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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17298762 - 11/28/12 05:40 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
I cite 18 USC § 4 - Misprision of felony

However its an arguable point. I doubt anyone has actually been prosecuted for keeping quiet but we are talking mostly theory here.



First, that's not conspiracy..

Second, to be convicted of misprison of felony, one must ACTIVELY conceal a crime...not just refuse to report it.  Silence alone is not enough.


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OfflineRapozk
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17299354 - 11/28/12 07:16 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

If you are in Sweden, that is all they need to search your house.

But they will get hell for doing so if they don't find anything.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Rapozk] * 1
    #17299400 - 11/28/12 07:22 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

That's why Sweden sucks


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17299558 - 11/28/12 07:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I quote:

Whoever, having knowledge of the actual commission of a felony cognizable by a court of the United States, conceals and does not as soon as possible make known the same to some judge or other person in civil or military authority under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

The word "conceals" might include an action to further concealment or could mean passively concealing but the clarifying phrase "...does not as soon as possible make known..." seems to indicate a positive obligation to report what one knows about a felony.

And if they agree to further this misprisionment, sounds like a conspiracy there.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17299766 - 11/28/12 08:13 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Your interpretation, while logical, is not the way the law is interpreted.  Here is a well-written article about it:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Misprision+of+felony

In relevant part:
"Under the federal statute, the prosecution must prove the following elements to obtain a misprision of felony conviction: (1) another person actually committed a felony; (2) the defendant knew that the felony was committed; (3) the defendant did not notify any law enforcement or judicial officer; and (4) the defendant took affirmative steps to conceal the felony."

The fourth element is the key here.

If two people agree to take affirmative steps to conceal a felony, that is also a conspiracy to commit misprisonment...but again...silence alone is not enough...and agreeing to be silent isn't a conspiracy.

You're not alone here, stoney...Conspiracy, solicitation, accomplice liability, attempt, and accessory liability are the most confused doctrines in criminal law.  It takes law students and lawyers quite a while to be able to draw clear lines between these things...


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17300021 - 11/28/12 08:46 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Under the US Code, drug conspiracies don't even need an affirmative step, just agreement (I forget what's covered, but certainly trafficking and manufacture).  The drug war, knocking down barriers to get more people more time in more jails at more expense :thumbup:


Enlil: what is the fifth amendment implication of statutes that compell disclosure of crimes?

In general, I don't talk to police because I don't trust them and can't know in most cases whether I'm going to be fucked with or if I'm helping hurt someone else.  Say someone comes over to my house and I find out they have some pills in their pocket (felony).  I tell them to leave.  Would it be constitutional to convict me on that basis? 

Despite not committing a crime, I would have a legitimate fear of getting fucked with by the police, and wouldn't want to hurt the guy who had the pills even though I don't want him on my property.

Honestly, I can completely understand people who find people dead and don't tell the police, especially if they know them.  I doubt I'd do that, but its understandable if you have any experience with cops or read anything about false confessions.  (I know what I think is still the only guy to argue his way off death row pro se (aquited at retrial), though his was just a jailhouse snitch).

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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17300299 - 11/28/12 09:33 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Would a spore print be significantly different than a syringe in the case of an attempt to manufacture? Considering spore prints are at least a small bit harder to create mushrooms from than a pre-prepared syringe.

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: johnm214]
    #17301397 - 11/29/12 04:51 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

johnm214 said:
Under the US Code, drug conspiracies don't even need an affirmative step, just agreement (I forget what's covered, but certainly trafficking and manufacture).



The article I linked was about misprison...not conspiracy. 

For conspiracy, most states require agreement and an "overt act" in furtherance...the federal statute does not.
Quote:


Enlil: what is the fifth amendment implication of statutes that compell disclosure of crimes?


The 5th's applicability begins and ends when the disclosure would also implicate the one disclosing.  There is no general "right to remain silent" under the 5th...only a right to remail silent with respect to possibly incriminating oneself.
Quote:


In general, I don't talk to police because I don't trust them and can't know in most cases whether I'm going to be fucked with or if I'm helping hurt someone else.  Say someone comes over to my house and I find out they have some pills in their pocket (felony).  I tell them to leave.  Would it be constitutional to convict me on that basis? 


Assuming that there is some criminal statute requiring you to report it to the police, it would probably be Constitutional.  There are no laws in the U.S. giving people a general duty to report crimes, so you couldn't be convicted of it at this point.  If such a law is ever passed, it will likely be tested by the Court...then we'll know for sure.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Haffenreffer]
    #17301400 - 11/29/12 04:53 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Haffenreffer said:
Would a spore print be significantly different than a syringe in the case of an attempt to manufacture? Considering spore prints are at least a small bit harder to create mushrooms from than a pre-prepared syringe.



It would be significantly different at trial, yes.  A defense can much more easily argue a purpose other than growing with a print....probably without even putting the defendant on the stand.


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17301753 - 11/29/12 07:49 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I know certain councilors are required to report certain planned crimes they find out about. In the previous example in which the guy with the spores discusses his plans, he may also discuss the possibility of defending himself from discovery or ripoffs, raising the possibility of violence.

I read about a case where a woman was with a man who was stopped for a traffic offense. She knew he was a felon in possession of a gun but did not tell the cop. She was charged with misprision even though she took no positive steps to conceal the crime.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17301766 - 11/29/12 07:52 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Cite your source.  The truth is that misprison is very rarely charged.  A total of 61 prosecutions and 56 convictions have occurred in this country this year.

http://www.trac.syr.edu/laws/18USC4.html

There are 677 federal district judges...that means that a judge is likely to see one misprison case every 11 years.



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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17301905 - 11/29/12 08:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

At least we have established that it does happen even if rarely. Here is a recent case:

http://www.tampabaycriminallawyerblog.com/2012/09/cortnee-brantley-to-face-retrial-on-federal-charge-in-october.html

September 4, 2012
Cortnee Brantley to Face Retrial on Federal Charge in October

By Pearlman & Tetreault, P.A.



Cortnee Brantley will face another jury trial in October after her failed motion to have her case tried by a federal judge.

Brantley was previously on trial for a case involving her boyfriend Dontae Morris murdering Tampa Police Department officers Jeffrey Curtis and David Kocab during a traffic stop. Brantley was present during the stop, and was charged with misprision of a felony when she did not report to authorities that her boyfriend was a felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition. Further, Brantley did not report the shootings to authorities and refused to name the shooter when she was questioned.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17301968 - 11/29/12 08:50 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
At least we have established that it does happen even if rarely.


No one said it didn't...but it always requires proving that the defendant took an affirmative step.
Quote:

Here is a recent case:

http://www.tampabaycriminallawyerblog.com/2012/09/cortnee-brantley-to-face-retrial-on-federal-charge-in-october.html

September 4, 2012
Cortnee Brantley to Face Retrial on Federal Charge in October

By Pearlman & Tetreault, P.A.



Cortnee Brantley will face another jury trial in October after her failed motion to have her case tried by a federal judge.

Brantley was previously on trial for a case involving her boyfriend Dontae Morris murdering Tampa Police Department officers Jeffrey Curtis and David Kocab during a traffic stop. Brantley was present during the stop, and was charged with misprision of a felony when she did not report to authorities that her boyfriend was a felon in possession of a firearm and ammunition. Further, Brantley did not report the shootings to authorities and refused to name the shooter when she was questioned.



The article you linked has a video...in that video, a prosecutor makes it clear that they have to prove active concealment...You can skip to 1:20 if you want.

P.S.  You were wrong about the facts.  The woman was the driver.


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17302070 - 11/29/12 09:15 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

They were stopped for a traffic offense, i didn't say who was driving. If keeping her mouth shut was not a crime then why is she on trial? Being brought to trial is a punishment all by itself


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17302131 - 11/29/12 09:32 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
They were stopped for a traffic offense, i didn't say who was driving.


You said "woman was with a man who was stopped for a traffic offense".  That clearly implies that the man was driving and was stopped.
Quote:

If keeping her mouth shut was not a crime then why is she on trial?



First, trials are about determining whether or not someone committed a crime...and so far, she hasn't been convicted of anything.

Secondly, we don't know all of the facts of the case.  I haven't read a trial transcript, and I wasn't a witness.  If you have further information that supports the notion that she did no more than "keep[] her mouth shut", then I'm all eyes.

Finally, lets keep this in context...we're discussing an ATTEMPT to convict someone of an obscure law because the prosecutor could not find anything else to charge her with.  This is a product of public outcry, and it is not indicative of the normal state of affairs.


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17302240 - 11/29/12 10:00 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

OK, we will stipulate that its not the normal course of affairs. But it does happen.

Being put on trial for a felony is a punishment all by itself. They are required to declare themselves indigent or at least not having money for a lawyer before getting a pd and may owe costs for that. It stays on the record even if acquitted which is not a sure thing. A wrongful conviction will likely take a paid lawyer to overturn if it ever is. Bond or being held before trial, going through the wringer, it does not sound to me like there is no danger in keeping one's mouth shut.

If you talk, you can be charged. If you don't talk, sometimes that is a crime. If she is convicted then what? I happen to think she deserves some punishment given the facts but its a crappy law.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17302257 - 11/29/12 10:03 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
If you don't talk, sometimes that is a crime.




Again, this is the part that is untrue...Not reporting a crime is not a crime...I've said this several times, I've linked a source...I even used YOUR source to prove this...

Silence, in itself, is not a crime...period.

I agree with you that people are put through great hardship before ever being proven guilty.  I agree that it sucks, and I wish there was a way to improve the system so that it happens less often or not at all...but none of that changes the basic fact stated above.


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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17302861 - 11/29/12 12:30 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

>Silence, in itself, is not a crime...period.

That gal might argue with you about that. And if she is convicted will that change your view? Seems like if the authorities say its a crime, it is. If she committed no crime why wasn't the case thrown out? Why does it have to go to a jury?


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #17302881 - 11/29/12 12:35 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

I have no idea if she did more than simply fail to report it.  She may very well have taken an affirmative step...I don't know, and you apparently don't either.  If you have a source of information to support the notion that she did nothing but stay silent, I'd love to see it.

Without such a source, you're just guessing.

Here is some reading material for you:
"This statute has been construed, however, to require both knowledge of a crime and some affirmative act of concealment or participation." Branzburg v. Hayes, 408 U.S. 665 (1972)
http://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/408/665


"Misprision of a felony “require[s] both knowledge of a crime and some affirmative act of concealment or participation.”" ITANI v. ASHCROFT, 298 F.3d 1213
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-11th-circuit/1260583.html

Here is an opinion from the 11th circuit court of appeals about Ms. Brantley's case.  The District court dismissed the indictment, and the prosecution appealed.  The dismissal was overturned.
http://www.justice.gov/usao/flm/press/2012/feb/20120217_Brantley_Opinion.pdf


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Edited by Enlil (11/29/12 12:56 PM)

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Can the cops indite you if you have mycology supplies and psilocybin spores for research? [Re: Enlil]
    #17303259 - 11/29/12 01:44 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

johnm214 said:

In general, I don't talk to police because I don't trust them and can't know in most cases whether I'm going to be fucked with or if I'm helping hurt someone else.  Say someone comes over to my house and I find out they have some pills in their pocket (felony).  I tell them to leave.  Would it be constitutional to convict me on that basis? 


Assuming that there is some criminal statute requiring you to report it to the police, it would probably be Constitutional.  There are no laws in the U.S. giving people a general duty to report crimes, so you couldn't be convicted of it at this point.  If such a law is ever passed, it will likely be tested by the Court...then we'll know for sure.






Yes, but how do you know whether it risks you criminal prosecution to report the offense?  In an actual court you have lawyers and a judge to explain the law to you, but when the law books for a single state can stack four feet high, how do you know what to say or not to say?

Such a law would require someone to come forward to the police, not be compelled under court order with a judge deciding whether such compulsion is legal.  (and the way the laws are written, they generally do require active reporting, no matter how the courts 'construe' them- I guess a person of ordinary intelligence can't be expected to be able to understand the laws of his own damn country after all).


Finally, what is the point of such laws?  How would they not be covered by conspiracy and obstruction laws?  Seems like we have way too many laws that are just used so the prosecutors can always fuck who they want to fuck.

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