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InvisibleSwami
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Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights"
    #1726932 - 07/18/03 04:26 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Feelings of oneness, beauty, and clarity are frequently sited as reasons to trip, yet when one ends up in the ER in terror and confusion, this is put aside as the tripper:

A. was not respectful of the mushroom (whatever that means)

B. had a propensity towards mental illness (with no evidence to back this up)

C. had a wrong mindset or setting.

How about: his normal brain functioning was disrupted and any and all conclusions are likely to be false! A bad trip CAN happen to anyone no matter what precautions that you take, although proper precautions definitely reduces the odds.

See this is what gets me, a tripper has a cosmic "insight" that is "real" and "true" and the way things are, but when he sees his girlfriend as a demon and wants to kill her, well that OBVIOUSLY is not "real" or "true". You really cannot have it both ways, people.

I brought this up last year in the aliens vs. cartoon characters thread. Most everybody "sees" cartoon characters at some time, yet these are not considered "real", but alien visions are considered "real". And we can e-a-s-i-l-y differentiate them, how?

Not to be insensitive, but we have no idea as to whether or not mushroom (or other drug) "insights" as to the nature of reality contributed to Vibrant's decision to check out or not. Something to consider.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlinepattern
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Swami]
    #1726947 - 07/18/03 04:46 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

See this is what gets me, a tripper has a cosmic "insight" that is "real" and "true" and the way things are, but when he sees his girlfriend as a demon and wants to kill her, well that OBVIOUSLY is not "real" or "true". You really cannot have it both ways, people.




We can have it both ways.  The human mind is fallible, and if you accept the idea that mushrooms are not perfect, then you CAN pick and choose which insights are true or not.  In fact we must, the very nature of these trips demands it.  It is up to the person to exercise proper judgement and decision.

If we were all doing what Vibrant did I would agree with you, but the fact is most people who eat mushrooms haven't committed suicide or gone insane.  (There could be a higher rate of depression, so caution must be emphasised, as well as a strong healthy mind)    :oogle:

I say we must exercise judgement during our trips.  We can write it all off as nonsense, or we can learn from it.  defending my favorite fungi, :mushroom2: 


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man = monkey + mushroom


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Swami]
    #1726992 - 07/18/03 05:20 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I use this simple rule: if the insight still holds its water after the return to consensual reality, then I selectively accept it, otherwise I don't.

In fact, the very experience of having seen things that aren't actually there, makes me even more skeptical of far-fetched claims made about the real world.


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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Swami]
    #1727008 - 07/18/03 05:34 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Even the "bad" parts of a trip are telling you something. Might not be something u want to hear though!


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Always Smi2le


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Swami]
    #1727012 - 07/18/03 05:35 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

how pretentious we humans are to say what is and what isn't. Personally I dislike thinking while on shrooms.  Doing is better. being in the moment :smile:

Swami I think repecting the shroom is to recognize it's power and respect it.  I read one of vibrants posts saying something about 10 grams (along with a host of other drugs).  10 grams (dried) is wayyyy tooo muchhhh. 
I've had a couple of friends (ravers) who just did too much, and they were comitted. same shit, OEV, feeling like liquid, different voices all the time.Reading some of his posts beofre, it sounded like vibrant was going through some major tough times and that'll do a lot of people in alone. 

 


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: kaiowas]
    #1727060 - 07/18/03 06:54 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

We don't know if ViBrAnT's troubles were caused by drugs or by something else. He posted this a week before he killed himself.

Quote:

I sure hope i find out "who" i am soon, the tumor is getting bigger by the day, and the doctors say it cant be removed. They estimate about another month or so before i cant walk or even put sentences together.





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InvisibleSclorch
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Swami]
    #1727119 - 07/18/03 09:11 AM (14 years, 2 months ago)

What do we have here? *puts on battle regalia*

Swami:    C. had a wrong mindset or setting.

How about: his normal brain functioning was disrupted and any and all conclusions are likely to be false! A bad trip CAN happen to anyone no matter what precautions that you take, although proper precautions definitely reduces the odds.


Okay... you're wrong here.
Mindset and setting play a significant role (the significance tapers off with larger doses, for sure) under moderate doses (a trip equivalent to 4 grams of dried P. cubensis).  I've had only ONE bad trip (though it was on LSD), but it was due almost entirely to the people around me (note: if I had been sober, I STILL would have been upset given the same situation).  Since then, I have always made sure before I trip that I would be in a comfortable environment (dose-dependent for me) and my mind was relatively unfettered and stable.  One bad trip in over 50 intense experiences is a damn good indication that set and setting are primary factors, especially considering I've batted one thousand ever since that bad experience (my ninth trip).

See this is what gets me, a tripper has a cosmic "insight" that is "real" and "true" and the way things are, but when he sees his girlfriend as a demon and wants to kill her, well that OBVIOUSLY is not "real" or "true". You really cannot have it both ways, people.

Here's what gets me:
I've NEVER once hallucinated on any "hallucinogen".  I've always been able to know that what I am experiencing on psychedelics is merely a reaction to a drug.  I don't think it's because I'm special or anything... most of my friends (those who have tripped) share this notion with me.  Furthermore, as I've said many times over, if the "insight" I've learned doesn't hold water when I'm sober... I merely set it aside.  I've actually had more lame "insights" from smoking pot than from any trip.  And, no, I've never seen a fucking alien... but I know that's because I'm not as cool as anyone who has.  :rolleyes:

I brought this up last year in the aliens vs. cartoon characters thread. Most everybody "sees" cartoon characters at some time, yet these are not considered "real", but alien visions are considered "real". And we can e-a-s-i-l-y differentiate them, how?

Well, I'll take a shot at this even though it doesn't apply to me.
Some people subconsciously compensate for their insecurity by seeking control.  This control can sometimes be in the form of privileged knowledge/experience, which can also come in different forms (think: Leary's grad students vs. the other, non-tripping Harvard grad students).   


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Sclorch]
    #1727364 - 07/18/03 12:46 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Mindset and setting play a significant role...

To which I agreed, but not the only role. To use an analogy, well-prepared mountaineers greatly reduce the danger, but even well-prepared and experienced mountaineers die of hypothermia, falls and avalanches.

My contention is that exploring "inner space" is inherently fraught with danger. A few years back, a willing pupil (wish I had the title and author handy) studied under an experienced shaman (ayahuascuero) taking everything seriously and doing all the correct preparations. He became a shaman in his own right, but was taken over by demonic spirits (his take on the matter) and now lectures on the dangers of cracking open the cosmic egg.

A historical note: LSD usage dropped dramatically after the '70s, not because of the illegality of unavailability, but because of burn-out and the the "insights" were found to be lacking. It has taken nearly a generation for the major resurgence of interest in psychedelics as the naysayers (not the establishment, but the experienced users) have grown quiet. Note the dearth of 45+ y.o. members here. Those who should have the most to say and contribute (the hippie generation) are dead or have long-since left the psychedelic path for more common pursuits.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1727417 - 07/18/03 01:17 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I use this simple rule: if the insight still holds its water after the return to consensual reality, then I selectively accept it

Does the "aliens are real entities" insight hold water after your return?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
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Loc: In the hen house
Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: kaiowas]
    #1727425 - 07/18/03 01:19 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Swami I think repecting [sic] the shroom is to ... respect it.

Thank you for your clarification.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Swami]
    #1727494 - 07/18/03 01:49 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Does the "aliens are real entities" insight hold water after your return?




Never happened. And for me it's elves/pixies, not aliens. They tend to vanish long before the trip is over, the moment I confront them by asking "hey, are you guys just voices from my subconscious trying to tell me something?"

Spirits are different, but I don't consider them to be entities, they are rather motivational memes that use my brain as a vehicle.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Swami]
    #1727592 - 07/18/03 02:31 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

Exploring "inner space" is fraught with danger because that is exactly where you hide all your suppresed emotions/memories, the deepest fears... all those happy subconscious issues that no one wants to deal with, and just push down and ignore.
But to achieve "freedom", these things must all be brought to the table and dealt with, face to face. To allow fear to control you is what lets one become 'possesed by demons'... the demons don't just come possess you.. they need your permission. By centering in fear, there is their permission.
The key, as always, is to live in love.

It is like just about anything that is potentially dangerous... As long as you have the proper safety equipment, and the right knowledge of what to do, there need be no fear, and inner space can be explored at will.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Selective acceptance of mushroom "insights" [Re: Shroomism]
    #1727708 - 07/18/03 03:15 PM (14 years, 2 months ago)

I employ selective acceptance of almost EVERY insight... mushroom induced or otherwise


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peace, pot, and microdot!


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