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InvisibleCosmicKramer
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Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it?
    #17296210 - 11/28/12 10:16 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have been reading the forum for a month and have read Psylocibin Mushroom Handbook by Nicholas.  In his BRF tek, you forgo the metal lids and simply use two layers of foil sealed with the metal band.  After removing the top foil layer and inoculating through the second you replace the top foil and the band.  I am concerned after reading that this may not allow for enough gas exchange?  I have a half inch of dry verm on top so I am thinking I will only leave the second foil layer on with the needle holes and replace the band?  No tape.  Any suggestions?

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Invisiblecreekfreek
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: CosmicKramer]
    #17296217 - 11/28/12 10:18 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Use real lids and make 4 1/4 inch holes in them... once you have nocced them up, use painters tape or micro pore tape to seal them, that will allow enough FAE in the jars and you will not have to worry about contams as much.
Dont skimp on your grow, it only invites problems

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InvisibleCosmicKramer
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: creekfreek]
    #17296250 - 11/28/12 10:32 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Really not trying to skimp, that is what the tek I read called for.  If the foil is intact with four holes, what is the difference between that and a metal lid with four holes?

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OfflineSillyputty67

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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: CosmicKramer]
    #17296272 - 11/28/12 10:37 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I suspect you are reading old info. You want to use a Synthetic Filter disk, or some suit tyvek on the top of that. Or Micropore tape as previously mentioned. Just aluminum foil lets contamination through. The holes on the filter disk is .5 micron. I use a self healing syringe port, and synthetic filter disks on my lids. There are many ways to make lids on this forum, but aluminum foil is not enough. I started that way, and it lead to contamination. You should watch the "lets grow mushrooms" video series.


--------------------
1) Everything I ever posted or say is a lie.

Edited by Sillyputty67 (11/28/12 10:38 AM)

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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #17296293 - 11/28/12 10:45 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Next time use lids as stated above. The foil should work. Don't use a rubber band there will be enough gas exchange from under the foil. Make sure not to tip the jar at all.


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InvisibleCosmicKramer
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #17296331 - 11/28/12 10:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

I have watched it, (reading, watching, etc, for a month). Foil the thickness of 1.0mm is impermeable to oxygen and the heavy duty foil I am using is 0.9mm.  So you may be right that I could get contams but I have had these jars ready for a few weeks waiting on my supplies and nothing is growing.  I have enough spores that I am going to try it and see how it goes.  If needed, I still have the jar lids for the next round.

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InvisibleDynGBreeD
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: creekfreek]
    #17296334 - 11/28/12 10:58 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

creekfreek said:
1/4 inch holes in them...




That is ridiculously to large... The holes need only be large enough
to allow the Syringe to pass through. There is a such thing as to much
GE. And you do NOT want FAE for colonizing substrates.

Foil does work, but its hard as hell not to rip it while Inoculating.
Your vermiculite barrier should be ok against contaminants. Just don't
handle your jars often or tip them.

Edited by DynGBreeD (11/28/12 11:06 AM)

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OfflineBjJiggles
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: Sillyputty67]
    #17296369 - 11/28/12 11:07 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Jesus Christ idk where to start, lots of bad info in this thread...

1. Make 4 holes just big enough for the needle, 1/4 is way to big.
Quote:

malicom said:
I suspect you are reading old info. You want to use a Synthetic Filter disk, or some suit tyvek on the top of that. Or Micropore tape as previously mentioned. Just aluminum foil lets contamination through. The holes on the filter disk is .5 micron. I use a self healing syringe port, and synthetic filter disks on my lids. There are many ways to make lids on this forum, but aluminum foil is not enough. I started that way, and it lead to contamination. You should watch the "lets grow mushrooms" video series.




2. ^^^ I suspect your confusing PF TEK with grain jars.... You do not need any SFD or tyvek for PF Tek..

3. You can use aluminum foil if you want, just make the holes really small and don't rip them bigger when you insert the needle...

4. The dry verm layer on top of your substrate will be fine to keep contams from getting to ur substrate that's why you don't even cover the holes with anything after inoculation...

This is PF-Tek people, it's simple, don't make it harder than it has to be, and quit spreading misinformation.


--------------------

Alan Rockefeller said:No!  Do not feed the type collection of a new species to animals!

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Offlineshroomsisay
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: BjJiggles]
    #17296441 - 11/28/12 11:27 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BjJiggles said:
Jesus Christ idk where to start, lots of bad info in this thread...

1. Make 4 holes just big enough for the needle, 1/4 is way to big.
Quote:

malicom said:
I suspect you are reading old info. You want to use a Synthetic Filter disk, or some suit tyvek on the top of that. Or Micropore tape as previously mentioned. Just aluminum foil lets contamination through. The holes on the filter disk is .5 micron. I use a self healing syringe port, and synthetic filter disks on my lids. There are many ways to make lids on this forum, but aluminum foil is not enough. I started that way, and it lead to contamination. You should watch the "lets grow mushrooms" video series.




2. ^^^ I suspect your confusing PF TEK with grain jars.... You do not need any SFD or tyvek for PF Tek..

3. You can use aluminum foil if you want, just make the holes really small and don't rip them bigger when you insert the needle...

4. The dry verm layer on top of your substrate will be fine to keep contams from getting to ur substrate that's why you don't even cover the holes with anything after inoculation...

This is PF-Tek people, it's simple, don't make it harder than it has to be, and quit spreading misinformation.




Thanks I was going to say exactly what you said. You saved me some typing


--------------------
I thought I was wrong once but I was mistaken.

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OfflineBjJiggles
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: shroomsisay]
    #17296459 - 11/28/12 11:31 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Lol, like the blind leading the blind up in here...


--------------------

Alan Rockefeller said:No!  Do not feed the type collection of a new species to animals!

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Invisiblecreekfreek
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: DynGBreeD]
    #17296471 - 11/28/12 11:35 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DynGBreeD said:
Quote:

creekfreek said:
1/4 inch holes in them...




That is ridiculously to large... The holes need only be large enough
to allow the Syringe to pass through. There is a such thing as to much
GE. And you do NOT want FAE for colonizing substrates.

Foil does work, but its hard as hell not to rip it while Inoculating.
Your vermiculite barrier should be ok against contaminants. Just don't
handle your jars often or tip them.



Your right... my bad.... 1/8 inch holes I believe is what RR suggests.

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OfflineBjJiggles
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: creekfreek]
    #17296479 - 11/28/12 11:38 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

:wink:


--------------------

Alan Rockefeller said:No!  Do not feed the type collection of a new species to animals!

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InvisibleDoc_D
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: DynGBreeD] * 1
    #17296501 - 11/28/12 11:42 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DynGBreeD said:
Quote:

creekfreek said:
1/4 inch holes in them...




That is ridiculously to large... The holes need only be large enough
to allow the Syringe to pass through. There is a such thing as to much
GE. And you do NOT want FAE for colonizing substrates.

Foil does work, but its hard as hell not to rip it while Inoculating.
Your vermiculite barrier should be ok against contaminants. Just don't
handle your jars often or tip them.



One way around the foil ripping when inoculating is to put a small strip of tape on the foil lid before inoculation. I used micropore as it was lying around but any kind of tape would suffice, then simply insert needle through the tape.


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Offlineskippydude
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: creekfreek]
    #17296540 - 11/28/12 11:52 AM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

creekfreek said:
Quote:

DynGBreeD said:
Quote:

creekfreek said:
1/4 inch holes in them...




That is ridiculously to large... The holes need only be large enough
to allow the Syringe to pass through. There is a such thing as to much
GE. And you do NOT want FAE for colonizing substrates.

Foil does work, but its hard as hell not to rip it while Inoculating.
Your vermiculite barrier should be ok against contaminants. Just don't
handle your jars often or tip them.



Your right... my bad.... 1/8 inch holes I believe is what RR suggests.




Just got the RR video.
RogerRabbit is using metal lids, 4x1/8" holes, micro pore tape & the foil is only there to keep water out when sterilizing.

The only thing on the video I saw with just foil only, was when he pasteurizes horse poo.

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OfflineBjJiggles
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: skippydude]
    #17296590 - 11/28/12 12:00 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Because that is the way anyone with lids should do it, but if you don't have any lids, you can use foil..

You can even use cups with foil as lids if they are tapered properly. He just shows you the recommended way of doing it, other variations of that Tek let you know there are safe alternatives, you just have to have a little common sense...

And even RR will tell you not to leave any tape of the holes during colonization, it's unnecessary with the dry verm layer... They need some GE...


--------------------

Alan Rockefeller said:No!  Do not feed the type collection of a new species to animals!

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InvisibleDynGBreeD
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: BjJiggles]
    #17296616 - 11/28/12 12:05 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

BjJiggles said:
And even RR will tell you not to leave any tape of the holes during colonization, it's unnecessary with the dry verm layer... They need some GE...




Please quote where he says that. I could understand that IF someone hadn't
used the recommended micropore tape. But tape can be left on if so, or even
inoculated through. Though it's not needed to with a vermiculite barrier, I
know for a fact it doesn't hinder GE. Because I never remove the tape.

You could also substitute the Vermiculite by using the Micropore tape as your
barrier...

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
It's normal for it to be damp under the foil.  Remove the foil when you remove the jars from the PC or kettle, and save it for the next batch of jars.  Don't remove the micropore tape.  Wipe it with alcohol and inject right through it.  Then, cover the wound with a fresh piece.
RR




Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
The tape is added insurance against water getting in through the holes during sterilization.  If you use micropore tape, you can leave it on and inoculate right through it.  If you use non-breathable tape, remove it at inoculation.
RR




And countless more...


--------------------

Edited by DynGBreeD (11/28/12 12:10 PM)

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OfflineBjJiggles
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: DynGBreeD]
    #17296686 - 11/28/12 12:18 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Yes normal tape will restrict most all GE, micropore tape will restrict some beneficial GE if you have a dry verm layer as well, I suppose it would be needed if you didn't have a dry verm layer, but why would you not have one? It's tried and tested that the dry verm layer is sufficient..

And yes, if you inoculate through the tape it leaves a hole the size of your needle, so you don't have to take it off then... The first 4 or 5 time I did PFtek I put micropore tape on and all jars colonized far slower than it did without it in the same conditions.. The point is that the dry verm layer is plenty and there really isn't a good reason to deviate from that...

He says multiple times that micropore tape is optional and if you use it just inject through it(which will leave a need sized hole) he also says that IF he does not use a dry verm layer he will place it on there after inoculation.... There is absolutely no reason for both..

There are multiple ways to use the PF-Tek successfully and everybody has their own opinion, and RR's words are not the Gospel... I strongly suggest trying different stuff and find out what works best for you... It's a simple tek and not hard to have a successful result.


--------------------

Alan Rockefeller said:No!  Do not feed the type collection of a new species to animals!

Edited by BjJiggles (11/28/12 12:24 PM)

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InvisibleDynGBreeD
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: DynGBreeD]
    #17296732 - 11/28/12 12:29 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Your "test" isn't viable. Considering you would need a strong
isolate. And identical jar conditions.


If everyone spoke from experience instead of mimicking every word someone else
says, then there would be a lot less misinformation spread.

I never said the tape wasn't optional. You said your hero RR says TO REMOVE
the tape. And that isn't true.

EDIT: I'm not arguing, I'll agree to disagree. I've already been snitched
on once for "flamming"


--------------------

Edited by DynGBreeD (11/28/12 12:39 PM)

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InvisibleCosmicKramer
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: DynGBreeD]
    #17296855 - 11/28/12 12:46 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Just finished noc...it is a bitch with the foil...I will use the lids next time.  The first few jars tore too much so I lightly replaced the top layer of un-punctured foil.  The rest have very small holes.  Did not replace the bands.  I will report what happened but I do think the lids would be much easier....time to get out the drill, with the 1/8 bit!

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OfflineBjJiggles
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Re: Did not use metal lids, only foil, should I remove it? [Re: CosmicKramer]
    #17296889 - 11/28/12 12:53 PM (12 years, 1 month ago)

Lol, I agree the test isn't viable but I think it's more than coincidence to get nearly identical growth patterns with the same strain from the same print using tape and completely different growth patterns without...

And I totally agree with you about the mimicking others statements, hence why I advised everyone to try for themselves and stated that RR's word is not the gospel... I only know what has worked best for me in my situations....

And I too hate snitches :wink:

And by the time I was able to achieve isolated strains I had long been done using the PF-Tek... I suggest everyone move up when they get comfortable, PF-Tek is just an intro IMO, I really don't even like talking about it anymore..


--------------------

Alan Rockefeller said:No!  Do not feed the type collection of a new species to animals!

Edited by BjJiggles (11/28/12 12:56 PM)

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