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Anonymous #1
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Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research?
#17292630 - 11/27/12 07:00 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I will like to know can the cops charge you with anything if you are an advent mycologist who has mycology supplies [Such as substrate materials, lab coat, lab equipment, jars, natural edible mycelium/spores, etc.] as well as psilocybin spores for purely studying [But no psilocybin mycelium or mushrooms]?
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ssblind



Registered: 04/10/11
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #1]
#17292660 - 11/27/12 07:05 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
In the United States, possession of psilocybin-containing mushrooms is illegal because they contain the Schedule I drugs psilocin and psilocybin. Spores, however, which do not contain psychoactive chemicals, are only explicitly illegal in Georgia, Idaho and California. Additionally; spores are illegal to import, buy, sell, trade, or give away in California if intended to be cultivated.[29] In the rest of the country, it is not illegal to just sell the spores, but selling them with the purpose of producing hallucinogenic mushrooms is illegal.[30][31] The Florida Supreme Court in 1978 ruled that possession of wild psilocybin mushrooms is not illegal;[32] however, whether knowingly gathering wild psilocybin mushrooms for later use is illegal was not addressed in the decision.[33] In all states, except New Mexico, growing psilocybin-containing mushrooms from spores is considered manufacture of a controlled substance.[32] In New Mexico, on 15 June 2005, the New Mexico appeals court ruled that growing psilocybin mushrooms for personal use is not manufacture of a controlled substance
here is the law for the USA,assuming that is where you are from.I don't think mycology equipment itself is illegal,but if it is found in the vicinity of illegal mushrooms they may charge you for it.
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: ssblind]
#17292791 - 11/27/12 07:24 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Define in the vicinity of illegal mushrooms? Why would I grow illegal mushrooms? I simply have the legal spores for my own research, while having mycology equipment on the side for edible growth and other legal mycology practices...? So how will they be able to indite me? I have no intention of growing illegal spores even if given the chance!
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #1]
#17292808 - 11/27/12 07:26 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I also have no illegal mycelium or mushrooms... Just legal psilocybin spores for research and mycology equipment for edibles. So what other charges can they charge me for?
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #1] 1
#17292828 - 11/27/12 07:28 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yes.They can indict you for anything. They usually get plea deal convictions as a result of frivolous prosecutions too. To prove psilocybin spores they need to germinate and grow them to mycelium. Once in a syringe microscopy is a joke. From a print they can tell they're cubes.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Anonymous #1
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Ellis Dee]
#17292864 - 11/27/12 07:34 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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So you are saying that the police can indite me just for having psilocybin spores, but no psilocybin mycelium or mushrooms and mycology equipment? What will they charge me for? I had no intent to cultivate them?
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Ellis Dee
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #1] 1
#17293019 - 11/27/12 07:54 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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They can do whatever they want. The US justice system is designed to mass incarcerate as many people as possible. Without growing supplies they will have trouble making a conspiracy charge at trial unless you talked about it or they find info in your internet search history on on your computer but you will be so scared that you'll accept the butt raping and go on probation for a crime you didn't even commit. It happens a lot. Plea bargains made out of fear are the pigs bread and butter.
-------------------- "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Alan Rockefeller
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #1]
#17294152 - 11/27/12 10:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous said: So you are saying that the police can indite me just for having psilocybin spores
Only if you intend to grow them. They are legal to have around except in Idaho and Georgia.
It would be best if they weren't labeled so they wouldn't get the wrong idea if they found your edibles setup too. But those kind of charges are very rare unless you admit to wanting to grow them.
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Anonymous #2
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
#17294808 - 11/28/12 12:34 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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A lot of police and prosecutors would probably take the position that possession of them shows intent to grow them. It's a quasi-legal item in my opinion. That said I have quite a few prints labeled as what they are and I'm not worried about it.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #2]
#17297625 - 11/28/12 02:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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First of all, cops can't indict or charge anyone with anything. They can arrest and accuse but its up to the d.a. or equivalent to actually press charges and sometimes they don't.
Conspiracy is a possible charge but they need more than spores and equipment, imo. If they can get a statement from the suspect, that will do the job or if a witness swears the suspect told them he was going to grow illegal 'shrooms, they might charge with conspiracy.
Its like if someone has a gun and a grudge against someone. That is not enough for conspiracy to murder, it would take more than that.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #1] 1
#17297867 - 11/28/12 03:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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You can't be charged with conspiracy because a conspiracy requires at least two people to agree to commit a crime...
You can be charged with attempt to manufacture a controlled substance. At trial, they have to prove:
1. Intent to manufacture a controlled substance, and 2. You took a "substantial step" in the process of manufacturing the substance
Purchasing spores is probably plenty to constitute a "substantial step"...so it boils down to how they're going to prove intent. I'd say that with a fully decked out lab capable of sterilizing, innoculating, germinating, and fruiting shrooms, intent is proven.
Of course, you can always present a rebuttal case that shows your intent to be something different. If you're willing to take the stand and can do so convincingly, you could easily explain all of the different equipment and how you intended to use the spores....It'd be up to the jury to decide.
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johnm214


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Anonymous #1]
#17297868 - 11/28/12 03:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Anonymous said: I will like to know can the cops charge you with anything if you are an advent mycologist who has mycology supplies [Such as substrate materials, lab coat, lab equipment, jars, natural edible mycelium/spores, etc.] as well as psilocybin spores for purely studying [But no psilocybin mycelium or mushrooms]?
Of course they can- possesion of those items doesn't grant you immunity, and they can idict you without finding you possessing anything at all.
Often its the word of other people and especially the defendant themselves that becomes the big piece of evidence- no physical evidence required (there's people sentenced to death without any physical evidence).
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: johnm214]
#17297880 - 11/28/12 03:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: (there's people sentenced to death without any physical evidence).
Cite an example please.
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johnm214


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil] 3
#17297951 - 11/28/12 03:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Yeah, I can't. That was a stupid thing to say.
There's people sentenced to death without physical evidence establishing their guilt for the crime.
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: johnm214]
#17297970 - 11/28/12 03:38 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fair enough.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17298272 - 11/28/12 04:23 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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(enlil) >You can't be charged with conspiracy because a conspiracy requires at least two people to agree to commit a crime...
(me) >>if a witness swears the suspect told them he was going to grow illegal 'shrooms, they might charge with conspiracy
So we have the suspect and a witness with whom he divulged his plans and it can be assumed tried to get to cooperate in some way. Merely keeping quiet about the plans is misprison of a crime so asking for silence would be asking for participation. We also have the source of the spores though thats a long shot. Other than that, agreed it would just be attempt to manufacture but for that, as you pointed out, it takes a substantial step toward carrying it out. Conspiracy can be a conversation with possession of lab equipment being the step forward.
I really doubt there would be any charges without at least germinating the spores.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17298291 - 11/28/12 04:25 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Conspiracy requires more than someone else knowing about it. It requires an agreement for at least two people to engage in the illegal conduct...whatever that may be. It isn't enough just to tell someone and then ask them not to say anything. An agreement not to discuss it isn't conspiracy.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17298426 - 11/28/12 04:47 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I cite 18 USC § 4 - Misprision of felony
However its an arguable point. I doubt anyone has actually been prosecuted for keeping quiet but we are talking mostly theory here.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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johnm214


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17298439 - 11/28/12 04:49 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: I cite 18 USC § 4 - Misprision of felony
However its an arguable point. I doubt anyone has actually been prosecuted for keeping quiet but we are talking mostly theory here.
?
How does that statute establish that Enlil's wrong on what makes a conspiracy? I'm sure if you speed in your car while telling your friend of your intention they can also arrest you for that- still doesn't make it a conspiracy. (*shift's goalposts back to original position*)
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: johnm214]
#17298753 - 11/28/12 05:37 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I didn't say enlil was wrong, i showed where merely being the recipient of information and keeping quiet might be a crime. Therefore, they both could be said to be committing a crime together though thats a little far fetched, i'll admit.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17298762 - 11/28/12 05:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: I cite 18 USC § 4 - Misprision of felony
However its an arguable point. I doubt anyone has actually been prosecuted for keeping quiet but we are talking mostly theory here.
First, that's not conspiracy..
Second, to be convicted of misprison of felony, one must ACTIVELY conceal a crime...not just refuse to report it. Silence alone is not enough.
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Rapozk
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17299354 - 11/28/12 07:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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If you are in Sweden, that is all they need to search your house.
But they will get hell for doing so if they don't find anything.
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Rapozk] 1
#17299400 - 11/28/12 07:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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That's why Sweden sucks
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17299558 - 11/28/12 07:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I quote:
Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.
The word "conceals" might include an action to further concealment or could mean passively concealing but the clarifying phrase "...does not as soon as possible make known..." seems to indicate a positive obligation to report what one knows about a felony.
And if they agree to further this misprisionment, sounds like a conspiracy there.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17299766 - 11/28/12 08:13 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Your interpretation, while logical, is not the way the law is interpreted. Here is a well-written article about it:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Misprision+of+felony
In relevant part: "Under the federal statute, the prosecution must prove the following elements to obtain a misprision of felony conviction: (1) another person actually committed a felony; (2) the defendant knew that the felony was committed; (3) the defendant did not notify any law enforcement or judicial officer; and (4) the defendant took affirmative steps to conceal the felony."
The fourth element is the key here.
If two people agree to take affirmative steps to conceal a felony, that is also a conspiracy to commit misprisonment...but again...silence alone is not enough...and agreeing to be silent isn't a conspiracy.
You're not alone here, stoney...Conspiracy, solicitation, accomplice liability, attempt, and accessory liability are the most confused doctrines in criminal law. It takes law students and lawyers quite a while to be able to draw clear lines between these things...
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johnm214


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17300021 - 11/28/12 08:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Under the US Code, drug conspiracies don't even need an affirmative step, just agreement (I forget what's covered, but certainly trafficking and manufacture). The drug war, knocking down barriers to get more people more time in more jails at more expense 
Enlil: what is the fifth amendment implication of statutes that compell disclosure of crimes?
In general, I don't talk to police because I don't trust them and can't know in most cases whether I'm going to be fucked with or if I'm helping hurt someone else. Say someone comes over to my house and I find out they have some pills in their pocket (felony). I tell them to leave. Would it be constitutional to convict me on that basis?
Despite not committing a crime, I would have a legitimate fear of getting fucked with by the police, and wouldn't want to hurt the guy who had the pills even though I don't want him on my property.
Honestly, I can completely understand people who find people dead and don't tell the police, especially if they know them. I doubt I'd do that, but its understandable if you have any experience with cops or read anything about false confessions. (I know what I think is still the only guy to argue his way off death row pro se (aquited at retrial), though his was just a jailhouse snitch).
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Haffenreffer
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17300299 - 11/28/12 09:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Would a spore print be significantly different than a syringe in the case of an attempt to manufacture? Considering spore prints are at least a small bit harder to create mushrooms from than a pre-prepared syringe.
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: johnm214]
#17301397 - 11/29/12 04:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
johnm214 said: Under the US Code, drug conspiracies don't even need an affirmative step, just agreement (I forget what's covered, but certainly trafficking and manufacture).
The article I linked was about misprison...not conspiracy.
For conspiracy, most states require agreement and an "overt act" in furtherance...the federal statute does not.Quote:
Enlil: what is the fifth amendment implication of statutes that compell disclosure of crimes?
The 5th's applicability begins and ends when the disclosure would also implicate the one disclosing. There is no general "right to remain silent" under the 5th...only a right to remail silent with respect to possibly incriminating oneself.Quote:
In general, I don't talk to police because I don't trust them and can't know in most cases whether I'm going to be fucked with or if I'm helping hurt someone else. Say someone comes over to my house and I find out they have some pills in their pocket (felony). I tell them to leave. Would it be constitutional to convict me on that basis?
Assuming that there is some criminal statute requiring you to report it to the police, it would probably be Constitutional. There are no laws in the U.S. giving people a general duty to report crimes, so you couldn't be convicted of it at this point. If such a law is ever passed, it will likely be tested by the Court...then we'll know for sure.
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Haffenreffer]
#17301400 - 11/29/12 04:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Haffenreffer said: Would a spore print be significantly different than a syringe in the case of an attempt to manufacture? Considering spore prints are at least a small bit harder to create mushrooms from than a pre-prepared syringe.
It would be significantly different at trial, yes. A defense can much more easily argue a purpose other than growing with a print....probably without even putting the defendant on the stand.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17301753 - 11/29/12 07:49 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I know certain councilors are required to report certain planned crimes they find out about. In the previous example in which the guy with the spores discusses his plans, he may also discuss the possibility of defending himself from discovery or ripoffs, raising the possibility of violence.
I read about a case where a woman was with a man who was stopped for a traffic offense. She knew he was a felon in possession of a gun but did not tell the cop. She was charged with misprision even though she took no positive steps to conceal the crime.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17301766 - 11/29/12 07:52 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cite your source. The truth is that misprison is very rarely charged. A total of 61 prosecutions and 56 convictions have occurred in this country this year.
http://www.trac.syr.edu/laws/18USC4.html
There are 677 federal district judges...that means that a judge is likely to see one misprison case every 11 years.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17301905 - 11/29/12 08:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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At least we have established that it does happen even if rarely. Here is a recent case:
http://www.tampabaycriminallawyerblog.com/2012/09/cortnee-brantley-to-face-retrial-on-federal-charge-in-october.html
September 4, 2012 Cortnee Brantley to Face Retrial on Federal Charge in October
By Pearlman & Tetreault, P.A.
Cortnee Brantley will face another jury trial in October after her failed motion to have her case tried by a federal judge.
Brantley was previously on trial for a case involving her boyfriend Dontae Morris murdering Tampa Police Department officers Jeffrey Curtis and David Kocab during a traffic stop. Brantley was present during the stop, and was charged with misprision of a felony when she did not report to authorities that her boyfriend was a felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition. Further, Brantley did not report the shootings to authorities and refused to name the shooter when she was questioned.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17301968 - 11/29/12 08:50 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: At least we have established that it does happen even if rarely.
No one said it didn't...but it always requires proving that the defendant took an affirmative step.Quote:
Here is a recent case:
http://www.tampabaycriminallawyerblog.com/2012/09/cortnee-brantley-to-face-retrial-on-federal-charge-in-october.html
September 4, 2012 Cortnee Brantley to Face Retrial on Federal Charge in October
By Pearlman & Tetreault, P.A.
Cortnee Brantley will face another jury trial in October after her failed motion to have her case tried by a federal judge.
Brantley was previously on trial for a case involving her boyfriend Dontae Morris murdering Tampa Police Department officers Jeffrey Curtis and David Kocab during a traffic stop. Brantley was present during the stop, and was charged with misprision of a felony when she did not report to authorities that her boyfriend was a felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition. Further, Brantley did not report the shootings to authorities and refused to name the shooter when she was questioned.
The article you linked has a video...in that video, a prosecutor makes it clear that they have to prove active concealment...You can skip to 1:20 if you want.
P.S. You were wrong about the facts. The woman was the driver.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17302070 - 11/29/12 09:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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They were stopped for a traffic offense, i didn't say who was driving. If keeping her mouth shut was not a crime then why is she on trial? Being brought to trial is a punishment all by itself
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17302131 - 11/29/12 09:32 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: They were stopped for a traffic offense, i didn't say who was driving.
You said "woman was with a man who was stopped for a traffic offense". That clearly implies that the man was driving and was stopped.
Quote:
If keeping her mouth shut was not a crime then why is she on trial?
First, trials are about determining whether or not someone committed a crime...and so far, she hasn't been convicted of anything.
Secondly, we don't know all of the facts of the case. I haven't read a trial transcript, and I wasn't a witness. If you have further information that supports the notion that she did no more than "keep[] her mouth shut", then I'm all eyes.
Finally, lets keep this in context...we're discussing an ATTEMPT to convict someone of an obscure law because the prosecutor could not find anything else to charge her with. This is a product of public outcry, and it is not indicative of the normal state of affairs.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17302240 - 11/29/12 10:00 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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OK, we will stipulate that its not the normal course of affairs. But it does happen.
Being put on trial for a felony is a punishment all by itself. They are required to declare themselves indigent or at least not having money for a lawyer before getting a pd and may owe costs for that. It stays on the record even if acquitted which is not a sure thing. A wrongful conviction will likely take a paid lawyer to overturn if it ever is. Bond or being held before trial, going through the wringer, it does not sound to me like there is no danger in keeping one's mouth shut.
If you talk, you can be charged. If you don't talk, sometimes that is a crime. If she is convicted then what? I happen to think she deserves some punishment given the facts but its a crappy law.
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17302257 - 11/29/12 10:03 AM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Stonehenge said: If you don't talk, sometimes that is a crime.
Again, this is the part that is untrue...Not reporting a crime is not a crime...I've said this several times, I've linked a source...I even used YOUR source to prove this...
Silence, in itself, is not a crime...period.
I agree with you that people are put through great hardship before ever being proven guilty. I agree that it sucks, and I wish there was a way to improve the system so that it happens less often or not at all...but none of that changes the basic fact stated above.
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Stonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17302861 - 11/29/12 12:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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>Silence, in itself, is not a crime...period.
That gal might argue with you about that. And if she is convicted will that change your view? Seems like if the authorities say its a crime, it is. If she committed no crime why wasn't the case thrown out? Why does it have to go to a jury?
-------------------- “A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835) Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
#17302881 - 11/29/12 12:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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I have no idea if she did more than simply fail to report it. She may very well have taken an affirmative step...I don't know, and you apparently don't either. If you have a source of information to support the notion that she did nothing but stay silent, I'd love to see it.
Without such a source, you're just guessing.
Here is some reading material for you: "This statute has been construed, however, to require both knowledge of a crime and some affirmative act of concealment or participation." Branzburg v. Hayes, 408 U.S. 665 (1972) http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/408/665
"Misprision of a felony “require[s] both knowledge of a crime and some affirmative act of concealment or participation.”" ITANI v. ASHCROFT, 298 F.3d 1213 http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1260583.html
Here is an opinion from the 11th circuit court of appeals about Ms. Brantley's case. The District court dismissed the indictment, and the prosecution appealed. The dismissal was overturned. http://www.justice.gov/usao/flm/press/2012/feb/20120217_Brantley_Opinion.pdf
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Edited by Enlil (11/29/12 12:56 PM)
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johnm214


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
#17303259 - 11/29/12 01:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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Enlil said:
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johnm214 said:
In general, I don't talk to police because I don't trust them and can't know in most cases whether I'm going to be fucked with or if I'm helping hurt someone else. Say someone comes over to my house and I find out they have some pills in their pocket (felony). I tell them to leave. Would it be constitutional to convict me on that basis?
Assuming that there is some criminal statute requiring you to report it to the police, it would probably be Constitutional. There are no laws in the U.S. giving people a general duty to report crimes, so you couldn't be convicted of it at this point. If such a law is ever passed, it will likely be tested by the Court...then we'll know for sure.
Yes, but how do you know whether it risks you criminal prosecution to report the offense? In an actual court you have lawyers and a judge to explain the law to you, but when the law books for a single state can stack four feet high, how do you know what to say or not to say?
Such a law would require someone to come forward to the police, not be compelled under court order with a judge deciding whether such compulsion is legal. (and the way the laws are written, they generally do require active reporting, no matter how the courts 'construe' them- I guess a person of ordinary intelligence can't be expected to be able to understand the laws of his own damn country after all).
Finally, what is the point of such laws? How would they not be covered by conspiracy and obstruction laws? Seems like we have way too many laws that are just used so the prosecutors can always fuck who they want to fuck.
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Enlil
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: johnm214]
#17303325 - 11/29/12 01:55 PM (11 years, 5 months ago) |
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There are no such laws in the U.S., so there's nothing to worry about. The average citizen doesn't know about the 235 year old federal misprison law, so they're not likely to misinterpret it. States don't have such laws...
Someday, someone might pass a law requiring people to rat out everyone...Just like someone passed a law allowing the government to wiretap without a warrant. Eventually, the actual contours of the law would be determined by the courts interpreting the law within the context of the federal and state constitutions. That's how laws are made.
As far as the 5th amendment...the law there is pretty clear. Nonetheless, most people don't know it, just like most don't know most of the laws...We have a populous of people who are sorely misinformed about their rights and duties under the law...and law enforcement has always used that to its advantage.
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