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Offlinefireworks_godS
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A Question About Gay People
    #1725477 - 07/17/03 06:45 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I always hear things about people that are gay, deep down inside, and they hide from it, fear the fact they are gay, don't want anyone to know that they are gay, and try to change the fact that they are gay.
My question is, what makes someone gay? I mean, all the input we receive in our life makes us who we are, sort of forms us. So, sometime in some guy's childhood, they pick up from women that like men a liking of men. This is entirely possible; our input defines who we are (especially at a young age, when we don't have anything in our head to compare new input agansit to determine whether or not it is right or wrong), just as a young guy in a Muslim country might be brought up with the belief that Americans are evil and that he must die for his country.
So, some will argue, that it isn't the case with being gay, because of the feelings that come with, in regards to say seeing other males. That these feelings, whether or not you like it, make you gay and you can never change this, no matter how hard you try and ignore them, no matter how much you try to tell yourself that it isn't right, that it isn't true.

Being gay is programmed into you. Just as patriotism, morals, any belief at all. We can reprogram our minds. Some people grow up with no regard for human life, and kill people in cities for their money. Let's say their mom dies, or they almost die, and they realize how mortal we are and how wrong it is to take someone else's freedom to live. They used to be able to justify killing people by the feelings involved, that it was fun and they enjoyed doing so. They could justify killing someone by the feelings they experience that backed it up (same thing for killing in God's name, for your country, etc.). However, they are basically reprogrammed into believing that killing is wrong, it isn't fun (just like people that are helped off major drug addictions).
Why can't people stop being gay? I suspect that the people that are gay, and don't want to be, that try hiding it and what not, they tell themselves they aren't gay, but they secretly "know" they are gay and escape it (mainly, because that is what they are told).
If a person really doesn't want to be gay, but they occasionally get a rise out of another man, that doesn't mean you're gay. It only means it if you want to mean it. I don't know, people always assume that because they are something now, that it condemns them forever or something.
Does anyone here see what I'm trying to get at? Please help, if you do.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1725509 - 07/17/03 06:57 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

To further solidify a point made in my post:

* People with bad posture aren't condemned to bad posture; exercise, yoga, chiropractic work can solve this.

* People who do not have good communication skills aren't condemned to having bad communication skills; it is a learned trait, and when you learn it isn't important (well, it is, but only to how long and how easy or hard it is to learn).

And, by the way, I'm not saying it is wrong to be gay. I'm just pissed by all the people that are gay that tell other people that go through hell because they might be gay and try to fight or hide it, that they might as well accept it, its true and blah blah. We are who we want to be. Its almost like they need more asses or something, trying to recruit more.

If you don't want to be gay, but are split in your head by the possibility that you are, stop accepting the fact that you are. People try fighting things like this, and then they give in afterwards and tell themselves that they are and always will be.
WE ALL NEED TO REALIZE (I don't mean to preach what's necessary, after all, I guess some people might not want to realize this, and I shouldn't force my beliefs on them) THAT WHAT MAKES US IS OUR PROGRAMMING, AND WE HAVE THE POWER TO REPROGAM.

I'm sure, someday, someone will design a program for computers to be able to understand the actual code that runs everything in them, and then allow them to use that code to do whatever the hell they want (sort of like us being given consciousness).
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1725521 - 07/17/03 07:02 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Some say homosexuality is genetic. Some say it's a choice. Some say it's the way you're brought up. I think there is some amount of truth in each of these things. I think some people have a genetic predisposition towards being gay. Now, this doesn't necessarily mean that they will end up living a gay lifestyle, but it does mean that they are attracted to the same sex, whether they admit it or not. For many of them, there is no way of telling that they're gay until they have a chance to explore their sexuality. Those that are brought up in a more tolerant environment will probably be more likely to explore their sexuality than someone brought up in a homophobic environment.

I had a friend in High School who used to date girls, but then when he was 17 he came out of the closet and told me and some other friends that he was gay. It wasn't long after that that I started meeting some of his gay friends(he had probably done some "exploring" without me knowing already). He had really conservative parents, so they probably had little to do with him being gay(except maybe for the genetic aspect of it), but he was always a pretty open-minded person, and so my guess is he started hanging around gay people and that's when he realized that he was gay.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblechunder
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: silversoul7]
    #1725556 - 07/17/03 07:10 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think silversoul7 hit the nail on the head.

As far as the labels homosexual and heterosexual, I think they are inadequate. If anything human sexuality is ambiguous. Of course one might prefer one or another, but this is probably due to social conditions, expectations, fears, etc. not what you're actually honestly attracted to. I am a heterosexual but I have felt deep love for other males that I would have loved to have expressed in a more physical manner.

I think the best way to analyze human sexuality is to analyze animal sexuality. Spend some time watching the monkies at the zoo! They certainly don't hesitate to show physical love to the monkies they love, regardless of sex. Good thread. Peace.


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Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
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Loc: This Planet Earth
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1725588 - 07/17/03 07:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Good questions.  I think that if anyone digs deep enough down into the unconscious, and through meditation and perhaps entheogen use gets to know the different aspects of one's self, that they can to an extent prune themselves to change or cultivate parts of themselves.  That's my hypothesis about myself at least.  There's more to it than that, but I think that basically, we can reprogram ourselves to an extent.  But, why should we do it?  I think that it's almost like asking someone to change their haircolour because you don't like it, or asking someone to not be black because it offends you or your religion (not talking about whatever your religion is, just using a made-up example).  I don't take offense to it, because I try not to let things like that bother me when they happens to me.  We each just see it differently than the other, no need to fight or to let it hinder our personal growth.

I don't know specifially why people are queer.  Personally I think we have some hand in choosing certain traits about ourselves before we're born, maybe that's part of it.  Those that change to being straight, I applaud them for the effort and strength of will it must have taken to do it.  But for me, before I let myself make the decision to change my sexuality to being straight, I stopped and looked at the situation (other things besides my gayness) and for the first time decided that I wanted to be who I felt that I was and what I felt was right for me instead of being who I thought others expected me to be.  Interestingly, I believe that straight people (not everyone, mostly just those who are in touch with themselves enough) can 'convert' themselves to being gay just like some gay people could 'become' straight.  And don't forget the bisexuals, and all the many other sexualities and philias (including the socially unnacceptable ones, but that's a different topic).

Also I think both biology and environment have a hand in it, too, I don't think it's any one factor (just like many other things).  I recently have been considering whether I'm bi or 'just' gay.  I think that we all are probably bisexual to an extent, and that if we were really honest with ourselves, maybe a lot more of us are really more curious about others of the same sex than we like to think.  Personally I want to be who I want to be, I'm not hurting anyone else and I think that we should all be able to get along and be nice to ourselves and each other.  /hippie speak :smile:   


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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Offlineneutralizer
Spiritual beinghaving a Humanexperience
Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 635
Loc: This Planet Earth
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1725599 - 07/17/03 07:24 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
To further solidify a point made in my post:

* People with bad posture aren't condemned to bad posture; exercise, yoga, chiropractic work can solve this.

* People who do not have good communication skills aren't condemned to having bad communication skills; it is a learned trait, and when you learn it isn't important (well, it is, but only to how long and how easy or hard it is to learn).



I think homosexuality goes down to a deeper level in the unconscious than bad posture or learning how to overcome anxiety and bad communication skills, and isn't as easily changed.

Quote:

And, by the way, I'm not saying it is wrong to be gay. I'm just pissed by all the people that are gay that tell other people that go through hell because they might be gay and try to fight or hide it, that they might as well accept it, its true and blah blah. We are who we want to be. Its almost like they need more asses or something, trying to recruit more.



You are right (not about the recruiting part ;p), people do make too much of the situation. It is annoying to people on both sides of the fence, believe me.

Quote:

If you don't want to be gay, but are split in your head by the possibility that you are, stop accepting the fact that you are. People try fighting things like this, and then they give in afterwards and tell themselves that they are and always will be.
WE ALL NEED TO REALIZE (I don't mean to preach what's necessary, after all, I guess some people might not want to realize this, and I shouldn't force my beliefs on them) THAT WHAT MAKES US IS OUR PROGRAMMING, AND WE HAVE THE POWER TO REPROGAM.

I'm sure, someday, someone will design a program for computers to be able to understand the actual code that runs everything in them, and then allow them to use that code to do whatever the hell they want (sort of like us being given consciousness).
Peace.




I pretty much agree with you. I think that it's not something that should one should fight with themselves over. But, I think that it's not something that everyone should change about themselves. Even those that do have issues with coming to terms with their sexuality, some of those deep down really do want to be who they are, and the stress over it comes from attempting to make their life match the life they were programmed to have. I think getting over anxiety of the situation, accepting yourself and your feelings and believing that you are O.K. would eliminate a lot of the problems and would help a lot more people into learning more about themselves faster.


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (07/17/03 07:34 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: neutralizer]
    #1725965 - 07/17/03 09:54 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

neutralizer said:
But, why should we do it? I think that it's almost like asking someone to change their haircolour because you don't like it, or asking someone to not be black because it offends you or your religion. I don't take offense to it, because I try not to let things like that bother me when they happens to me. We each just see it differently than the other, no need to fight or to let it hinder our personal growth.




But what I am talking about is OUR personal growth. If you didn't like your hair color, you'd change it. If you didn't like that fact that you had some intimate thoughts about your guy friend, than you could change it.
I mean, you have to question why you don't like it, it is probably just the result of various programming, telling you its bad, or that people will hate you or whatever. But, what if you really aren't interested in leading any gay lifestyle, you don't want to be fucking other guys, and you don't want any gay thoughts ruining your time spent with your friend? Just as a heroin addict doesn't want to be doing the drug to ruin their life, same thing.
I'm not comparing being gay to having a dangerous drug addiction, I'm just saying that if you truly don't want to have those thoughts, then should you be forced to have them? Some people have thoughts of suicide, they don't want to have them, but does having those thoughts in the first place justify having them?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1726257 - 07/17/03 11:02 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Oh. Well I guess then you'd either have to shut your mind to it, forcing yourself to not think about it (it can be done) and sort of 'trick' yourself into living a heterosexual lifestyle...but good luck keeping that up for the rest of your life. I think if you're more towards the middle of the sexuality spectrum (<-straight-------bi-------gay->) it would be easier to focus on the hetero-aspect of your sexuality and to ignore the homo-aspect.

Sometimes things happen that can't be changed, sometimes there are qualities about us that can't be changed. Can you change your favorite colour? Can you change the way you feel about your loved ones on-demand? Probably, but it'd take effort. Personally I wouldn't want to supress my sexuality, I figure it's there for a reason, and even if that reason is that it's a result of factors in my life and can potentially be changed, I don't see a need for me to change it personally. I'm happy, my bf's happy, we're not hurting anyone. We're not contributing to the overpopulation of the planet, and one day maybe we can give some child or children a good home without having to bring new ones into the world. Also I feel the benefits of making the effort to come to terms with various aspects about myself (sexuality definately included) has helped me to learn more about myself and others that I probably wouldn't have learned had I supressed the parts of myself that bothered me as opposed to confronting them.

Of course there's still parts of me that need work just like everyone; I'm not claiming to be perfect or have all the answers /disclaimer


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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Offlinenubious
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: neutralizer]
    #1726295 - 07/17/03 11:21 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

This lesbian I know once gave me a lecture when I called her a lesbian... it went something along the lines of "I'm not a lesbian. I like people - it just happens that the majority of the people I like in an intimate way are women..."
I didn't really know what to make of it at the time, but as time went on I realised that I'm the same way... There are some girls that don't interest me in the least, and there are guys that I feel physically attraction to.. It's really hard to just label those feelings as either 'gay' or 'strait', just as it's hard to explain how love can feel... People enjoy physicial contact with other human beings, whether it be hugs or otherwise..... just as you would hug a brother when moving somewhere far away, some people find comfort in sharing sexual experiences with someone of the same sex. I try not to think of it as 'gay' or 'strait' .. People like people - Some people like other types of people more than others, and I don't see anything wrong with that....

I don't know if that makes any sense or not, but, that's the best of how I can explain it...


--------------------
No one knows the worth of innocence till he knows it is gone forever, and that money can't buy it back. Not the saint, but the sinner that repenteth, is he to whom the full length and breadth, and height and depth, of life's meaning is revealed. Good and evil loose all objective meaning and are seen as equally necessary and contrasting elements in the masterpiece that is the universe.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: nubious]
    #1726378 - 07/18/03 12:00 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You make sense to me. It seems like a lot of people face this, the whole love thing, but not wanting full fucking gay sex? Just curious, now, as to everyone's thoughts...

Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: nubious]
    #1726382 - 07/18/03 12:01 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Good way to put it, nubious.
Fireworks_god, were you talking to me or to nubious?


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: neutralizer]
    #1726440 - 07/18/03 12:23 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

A little of both, actually. I've felt the same thing, only with a couple of guys, its sort of irritating, just because it distracts from the overall hanging out, or whatever. I gotta get to bed though, so I'll be back on tomorrow to write more.
Peace.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineGernBlanston
unintended sideeffect

Registered: 05/28/03
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1726464 - 07/18/03 12:33 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Question:

Did you choose to be straight? (Fireworks God)

I mean, when you were 15, were you in gym class one day and looked around and thought to yourself, "Hmm... Boobies or Weenies? So many choices..."

Not likely, right? If you are straight, then when you were 15, you prolly looked around at all the boobies and never gave it another thought.

This is not taking experimentation into account. I think that somewhere in the neighborhood of 60% of males and upwards of 80% of females have at least some experience with same-sex sexual contact. You are talking about what you are, not what you've done.

So, seriously. Did you choose to be straight?


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1726662 - 07/18/03 01:51 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I'll answer for him (and most straight people): yes, but unconsciouslly (just like most straight people who've never thought about it)

That's how I think of it at least.


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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OfflineKenny Bus
The enlightend

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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1726688 - 07/18/03 02:03 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i dont know if its healthy to force yourself to think a different way


--------------------
KB


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Offlineneutralizer
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Registered: 06/17/03
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: Kenny Bus]
    #1726812 - 07/18/03 03:15 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think it is. Just accept yourself and all your conflicting internal thoughts and views. I don't think ignoring it will make it go away, instead it'll probably just come back to bother you somehow later. Or at the least, you have a much greater chance of being an unhappy person.


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: neutralizer]
    #1727803 - 07/18/03 04:01 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I haven't chose anything yet, technically. (not had sex of any kind).
Its quite the conflict. Ignoring a, for the most part, unregular, not very often, quite isolated, really, stir of emotions is going to make me unhappy? Doing something about them in a situation would make me more unhappy.
What I am saying, is that my mind is so complex that it has EVERY thought. Everyone, at some point and time, has security issues. Ever fear being harmed by someone? That is an emotional-backed tendency. You want to feel secure. However, from a higher state of mind, the pursuit of security (one of the lowest levels of consciousness) is more harmful to you than it is good. Does the fact that emotions back them up make it okay? That's what this is about.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlineneutralizer
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Registered: 06/17/03
Posts: 635
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Last seen: 10 years, 8 months
Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: fireworks_god]
    #1727835 - 07/18/03 04:13 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Having homo- or heterosexual thoughts doesn't mean you have to act on them. Evaluate them, get to feel comfortable about the fact that you're having them. Then if you ever decide you do want to find a nice guy to spend some time with, go out and do it. If not, no problem. Just be true to yourself.

I hope I understood what you were asking, feels like I gave too simple an answer....


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (07/18/03 04:40 PM)


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Invisiblepoke smot!
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Re: A Question About Gay People *DELETED* [Re: neutralizer]
    #1727920 - 07/18/03 04:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Post deleted by poke smot!

Reason for deletion: x



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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: A Question About Gay People [Re: poke smot!]
    #1727938 - 07/18/03 04:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I tend think of homosexuality as just another way of nature/our internal population control.


--------------------
There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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