienced trippers and publsihed scientific data
This is the second time in 1 day youve put your 2c into a topic ive posted on seriously without actually contributing any point of worth

This IS the advanced Forum. Please Contribute seriously or else go back to mushroom cultivation.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1845122 - 08/24/03 11:57 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Short update:
All the jars are colonized and in the fridge by now(of course), but I will be very busy for another 3 weeks, so I will bring them to fruit after the 15th of september.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1845144 - 08/24/03 12:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

AHHHH the suspense!!!!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1845201 - 08/24/03 01:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

With all of this waiting and putting cakes in and out of fridges, I wonder now how telling the results will be. I would have preferred a straight grow because now I'll wonder how the refrigeration for 6 weeks straight will have affected the experiment. The good thing is that it's all the same strain isolate, so strain-specific temperature sensitivity will not be an issue.



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: megaman3]
    #1845210 - 08/24/03 01:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

>I would have preferred a straight grow because now I'll wonder how >the refrigeration for 6 weeks straight will have affected the
experiment.

Trust me, me too.
I?ll see how it goes, and if there should be need, I?ll repeat it on a later time.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
    #1845465 - 08/24/03 03:21 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #1845499 - 08/24/03 03:43 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i'd bet the long delay, even at low temp, will actually increase potency, at least slightly.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1846690 - 08/24/03 10:57 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Heheh sounds good Anno. You have more patience than I ever would.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: TekNut]
    #1859660 - 08/28/03 05:49 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

i just found some info in the www that oats would have a lot more Tryptophan than millet...

http://waltonfeed.com/self/ntr2.html

so why is there no jar with straight oats ?

i came to this idea, cause i thought millet would be translated in my language what in real is oats in english....
so i thought a lot of oats now, they should be "eaten" very good by the mycelium cause of the small surface.....

and i found some german webside which declares wheat (Weizen-) would have most T. :

http://www.vegetarierbund.de/nv/nv_2003_2__Essen_macht_Laune.htm

since now i was growing on straight wheat....i liked it...wondering if should change to millet or oats.....


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1866824 - 08/30/03 09:56 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

While you are having them anaylized for potency, you should take this opportunity to test the common belief that the cap is more potent than the stem.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: vader]
    #1869597 - 08/31/03 11:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Deanofmean:
'Mycena, that is all conjecture, and we have all heard it at least twice before .
that is why we are anxiously awaiting these test results from the lab .
don't even think about trying to hyjack anno's thread '

That is pretty redudant. Starter has already demonstrated that millet has a higher trytophan content than most other substrates commonly used for cubensis fruiting, and Gartz has already been demonstrated that tryptophan precursors do effect potency = especially when you consider that psilocybin and psilocin represent converted tryptophans (against demonstrated in scientific evaluations). Just because someone is adding a comment that doesnt appeal to your view does not mean they are 'hijacking' anyone's thread.
I dont really think that Anno's house constitutes a 'lab' either (no offence to Anno as for all I know he may have a huge lab in his shed).
I am confident that providing Anno is using a Finch seed that has a high mixture of millet in it, that it will out yield and produce more potent mushrooms than the other substrates - and we all await his results.



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Invisibledeanofmean
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1872630 - 09/01/03 11:27 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Mycena,
i apologize for the, hyjacking Anno's thread comment .
(dean sometimes gets mean when he drinks).
it is pretty well excepted that millet is superior to rice, wheat, and rye berries for potency .
however this experiment involves a bit more .

if we are going to insert opinions in this thread, here are mine .

quinoa, lentils, and rye grass seed will finish as top contenders .

when yield per gm. of substrate is factored in, i think the results from oats may be surprising .(and rice too!)
when all is said and done, it would be awesome if someone did a bar graph for visual effect .


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OfflineMycena
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: deanofmean]
    #1873858 - 09/02/03 12:53 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

No worries Dean. :smile:


Edited by Mycena (09/02/03 01:02 PM)


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Mycena]
    #1910803 - 09/12/03 09:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Anno - If you know of a lab that can do these chromotography tests, I would be willing to contribute financially for a few experiments. First, growing all of the popular strains in whatever this test shows to be the most potent way, then get each one analyzed. Tho the "Which strain is better" question will never be answered, if we knew what strains contained how much of which tryptamines, at least we'd have some sort of objective ruler for them. As I said, I have a few other tests that I'd ilke to see, and if you'd be willing to conduct them and get the product tested, I'd be willing to renumerate you financially for the tests, or a part o them at least.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: lysergic]
    #1917377 - 09/15/03 04:54 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thank you for the offer, I might come back to that at a later moment.
Right now I?m in the process of casing all those different substrate .jars.


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Anonymous

Post deleted by Papaver [Re: Anno]
    #1917533 - 09/15/03 08:48 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1917701 - 09/15/03 11:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

lysergic, it's quite possible that different substrates would give different results depending on the strain. I think before you do an experiment like you suggest, it would be a good idea to repeat anno's current experiment with a few different diverse strains to see if the results are consistent across strains.

If they are, then your experiment sounds interesting. If not, then it may be possible to determine not only the best substrate, but the best substrate for each strain. Just a thought....


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycofile]
    #1923847 - 09/17/03 01:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

mycofile - Excellent! Imagine how nice it would be to live in a country where analysys could be conducted on these little beauties. Just off the top of my head...

Testing each strain on each substrate to see what makes it produce the most..

Testing mycelia to see if it contains psilocybin...

Testing caps or stems, which is the most potent?

What strain(s) contain the most amount of psilocybin when grown in their ideal substrate...

will mixing tryptophan / nutrietn rich poop soup with WBS lead to increased potency?

Etc etc etc.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: lysergic]
    #1939714 - 09/22/03 04:15 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Any updates? I'm extremely anxious to hear the results.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: daussaulit]
    #1939715 - 09/22/03 04:16 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i was about to bump this thread too :smile:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: ]
    #1940155 - 09/22/03 11:20 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

gpwebbler said:
Today is the 15th! Can't wait to see those casings Anno. Great job so far.




23rd today,come on anno we are on the edge of our seats!post a pic please


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: ]
    #1940210 - 09/22/03 11:44 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

The man is busy with school!
Give him time!!!!  :smirk:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: ]
    #1940312 - 09/22/03 12:37 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

No pins yet.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1953211 - 09/26/03 03:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Dear Anno,

I have been up late tonight researching your many posts, mostly doing research on casing. If you get a chance between school studies, could you please list your casing mix you will use in this test.

I found that you seemed to favor an even coir/verm/peat based potting soil mix, then adding either limestone, oyster shells, and or calcium carbonate. It seems at one time you liked a 10% mix of oyster shells and lime, then another it was 5%. I was wondering if you have settled in on an exact mix now or you still vary it depending on a certain situations.

My thinking as of now (would love your opinion) and with what I have available is that a good mix would be:

3 1/2 cups Coco Coir
3 1/2 cups Peat (all I have is Schultz brand peat)
3 1/2 cups Vermiculite
1 cup Oyster Shells
1/4 cup Calcium Carbonate

This would make a nice thin casing layer for 2 small kitty litter trays in my case.

Do you think I am too light on the calcium carb? I wanted to hold back some since there is oyster shell.

One last question is your thoughts on using the vermiculite layer in the bottom, and would it help to drill some small holes in the bottom of a casing pan to let it breathe just a tad. With a verm layer on the bottom and the holes its almost like an upside down giant PF jar :wink:

I really enjoyed the Ecuadors grow logs, and the Burma log. This search engine rules and thanks for all the information you have put here. I will be looking for more.

Any feedback is way much appreciated  :heart:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Phoogle]
    #1953390 - 09/26/03 05:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Dear Phoogle,

I still use this mix similar to what you wrote down.
I ceased to measure the ingredients exactly though since it doesn?t seem to matter much that the ratios are exact. So I simply guesstimate the ratios.
As for the calcium carbonate, again, I didn?t notice any major difference between using 5 or 10%.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1953729 - 09/26/03 09:50 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Anno, gib uns Ergebnisse bitte!
Irgendwas! Bilder, dumme Worte, einfach Irgendwas! BITTE!

-- Nee, lass dir Zeit, ich mein ja nur... :P


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: JazzMatazz]
    #1953925 - 09/26/03 11:41 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Some of the trays started to pin.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1953928 - 09/26/03 11:42 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Thx! Now I can sleep peacefully!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1954791 - 09/26/03 05:12 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Puuuuuuuuuuush the little shroomies and make em' come up!

Puuuuuuuuuuush the little shroomies and make em' come up!

Puuuuuuuuuuush the little shroomies and make em' come up!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1955715 - 09/26/03 10:53 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

nice!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: tak]
    #1956086 - 09/27/03 01:34 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

shweet...


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1962137 - 09/29/03 09:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Puuuuuuuuuuush the little shroomies and make em' come up!




hey bitch, that used to be my tagline!  i think what you meant to say was:

Push the little shroomies and make'm come up! - BrainFarmer

:lol:
sorry if that was off topic :wink:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1969811 - 10/01/03 05:20 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Anno - I posted something abotu this earlier. If you would like some assistance (financially) getting further batches of mushrooms tested for potency, I'd be willing to contribute. I think that I'd personally like to see some potency tests on all the strains out there. Also, waht will your chromotography represent? Just psilocybin/psilocin ? I'm definatly interested in the amount of all tryptamines contained in the fruitbody, especially DMT. Thanks again, buddy.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: lysergic]
    #1974470 - 10/03/03 12:01 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

c'monh its like christmas i wanna see those pins!



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: lysergic]
    #1989766 - 10/08/03 12:53 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

bump?!


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: JazzMatazz]
    #1989964 - 10/08/03 02:09 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The casings don?t fruit to well, I have harvested the first flush off 4 off them.
Let?s see how this develops, otherwise I will repeat the test on a later time when I can pull the grow through without the long pause.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1990117 - 10/08/03 03:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Have you any pictures Anno?  If not thats cool I know you're busy.  Thanks for the interesting post :thumbup:.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1996005 - 10/10/03 03:44 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The casings don?t fruit to well




That makes no sense, hehe. Are you saying this round is not fruiting well? I browsed through the posts but the one you replied to makes no sense as far as what you said.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Phoogle]
    #1996080 - 10/10/03 04:25 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Not all casings are producing fruits, yet.
This can be a problem, since you can?t compare the different substrates if you don?t have any fruits from those substrates.
Let?s give it some time and see what happens.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1996125 - 10/10/03 05:23 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Possibly this test could demonstrate that extended periods of cold /suspended animation lead to lower numbers of pins ? As long as we learn something, I believe it's a sucess.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: lysergic]
    #1996600 - 10/10/03 11:40 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Not really - one test is never conclusive - especially on that type of hypothesis. At the end of the day, it will only demonstrate what many people already know - millet is a better substrate than rye/brown rice and most others...


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1996756 - 10/10/03 12:37 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

>At the end of the day, it will only demonstrate what many people
>already know - millet is a better substrate than rye/brown rice and
>most others...

Hehe, why don?t you wait till the outcome? :wink:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #1996965 - 10/10/03 01:51 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I've been quite interested in conducting a similar experiment myself only using various mixtures of different nutritional ingredients in the same jar. I wonder the outcome of mixing WBS, BRF, verm, corn, etc.. in sensible combinations and ratios (not necessarily all of those in the same jar) to determine what variety of nutrients in the correct proportions will produce faster/better more powerful flushes.
Instead of water I'm consider using nutritional (beef, chicken) broths in leu of or addition to just plain water. I wonder if a diluted agar solution would bring about any significant growth affects. What do you think? Agar Tek?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Flux]
    #1998179 - 10/10/03 07:07 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

well agar is just for making a small piece o mycleium and tzhen spawninh some substrae. I owuld think agar spawns quicker than a syringe , but that's no suprise.Casue you've already got mycelium, whch a syringe doesnt have.
Jazz (drunk)


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: JazzMatazz]
    #1999871 - 10/11/03 12:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Actually I'm thinking about adding those canned chicken broths to my jars because a.) they have already bean sterilized, b.) having already been sterilized and skimmed so I don't have to worry about my substrate thickening/sticking from protein coagulation. Also, since fungi are chemoheterotrophs I could image at least some benefits from adding extra amino acids.  :crazy2: mmmm... vagina   


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
    #2024081 - 10/20/03 12:31 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Tremor1127]
    #2028778 - 10/21/03 02:54 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Anything new happening here?  We should be getting close to some new photos or something.  :wink:

-TekNut- 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: TekNut]
    #2028881 - 10/21/03 03:26 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

i think Anno may be running another experiment, to see how long it takes to ware down people's patients . :lol: 


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: deanofmean]
    #2031390 - 10/22/03 03:56 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Lol, no, that?s not the case, but in the moment there isn?t much to report.
I harvested a couple of the casings, and the rest are either slowly beginning to pin, or they do nothing.

As I said, if I don?t get enough fruits from the "crucial" substrates, I will repeat the experiment at a later moment when I?m at home for a longer period of time.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
    #2031585 - 10/22/03 06:14 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Tremor1127]
    #2075398 - 11/06/03 12:46 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

bump. what is the status anno?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: daussaulit]
    #2075685 - 11/06/03 02:06 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Only a couple of casings fruited. So I won?t be able to use this batch for much.

I will repeat the experiment on a later time.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2075880 - 11/06/03 03:08 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Looking forward to it :]


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Paid]
    #2160530 - 12/05/03 05:34 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

no pics :frown:  im sad now


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Told]
    #2160732 - 12/05/03 09:32 AM (17 years, 3 months ago)

No pictures.

What I did harvest recently is a GT clone on birdseed and rye, and a B+ clone on birdseed and rye.

I will sent those in, let?s see if the tests can be made with them.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2166247 - 12/07/03 12:40 PM (17 years, 3 months ago)

this place that your sending your fruits to be tested, is this open to the public? i would really like to send in some wild cubes here from louisiana just to get an idea of their potency compared to homegrown fruits.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: back2growing]
    #2166629 - 12/07/03 03:48 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Open to public...well, it depends, it?s the Mycology Department of the National Museum in Prag, Czech Republic.
I know a person there who will try to get this thing organized.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2167205 - 12/07/03 07:56 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

If you have access to a spectrophotometer, all you need to do is extract w/ acetic acid/ether from the fruitbodies -- the analogues should be in a sufficient quantity to test the peaks on psilocybin in ethanol. I think the best is at like 256 nm, but I'd have to check. I know it's listed in Merck.

This would get you somewhat of a quantitative result -- probably enough if one were to have enough samples to provide a reasonable mean.

There's always TLC/NMR or HPLC, too....

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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: micro]
    #2167235 - 12/07/03 08:13 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

How exactly would one use the spectrophotometer without a HPLC?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2167242 - 12/07/03 08:17 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

You don't need thaaaat pure of a sample. If the extract has >50% psilocybin you should be able to just dilute it and still get readings.

It's a problem, though, if you have a sample that's not really pure.

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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: micro]
    #2167258 - 12/07/03 08:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

An acetic acid extraction extracts pretty much all tryptamines (and more) from the mushroom...so that would leave me with an indistinguishable mixture of componenets....
I?m not sure if this would be of any use for the quantitative Psilocybin/Psilocin determination.

Just to see if I understood it right: You would go with the (diluted) extract directly into a spectrophotometer and then read the absorption at 260 nm?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2167315 - 12/07/03 09:01 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I'd have to look up the peaks, but yeah. You'd have a mix of stuff, but if you could get a good mean the results are o.k.

Mushrooms don't produce too many tryptamines, but the extract will have pretty much any amine compound extracted, too. The majority should be psilocybin, though, so if there is any somewhat substantial increase in one specific substrate it should show on the numbers.

I have some doubts that different substrates lead to any substantial increases, though.

Oh, to clarify -- no, I would probably do TLC, or something, but if you are looking for a quick and dirty way to do things, that would be enough, unless we're talking changes < 10% or whatever.

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Edited by micro (12/07/03 09:03 PM)


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2171171 - 12/11/03 03:41 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
Only a couple of casings fruited. So I won?t be able to use this batch for much.

I will repeat the experiment on a later time.




which ones did fruit?


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: Anno]
    #2171177 - 12/11/03 03:49 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #2171303 - 12/11/03 05:02 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

kthbye.


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    #2171474 - 12/11/03 08:57 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #2171554 - 12/11/03 09:51 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

kthbye = Okay, thank you, goodbye


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    #2171568 - 12/11/03 10:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Alien]
    #2171603 - 12/11/03 10:48 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Alien, the quinoa jars colonized good and fast, but like most of other jars they were overincubated and they didn?t fruit.
If I?m ever going to repeat this test, I?ll be sure to include the quinoa again.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2183712 - 12/16/03 09:25 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
Alien, the quinoa jars colonized good and fast, but like most of other jars they  were overincubated and they didn?t fruit.
If I?m ever going to repeat this test, I?ll be sure to include the quinoa again.




Does overincubating cause problems like few to no fruit?  That may answer a problem a foaf had!  :wink:

Peace,
-TekNut-


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: TekNut]
    #2184086 - 12/17/03 12:04 AM (17 years, 2 months ago)

You should still be able to get it to fruit, unless it's so old it's turning mushy or yellow because of an excess of waste products.

Usually if you overincubate and there is even a small amount of light your stuff will pin. It's good for a pretty long time, but if it's fully colonized for more than a month it may be dying....

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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: micro]
    #2185675 - 12/17/03 06:00 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

Indeed. I was able to transfer old mycelium but not fruit it.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2188696 - 12/18/03 09:58 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

has anyone tried a combination of these substrates?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2196641 - 12/22/03 10:54 PM (17 years, 2 months ago)

I realize that this thread is getting a bit lengthy, but I saw this on pubmed.
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed)
Query: psilocybin. Interesting that they looked at cap/stem potency differences.

------------------------------------------------------
Morphological and chemical analysis of magic mushrooms in Japan.

Tsujikawa K, Kanamori T, Iwata Y, Ohmae Y, Sugita R, Inoue H, Kishi T.

National Research Institute of Police Science, 6-3-1 Kashiwanoha, Kashiwa, 277-0882, Chiba, Japan

Morphological and toxicological analyses were performed on hallucinogenic mushrooms that are currently circulated in Japan. Scanning electron microscope (SEM) indicated a three-dimensional microstructures in the mushrooms. The complementary use of SEM with an optical microscope was effective for observing characteristic tissues, such as basidiomycetes, spores, cystidia and basidia. Hallucinogenic alkaloids were extracted with methanol and determined by high performance liquid chromatography (HPLC) with a UV detector set at 220nm. The psilocin/psilocybin contents in Psilocybe cubensis were in the range of 0.14-0.42%/0.37-1.30% in the whole mushroom (0.17-0.78%/0.44-1.35% in the cap and 0.09-0.30%/0.05-1.27% in the stem), respectively. The hallucinogenic alkaloids in Copelandia were 0.43-0.76%/0.08-0.22% in the whole mushroom (0.64-0.74%/0.02-0.22% in the cap and 0.31-0.78%/0.01-0.39% in the stem). It thus appears that P. cubensis is psilocybin-rich, whereas Copelandia is psilocin-rich.


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InvisibleTHEBOSS
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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycophage]
    #2299656 - 02/04/04 06:35 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Bump..................


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: THEBOSS]
    #2299667 - 02/04/04 06:50 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

No need to bump this really.

"Only a couple of casings fruited. So I won?t be able to use this batch for much.
I will repeat the experiment at a later time. "


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2302325 - 02/04/04 09:17 PM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Where abouts are you in the process Anno?

I just received a shipment of yet another 4kgs of Whey Protein as per my extensive consumption requirements so I would be prepared to test it. Unfortunately though whey protein is traditionally distributed with a: sugars, or b: artificial sweeteners. I have used pure whey (isolate) before though, atleast it was unflavoured but still had approximately 94% purity, which probably means that something artifical was added to preserve it.

Of course it is likely that after a few days the mycellium would win the battle.

Also, whey is an interesting substance in that there are many grades of it, for instance you can obtain massive quantities of lower purity whey which is considered "not fit for human consumption".

Anyway, any ideas on how much should be supplemented per say.. 1/2 pint? I am not sure about using my current protein, it is fairly supplemented by sweeteners and whatnot. I may obtain some unflavouted pure stuff. I would imagine storing the protein in the fridge for a few days ought to break down the sugars though.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: utopianglory]
    #2303622 - 02/05/04 03:55 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

>Where abouts are you in the process Anno?

No where, as I said, I will repeat the experiment at a later time. This time hasn?t come yet.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2303808 - 02/05/04 06:36 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Sorry, I certainly did not read that last comment you made correctly.


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Post deleted by Administrator [Re: utopianglory]
    #2304103 - 02/05/04 11:09 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)



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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: OldSpice]
    #2311039 - 02/07/04 07:35 AM (17 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Alounacara said:
Utopian you gotta realize that doing that is a lot of work...I know i wouldnt have enough patience to do it




?

where did i portray the fact that I thought this was little work? :smile:


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2320644 - 02/10/04 08:51 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
Only a couple of casings fruited. So I won?t be able to use this batch for much.

I will repeat the experiment on a later time.



jeez, over 9,000 page views for nothing ?
that blows.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Hippie3]
    #2320660 - 02/10/04 09:28 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Not every experiment is a success, I am sure you know that from your own experience.

Should I delete this thread?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Anno]
    #2320664 - 02/10/04 09:33 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

no, of course not.
but hey,
maybe tagging it as a failed experiment could save folks the time of wading thru 10 pages of posts.
can you edit the thread name to reflect that ?


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Hippie3]
    #2320666 - 02/10/04 09:37 AM (17 years, 28 days ago)

Good idea, done.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: Hippie3]
    #2323213 - 02/11/04 06:30 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

I told Anno so in the beginning of the experiment: the classic recipe of PF Substrate was the outcome of a long long series of experiments like this. Now just accept the truth: nothing beats BRF&vermiculite for invitro cubes! There is no use in repeating the same dull substrate comparisions every few years!

Yachaj


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycophreak]
    #2323275 - 02/11/04 07:42 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

>the classic recipe of PF Substrate was the outcome of a long long series of
>experiments like this.

Are you sure? PF made a comparative substrate test and he tested fruits in a laboratory for the psilocybin and psilocin content? Can you link me to those results? I am sure I am not the only one interested.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycophreak]
    #2323286 - 02/11/04 07:51 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

mycophreak said:
I told Anno so in the beginning of the experiment: the classic recipe of PF Substrate was the outcome of a long long series of experiments like this. Now just accept the truth: nothing beats BRF&vermiculite for invitro cubes! There is no use in repeating the same dull substrate comparisions every few years!

Yachaj




I agree. It would be a shame to attempt anything new and maybe come up with something like this invitro. By the way, these jars contain neither brf, nor vermiculite.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #2323289 - 02/11/04 07:54 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

>It would be a shame to attempt anything new
:wink:

In Yachaj?s world this seems to be the case.


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Re: Multi Substrate Test [Re: mycophreak]
    #2323387 - 02/11/04 09:30 AM (17 years, 27 days ago)

Quote:

nothing beats BRF&vermiculite for invitro cubes!



things may be changing on that score.
rodger's coffee/grain invitro may be the
wave of the future.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation >> Mushroom Cultivation Archive >> Substrates

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