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OfflineCrobih
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Registered: 11/03/98
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: ]
    #1735914 - 07/21/03 05:41 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
does anyone really think that pure, unchecked democracy is a good thing?


Yes. It is the fact based on organisation principles. e-democracy is far more effective political system than this. Cause you can decentralise power and in the same time you do not loose the effectivnes of the system.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: iglou]
    #1735920 - 07/21/03 05:44 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

iglou said:
It is also important to note that no system, political or economic, will ever be perfect.

We must balance out the negatives and positive aspects/effects of the said system.

I say representative democracy has some good aspects, but they are far outweighed by the negative. The problems that are found in direct democracy theory/practice are outweighed by the positive aspects (individual responsiblity, active decision-making and participation in our own lives, no spectacle, doing what is best for ourselves and our community).


Hm. The new system is superior to this system. In every single context. Next, I have to point out, that internet offers optimal political system! Even though, the first e-democracy wont be so optimal for sure.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: iglou]
    #1735923 - 07/21/03 05:45 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

iglou said:
what if the majority of the people wish to establish a state religion and persecute those who don't comply? what if the majority wish to make political protest illegal? what if the majority wish to reinstitute slavery? what if the majority wants to ban certain plants and incarcerate anyone found in possession of such plants? what if the majority wants to ban certain consensual sexual acts between adults?

The principles that are required for direct democracy are free-association (non-binding decisions and the ability of the individual to not participate) and self-defense as well as near-consensual decisions.

Basically, decisions are made by those who are most effected by the outcomes of the decisions. Decisions must be made in consensus (or majority vote as a necessary last resort). If someone does not agree with a decision made by majority vote, that can opt out. Decisions are not binding (especially for the minority).

However if such a decision is coercive and the democracy has devolved to point of coercion, that is where self-defense comes into play.


There is one important fact in this constatation. Freedom of speech!


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: iglou]
    #1735933 - 07/21/03 05:48 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

iglou said:
i'm in support of this system here, but it's not democracy, it's freedom.

Yes, it is freedom. It is also the absense of authority and heriarchy. It is the activiation of free-association and rudimentary democratic principles ("rule by people").

what it doesn't address are situations that call for a decision that affects everyone that can't be opted out of... what if they can only go to eat at one place?

Well, what would you do in a similar situation?

Again, that is where debate, compromise, and free-assocation come into play. Never should coercion take place. As long as principles are enacted, they'll figure out what is best to do. I say self-governing and self-responsible individuals are creative enough to figure their lives out.     


People come down :smile:. You are talking about anarchy. But, first  things first. The first thing is e-democracy, the system that will move the people to start thinking by their own head. That is the first step to the new era.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Strumpling]
    #1735957 - 07/21/03 05:55 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

DoctorJ, iglu. Are you political activists? I mean, I work on this idea for a while. If you are involved in this e-movement, we could make a good contact :smile:.


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Anonymous

Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Crobih]
    #1736005 - 07/21/03 06:11 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

totally unhindered, pure democracy? any public policy supported by a majority becomes law, no matter what it is?


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: ]
    #1736025 - 07/21/03 06:19 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
totally unhindered, pure democracy? any public policy supported by a majority becomes law, no matter what it is? 


We have stuff that is so called democratic puffer. Second thing, though the e-democracy is not instealled yet, it has to pass the testing period. To make some basic postulates such as freedom of speech, and other stuff made by concensus.

Main principles + constition will control mob effect. Though, nowdays, oligarchy uses this mob effect against the mob. Now, when poeple will really deciede, it is not their interest to act ahainst themselves.

Though, testing period is necessary. And it is happening right now :smile:.


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Anonymous

Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Crobih]
    #1736075 - 07/21/03 06:39 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

are there certain gaurantees of individual liberty and certain restrictions on government that cannot be overturned, even by a majority vote?


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: ]
    #1736099 - 07/21/03 06:48 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Freedom of speech is something that must not be overturned. Off course, any possible restrictions of this stuff must be very carefully set.

Though, constitution can be changed. Not by majority, but by 4/5th. There are some basic policies that can be overturned, but very hardly, and some less basic and important policies that need simple majority.

Anyway, the system is very flexible and people who are going to work on it are experts. Plus testing period that has to take its time. This stuff, plus basic principle that is abolutly positive makes me no doubt about the new system.


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Anonymous

Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Crobih]
    #1736109 - 07/21/03 06:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

my ideal government would be so small, it's role so limited, that there would barely be a need for voting at all.


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OfflineCrobih
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: ]
    #1736114 - 07/21/03 06:53 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

My ideal government is no government :wink:.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Crobih]
    #1737950 - 07/22/03 10:57 AM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"The best type of government is one of whose existence the people are barely aware

Next comes the government they praise and cherish

Next comes the government they fear and despise

The worst type of government is one that people hate and openly defy."

- Lao Tzu, "Tao Teh Ching"


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Anonymous

Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Crobih]
    #1738129 - 07/22/03 12:07 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

do you support welfare? public schools? how do you feel about gun control? medicare?


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: ]
    #1738141 - 07/22/03 12:10 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

That shit shouldn't be from the government! :mad:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738145 - 07/22/03 12:12 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

i'm asking crobih, who says his ideal government would be no government. i ask because i seem to recall him being in favor of a few rather large, intrusive governmental programs.


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OfflineAzmodeus
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: ]
    #1738149 - 07/22/03 12:13 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Thats cool, i was just voicing my opinion.... :rolleyes:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1738163 - 07/22/03 12:16 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

just curious... where in the tao te ching does Lao-tzu say that?


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Crobih]
    #1738298 - 07/22/03 01:06 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Though, constitution can be changed. Not by majority, but by 4/5th.




I think a staggered set could be useful:

51% majority required to decide what to do with tax money.
61% majority required to make meaningless administrative changes.
71% majority required to alter or create an ordinary law.
81% majority required to raise taxes.
91% majority required to change the constitution.

But in the end, no system will guarantee that freedom prevails. The best thing we can do is to teach our children about the principles involved, and the worst thing we can do (when everything else has failed) is to fight and kill those who work against individual freedom.


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1738576 - 07/22/03 02:51 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

"where in the tao te ching does Lao-tzu say that?"

its in there. one of my favorite verses, though I don't know where in the book it is offhand. I dont think that book is organized in any specific way anyway.

it only takes a half hour to read the whole book. you can find it if you look.


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Anonymous

Re: Direct Democracy = Technologically Feasible? [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1739108 - 07/22/03 06:00 PM (20 years, 4 months ago)

i've read it several times (and in different translations) and i don't remember it saying that... that's why i ask. i like it though... sounds like something old lao-tzu would say...


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