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OfflineXingu
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Registered: 10/20/12
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Painful budget statistic
    #17243775 - 11/18/12 09:41 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

"For example, heart disease, cancer, strokes, respiratory diseases, diabetes, and Alzheimer's disease claimed about 1,650,000 American lives in 2007, when the government spent about $9.6 billion researching ways to alleviate those illnesses. In contrast, terrorism had claimed about 300 lives per year on average over the previous decade, but $150 billion was spent to prevent terrorism, not including even more costly defense and war expenses."

Oh the priorities of our adorably wasteful government (all parties involved). Expensively destroying personal freedoms, using hate to fight hate, mandatory investing in a necessarily stagnant retirement fund while economically, scientifically, and socially logical spending on health, education, and investment in forward thinking technology companies/agencies are regularly being cut. Clearly the answer to all of our problems is $1.4 trillion spent on social security and policing the world. I suppose clueless idealism is a far wiser way to determine how to run a country than using logic, awareness, and intuition.

Any comments on this whole situation, or any other depressing facts about how much money we waste?

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Offlineqman
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Xingu]
    #17243786 - 11/18/12 09:46 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

:lolwut:

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OfflineXingu
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: qman]
    #17243801 - 11/18/12 09:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

That's a very specific point you have there, qman...could you elaborate more on wut you're talking about?

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OfflineThe Alaskan Dude
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Xingu]
    #17244015 - 11/18/12 10:36 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Hes saying we're spending money on the wrong thing. An admirable point, but I wonder how many of lives would be added to the count had we not spent so much money on the military?


--------------------
The five colors blind the eye,
The five tones deafen the ear,
The five flavors dull the taste.

Racing and hunting madden the mind,
Precious things lead one astray.

Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not what he sees.
He lets go of this and chooses that.

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InvisibleTherian
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Xingu] * 1
    #17244048 - 11/18/12 10:46 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

and investment in forward thinking technology companies/agencies are regularly being cut.




Please tell me why this government should be taking MY money and investing it in what YOU consider "forward thinking companies". When the Repubs do it they are corporate whores, when the Dems give to the VERY SAME companies, they are attempting to promote cutting edge technologies, or of course "creating jobs".

Quote:

Clearly the answer to all of our problems is $1.4 trillion spent on social security and policing the world. I suppose clueless idealism is a far wiser way to determine how to run a country than using logic, awareness, and intuition.




The gov. didn't spend shit on social security. Does the government pay into SS? Is this money coming from congress, or directly from the pockets of Obama? If I put money into a bank account, and attempt to withdraw it in the future, please tell me how this is could be construed as the "banks" money, and not mine. How is the bank now "spending money" on me? 

What if the bank decided to build a new parking lot, and used MY money to do so, then when I attempt to take out my own missing money they say I want some sort of "social welfare" due to the fact I want access to what I have paid into, and is rightfully mine. If you don't want to "spend money" on this program, then don't "take the money" from citizens in the first place.

Quote:

Expensively destroying personal freedoms,



I do agree with this 100%

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: The Alaskan Dude]
    #17244311 - 11/18/12 11:55 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The Alaskan Dude said:
Hes saying we're spending money on the wrong thing. An admirable point, but I wonder how many of lives would be added to the count had we not spent so much money on the military?





My guess would be almost none.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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OfflineThe Alaskan Dude
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Icelander]
    #17244390 - 11/19/12 12:26 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

My guess would be almost none.




When I was 7, I rode alone on an airplane and brought a snake with me. The security guards were unaware. I was bringing it out on the plane showing it to people. I am glad we have more security, both in our vulnerable airline system and in our military defenses. Although I do agree that this money is often inadequately spent and misallocated, but I do not agree with the solution you seem to represent. I think it is important that we have social security. It is the insurance that as citizens of this country, we will be cared for in some small way in our elder years. However, that is not to say I'm against SS reform, in which the age is lifted to better represent modern life expectancy.

Why instead of sacrificing our military defense and elderly insurance programs, you instead focusing your energy fighting the poorly innefeicient government budget in other areas, and for budget review and reform where necessary, and how about politician salary?


--------------------
The five colors blind the eye,
The five tones deafen the ear,
The five flavors dull the taste.

Racing and hunting madden the mind,
Precious things lead one astray.

Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not what he sees.
He lets go of this and chooses that.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Xingu]
    #17244711 - 11/19/12 03:30 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Xingu said:
"For example, heart disease, cancer, strokes, respiratory diseases, diabetes, and Alzheimer's disease claimed about 1,650,000 American lives in 2007, when the government spent about $9.6 billion researching ways to alleviate those illnesses. In contrast, terrorism had claimed about 300 lives per year on average over the previous decade, but $150 billion was spent to prevent terrorism, not including even more costly defense and war expenses."




It's largely due to the role of the federal government in the first place. Defense of the country is one of it's explicit tasks - investing in medical research, I don't think is explicit in the slightest. These figures might seem unbalanced, but you also have to take into consideration all of the private money that is spent on similar medical research, whereas, for the most part, you won't see the spending on combating terrorism by the federal government echoed in the private sector.

Then there's something else to take into consideration. Terrorism, it's effects, and the cost of combating it shouldn't really be measured by the amount of lives claimed by it in the same way as deaths due to disease. Stability and security are what's being maintained by preventing acts of terrorism - the lack of which can have huge, detrimental impacts on the economy. The attacks of 9/11 were estimated to have a loss, in terms of physical damage and costs associated with the loss of life, of $55 billion, with a loss of $123 billion in terms of economic impact.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/09/08/us/sept-11-reckoning/cost-graphic.html
(On a side note I'd disregard a lot of those totals regarding the Iraqi war and veterans' care for those who fought in that war - it doesn't relate to 9/11).

Anyways, the numbers I mentioned above alone surpass the amount you mentioned being spent on the fight to prevent terrorism, although that number seems to pale in comparison to the numbers on the website that I mentioned that are specific to homeland security. Yet a lot of that was due to a massive upgrading of the country's abilities to combat terrorism, which you can liken to upstart costs, pertaining to, like I said, a one-time upgrade of capabilities, and not the base amount required to maintain counter-terrorism activities.

On another note, Social Security is primarily funded by the work of those who later collect it, so I doubt it makes sense to consider it government spending in the same light as the rest of the spending you mention. If it weren't mandated, that money wouldn't have been collected by the government in the first place, as it would have been used (hopefully, how likely I don't know) by individuals in private retirement accounts.


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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OfflineLizard Eyes
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #17298900 - 11/28/12 06:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I agree it frustrates me that someone such as myself who by societies standards is worth much can see this situation is wrong. We got money to fight wars but can't feed the poor.  The United States is a country that exists by killing and enslaving others and we tout it as the greatest country on earth.  Shit needs to change, I don't know what and I don't know how i just think somethings wrong

-signed, the opinion of someone that doesn't matter.


--------------------

Every little thing is gonna be alright:heart:  All you need is love :love: Nobody's right, Nobody's wrong, Life's just a game it's just one epic holiday! :peace:

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Lizard Eyes]
    #17299037 - 11/28/12 06:25 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

this is the most painful budget statistic:

money = debt principle

Debt = principle + interest

debt - Money = interest.

Interest cannot be paid.

interest compounds

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usury


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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OfflineThe Alaskan Dude
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Shins]
    #17300642 - 11/28/12 10:51 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

money = debt principle

Debt = principle + interest

debt - Money = interest.

Interest cannot be paid.

interest compounds




:thumbup:


--------------------
The five colors blind the eye,
The five tones deafen the ear,
The five flavors dull the taste.

Racing and hunting madden the mind,
Precious things lead one astray.

Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not what he sees.
He lets go of this and chooses that.

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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Lizard Eyes]
    #17301297 - 11/29/12 03:18 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lizard Eyes said:
The United States is a country that exists by killing and enslaving others




I think you're just being overly dramatic, honestly. :wink:
Just because the United States is involved in killing doesn't mean that it's the country's means of existence. And slavery? Really?


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: fireworks_god] * 1
    #17302005 - 11/29/12 08:59 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

We kill killers.  Good for us.


--------------------

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OfflineLizard Eyes
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: fireworks_god]
    #17302756 - 11/29/12 12:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Lizard Eyes said:
The United States is a country that exists by killing and enslaving others




I think you're just being overly dramatic, honestly. :wink:
Just because the United States is involved in killing doesn't mean that it's the country's means of existence. And slavery? Really?




Well look at the numbers, we have more people in prison than any other country on the planet...How is that any different than slavery especially since a goodportion of those locked up are for non violent drug crimes,

we also have the biggest military budget on the planet, and we acount for more than a third of the total worlds military budget.

Almost half of our budget is spent on military.

yet college tuition rates are the highest they've ever been and have grown insanely disproportionately with every other sector of the economy


I don't know in my opinion it kinda shows what we value in this country.  :um:

PS sorry all the sources are lazy wiki ones, I've been up since yesterday morning and im too lazy and tired to find any other supporting ones. :/


--------------------

Every little thing is gonna be alright:heart:  All you need is love :love: Nobody's right, Nobody's wrong, Life's just a game it's just one epic holiday! :peace:

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Lizard Eyes]
    #17302831 - 11/29/12 12:22 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Lizard Eyes said:
Quote:

fireworks_god said:
Quote:

Lizard Eyes said:
The United States is a country that exists by killing and enslaving others




I think you're just being overly dramatic, honestly. :wink:
Just because the United States is involved in killing doesn't mean that it's the country's means of existence. And slavery? Really?




Well look at the numbers, we have more people in prison than any other country on the planet...How is that any different than slavery especially since a goodportion of those locked up are for non violent drug crimes,




That isn't slavery.
Quote:



we also have the biggest military budget on the planet, and we acount for more than a third of the total worlds military budget.




We have been the sole protectors of Western style freedom since WW2.  Would you prefer the Soviets or the Caliphate?
Quote:



Almost half of our budget is spent on military.




Complete lie.  http://useconomy.about.com/od/fiscalpolicy/p/Mandatory.htm

Quote:

In FY 2013, mandatory spending is budgeted at 60% of total Federal spending, and 2 1/2 times as much as the military budget. The mandatory budget is estimated to be $2.293 trillion, a new record. The mandatory budget was $2.252 trillion in FY 2012 and $2.073 trillion in FY 2011.

The largest mandatory spending programs were Social Security and Medicare, as follows:

    Social Security - $820 billion
    Medicare - $523 billion
    Medicaid - $283 billion
    TARP - $12 billion
    All other mandatory programs - $654 billion. These programs include Food Stamps, Unemployment Compensation, Child Nutrition and Tax Credits, Supplemental Security for the Disabled and Student Loans.



Quote:



yet college tuition rates are the highest they've ever been and have grown insanely disproportionately with every other sector of the economy




The grotesque rise in college tuition has occurred as a result of increased government funding for college tuition and the fraudulent increase in demand that has come about because we are now sending idiots to universities
Quote:

.


I don't know in my opinion it kinda shows what we value in this country.  :um:




The last election has shown that a plurality, at least, prefers handouts to freedom.


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OfflineBig Worm
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Lizard Eyes]
    #17302843 - 11/29/12 12:25 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Population Control?

:shrug:


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Big Worm]
    #17302874 - 11/29/12 12:33 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Big Worm said:
Population Control?

:shrug:



You first


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17310697 - 11/30/12 05:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This is fairly pathetic

http://m.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/obama-set-to-make-his-case-to-the-public-for-fiscal-cliff-plan/2012/11/30/f5bf68d0-3b06-11e2-b01f-5f55b193f58f_story.html

Apparently Obama plans to cut $4 trillion in spending in 10 years. Not enough, he spent $10 trillion over budget in 4 years. Also he calls the "savings" enough to spend an additional $200 bil. Ok the "savings" will reduce the deficit spending, not stop the defecit spending, or even allow the feds to start bringing in more money then their spending. It just means we are over 16 trillion in debt and the debt will climb slower. Where in the damn world does he see that as an excuse to pull out another $200 billion? :facepalm:


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel]
    #17310727 - 11/30/12 06:01 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
This is fairly pathetic

http://m.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/obama-set-to-make-his-case-to-the-public-for-fiscal-cliff-plan/2012/11/30/f5bf68d0-3b06-11e2-b01f-5f55b193f58f_story.html

Apparently Obama plans to cut $4 trillion in spending in 10 years. Not enough, he spent $10 trillion over budget in 4 years. Also he calls the "savings" enough to spend an additional $200 bil. Ok the "savings" will reduce the deficit spending, not stop the defecit spending, or even allow the feds to start bringing in more money then their spending. It just means we are over 16 trillion in debt and the debt will climb slower. Where in the damn world does he see that as an excuse to pull out another $200 billion? :facepalm:





Reducing the defecit would actually put the economy into a catastrophic deflationary depression.

it's pure banker fraud entrapment.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Shins]
    #17311551 - 11/30/12 08:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Wtf? So raising taxes will cause hyper inflation.....

But..... lowering spending will cause deflation? We should keep spending a trillion a year? Wtf :facepalm: please explain this


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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InvisibleShins
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel]
    #17312393 - 11/30/12 10:50 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Wtf? So raising taxes will cause hyper inflation.....

But..... lowering spending will cause deflation? We should keep spending a trillion a year? Wtf :facepalm: please explain this




raising taxes wouldn't cause hyperinflation... but it would surpress GDP which could be somewhat inflationy (price wise) or it could be deflationary or most likely both (price wise.)


yes like i said money = debt

loans given out = principle amount

loans due back = principle + interest

there is only enough currency in circulation to pay the principle on debts, the interest is mathematically unpayable.

in order to temporarily pay off the unpayable pyramid scheme compounding interest there needs to be more and more new debts/money created to pay it.


its a national ponzi scheme created by corrupt international bankers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme


if we dont keep borrowing trillions and trillions in exponentially greater amounts the whole house of cards will collapse into the biggest depression in american history.

it is extortion on a national scale.

these bankers are some of the most evil people in the world.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Shins]
    #17312522 - 11/30/12 11:29 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

What makes you think it wont collapse on its own into the worst depression imaginable? How long can it continue like this?


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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OfflineXingu
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel]
    #17312583 - 11/30/12 11:49 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Apparently Obama plans to cut $4 trillion in spending in 10 years. Not enough, he spent $10 trillion over budget in 4 years.




How much of that $10 trillion was spent on a war he didn't start? Not that he did much to end it quickly, but 10 years of war has been quite a huge burden to our nation budget.

Therian, my point about social security is that it's essentially a net zero investment. You 'invest' money into it throughout your whole life and essentially get out what you paid in, or less. If you had done the same thing into a low risk investment vehicle, the amount you would have would dwarf what social security does. It's essentially just a broken incentive for people not to manage their money throughout their life. You can't talk about money deposited and then taken out decades later without factoring in inflation and opportunity cost. As far as government investment in companies, that's not really my preference (I'm not a Democrat, or a Republican for that matter), but just an alternative to military spending if the budget remains the same, that, given how much our country wastes on expensive energy, seems to benefit everyone involved, including the military. Given it's history though, the government seems to make for a pretty horrible investor, so my vote would be put more money in the hands of people to invest, and hopefully lower the capital gain taxes to incentivize doing so...paying normal income tax on gains made from pumping your savings directly into the economy is quite silly, although that's only if you're working with short-term investments.

Shins, while you have a point with the debt issue and central banks, it isn't as dramatic as most of the scare tactic videos make it out to be. There is interest required as payment on borrowed money from the central banks, but it's not to the degree that Zeitgeist and the like make it out to be. Money borrowed from China is a far larger source of interest payments (for the time being), and that again, isn't a huge issue. China's economy and our own are essentially tied together with that relationship. If we go under, so do they, so it's basically created incentive for us to watch each other's back economically. In regards to debt in general, it's really not as terrible as you make it out to be, although you are correct in that there's a lot of corruption in the structure that's feeding large amounts of money to people who aren't doing much of anything beneficial to the world. Fiat currency is a lot better than large corporations being able to control currency value by controlling the supply of whatever precious metal it's backed by, even if the structure of it is a pyramid scheme to a certain degree. Sure, if the limit on time is taken to infinity, the system falls apart due to reasons you stated, but I can't see the system lasting long enough without reform/replacement to cause complete economic collapse. Perhaps I'm horribly wrong on that, though.

Overall, the concept of money is pretty garbage in this age, but there's some things in the world that you just have to learn to deal with effectively until paradigms shift. Anyone have an optimistic view of how the world could function with a new monetary system, or without any monetary system?

Zappa, you have a somewhat of a point on the government sending unqualified students to college, although given that everyone has the capacity of improving their capabilities, everyone deserves a shot, if they can afford it. The cost of college is pretty absurd, regardless of government involvement. Here's to hoping that online education systems advance quickly, get accredited, and make education a more individually tailored system that doesn't cost as much as a mid-upper class salary. On the subject of western style freedom...how do you feel about the current state of civil liberties here? Seems like we have ever tightening reigns on our freedoms here, although to be fair, at least drug laws are making some headway with 18 states legalizing medical marijuana. The amount of money we are spending imprisoning huge numbers of people over minor drug offenses, and the amount of money the economy is losing by not having those workers, is fairly significant...believe the last numbers I read were in the $100-200 billion a year range just on the cost to investigate, prosecute, and imprison.

fireworks, perhaps my view is biased as someone who's been through a lot of health issues lately with 0 help from the government or my insurance, but public health seems to be a semi-explicit issue as well, particularly when the functioning of our military personnel is dependent upon the general state of our knowledge and application of medical science, both on the front lines, and in terms of mental health issues upon return. From my compulsive science journal readings, the general consensus seems to be that we are stagnating or getting more unhealthy as an overall populace as the years go by (a broken food industry that's perpetuated by government involvement doesn't help this issue). Obamacare is pretty meh, especially at the cost, so I suppose I just don't quite understand why the military budget has to be AS large as it is, why no one seems to be coming up with decent ideas on how to evolve insurance and medicare systems, and why current spending cuts are targeting scientific and medical research. Military spending is necessary, no doubt, but to the tune of $7XX billion?

Sorry for the long winded post, which likely has numerous errors as I've got to hit the bed before doing appropriate editing.

Edited by Xingu (12/01/12 12:01 AM)

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Xingu]
    #17314241 - 12/01/12 11:10 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Xingu said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Apparently Obama plans to cut $4 trillion in spending in 10 years. Not enough, he spent $10 trillion over budget in 4 years.




How much of that $10 trillion was spent on a war he didn't start? Not that he did much to end it quickly, but 10 years of war has been quite a huge burden to our nation budget.




The cost of the two wars, in total and combined, is about $1T.  That's it.  We spent that much in means tested government awards in just the one last
Quote:

year.




Zappa, you have a somewhat of a point on the government sending unqualified students to college, although given that everyone has the capacity of improving their capabilities, everyone deserves a shot, if they can afford it. The cost of college is pretty absurd, regardless of government involvement. Here's to hoping that online education systems advance quickly, get accredited, and make education a more individually tailored system that doesn't cost as much as a mid-upper class salary. On the subject of western style freedom...how do you feel about the current state of civil liberties here? Seems like we have ever tightening reigns on our freedoms here, although to be fair, at least drug laws are making some headway with 18 states legalizing medical marijuana. The amount of money we are spending imprisoning huge numbers of people over minor drug offenses, and the amount of money the economy is losing by not having those workers, is fairly significant...believe the last numbers I read were in the $100-200 billion a year range just on the cost to investigate, prosecute, and imprison.




1.  They get their shot in high school.  If they cannot prove competence in a structured learning environment they should find something else.  They are wasting their time, degrading classes for the actual achievers and wasting taxpayer funds
2.  Tuition at SUNY Stony Brook is pretty cheap, under $6k for the year.  It is a top school and they don't admit morons.  If you are a moron you are going to have to pay more to waste everybody's time with your remedial reading classes.
3.  Every nation in the world has drug laws.  They're stupid.  It is not a function of the West. 
4.  All drug prohibition is bullshit.  I say get rid of all the drug prohibition no matter how harmful the drug.
5.  The greatest imposition on my civil liberty (the right to private property) is the IRS.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17314313 - 12/01/12 11:25 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Ok first of all, stop counting two wars. The cost of our total world wide military spending in the last 12 years is almost 4 trillion dollars, did you know that? Its much more then just Iraq and Iran, we police the fucking globe. Still, out of 16 trillion, minus 4 trillion, is 12 trillion, not a small chunk but not a humungous chunk either. Ok, social security a problem? Ive got a solution, take everyones money out of their ss plan, dump it into their bank account, and let their bank pay them the interest. If they cant spend wisely without getting small payments, let them get an annuity. Its not impossible. If old fucks have too much alzeimers to manage a payment plan, then its time to go to a retirement home.

Ok.... IRS. Gary Johnson planned to de regulate it. I voted for Gary Johnson. But heres this, news flash:

De regulating the IRS will never happen. Sorry buddy, we are dreamers.


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel]
    #17314683 - 12/01/12 12:57 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Ok first of all, stop counting two wars. The cost of our total world wide military spending in the last 12 years is almost 4 trillion dollars, did you know that? Its much more then just Iraq and Iran, we police the fucking globe. Still, out of 16 trillion, minus 4 trillion, is 12 trillion, not a small chunk but not a humungous chunk either. Ok, social security a problem? Ive got a solution, take everyones money out of their ss plan, dump it into their bank account, and let their bank pay them the interest. If they cant spend wisely without getting small payments, let them get an annuity. Its not impossible. If old fucks have too much alzeimers to manage a payment plan, then its time to go to a retirement home.

Ok.... IRS. Gary Johnson planned to de regulate it. I voted for Gary Johnson. But heres this, news flash:

De regulating the IRS will never happen. Sorry buddy, we are dreamers.




He specifically said the wars that Barry didn't start have bankrupted us, which is flagrant nonsense.

There is no money in any soc sec plan.  Doesn't exist to transfer.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17314735 - 12/01/12 01:07 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Then why does everyone who collects social security so sure it was deducted tax wise from each pay check and thrown into a fund they can start collecting from when they turn 65 or 67 if that is indeed the age its been raised to now?


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel] * 1
    #17315110 - 12/01/12 02:41 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Then why does everyone who collects social security so sure it was deducted tax wise from each pay check and thrown into a fund they can start collecting from when they turn 65 or 67 if that is indeed the age its been raised to now?




Everyone?  There is no soc sec fund.  Never has been.  I have no idea why people believe otherwise except the usual reason.  They're fucking stupid.


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Invisiblememes
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Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 27,785
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Xingu]
    #17315291 - 12/01/12 03:12 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Xingu said:
I suppose clueless idealism is a far wiser way to determine how to run a country than using logic, awareness, and intuition.

Any comments on this whole situation, or any other depressing facts about how much money we waste?





It's so ironic.  Your original post makes perfect sense to you.  It makes sense to me too.  You know, forward thinking, scientific progress, eradication of disease, etc.

...but its a rosey and unobtainable scenario.  Reality does not lend itself to your "ideal" situation.  Your desires lack a reality-check, common-sense, and intuitition -- which is what you accuse our existing system of missing.

:laugh:

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: memes]
    #17316150 - 12/01/12 05:35 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

imachavel said:
Then why does everyone who collects social security so sure it was deducted tax wise from each pay check and thrown into a fund they can start collecting from when they turn 65 or 67 if that is indeed the age its been raised to now?




Everyone?  There is no soc sec fund.  Never has been.  I have no idea why people believe otherwise except the usual reason.  They're fucking stupid.




Ok please explain to me what a social security trust fund is


Social Security
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This article is about the retirement/disability program. For the general concept
of providing welfare, see Social security.
For other uses, see Social Security
(disambiguation).

United States
Federal Budget

Major dimensions
Economy � Expenditures
Federal budget � Financial position
Military budget � Public debt
Taxation � Unemployment

Programs
Medicare � Social Security

Contemporary issues
Fiscal Cliff
Bowles-Simpson Commission �
Bush tax cuts
Debt-ceiling crisis � Deficit reduction
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Social Security debate � "Starve the beast"
Subprime mortgage crisis

Terminology
Cumulative deficit  Interest = Debt
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V � T� E

In the United States, Social Security refers
to the Old-Age, Survivors, and Disability
Insurance (OASDI) federal program.
[1]
The
original Social Security Act (1935)
[2]
and
the current version of the Act, as
amended
[3]
encompass several social
welfare and social insurance programs.

Social Security is primarily funded through
dedicated payroll taxes called Federal
Insurance Contributions Act tax (FICA). Tax
deposits are formally entrusted to the
Federal Old-Age and Survivors Insurance
Trust Fund, the Federal Disability Insurance
Trust Fund, the Federal Hospital Insurance
Trust Fund, or the Federal Supplementary
Medical Insurance Trust Fund which
comprise the Social Security Trust Fund.
[4]

By dollars paid, the U.S. Social Security
program is the largest government program
in the world and the single greatest
expenditure in the federal budget, with
20.8% for Social Security, compared to
20.5% for discretionary defense and 20.1%
for Medicare/Medicaid.
[5]
According to
economist Martin Feldstein, the combined
spending for all social insurance programs
in 2003 constituted 37% of government
expenditure and 7% of the gross domestic
product.
[6]
Social Security is currently
estimated to keep roughly 40 percent of all
Americans age 65 or older out of poverty.
[7]

The Social Security Administration is
headquartered in Woodlawn, Maryland, just
to the west of Baltimore.

Proposals to partially privatize Social
Security became part of the Social Security
debate during the Bill Clinton and George
W. Bush presidencies.

Search Wikipedia


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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel]
    #17316309 - 12/01/12 06:02 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

There is no soc sec trust fund.  It is and always has been pay as you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

Quote:

The Social Security system is primarily a pay-as-you-go system, meaning that payments to current retirees come from current payments into the system.




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InvisibleShins
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: memes]
    #17316339 - 12/01/12 06:09 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)





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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: Shins] * 1
    #17316367 - 12/01/12 06:14 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

You keep saying this incredibly stupid shit as if there is anything else to compete.  There isn't.  Canada?  China?  Europe?  Really?  Get lost, you are becoming a comedy act.


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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17316700 - 12/01/12 07:12 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is no soc sec trust fund.  It is and always has been pay as you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

Quote:

The Social Security system is primarily a pay-as-you-go system, meaning that payments to current retirees come from current payments into the system.







Interesting. Why is this pay as you go system so expensive its costing more of our budget then anything else? And why even use this shit? If its pay as you go why is it so popular? Why dont people just pay themselves as they go, out of their retirement pension? And why have I always had social security options on every application Ive filled out? Not that its much of an option.


--------------------
:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

:facepalm: I'm never giving you the password again. Jerk

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Offlineimachavel
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel]
    #17316858 - 12/01/12 07:37 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

This is weird, you get credits towards soc security? Meaning, you are just getting paid free retirement money from taxes, based on how much you worked? Fuck Im bad at this shit.......... :facepalm: soc security is a way to compensate people who earned a shitty retirement pension? :sad: this country blows. Do they have soc sec programs in socialist countries?

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SSA Publication No. 05-10035, ICN 457500,
July 2012

Home Retirement Disability Survivors SSI Medicare Business Services

Social Security and your retirement plans

Your retirement benefits

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When you work and pay Social Security taxes,
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The number of credits you need to get
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born. If you were born in 1929 or later, you need
40 credits (10 years of work).

If you stop working before you have enough
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Your benefit payment is based on how much
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or had low earnings, your benefit amount may
be lower than if you had worked steadily.

Your benefit payment also is affected by the
age at which you decide to retire. If you retire at
age 62 (the earliest possible retirement age for
Social Security), your benefit will be lower than
if you wait until later to retire. This is explained
in more detail below.

NOTE
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summarizes your earnings. Workers turning
age 25 will receive a one-time only Statement in
the mail. If you are a worker age 18 or older, you
can get a Statement online. It can be a valuable
tool to help you plan a secure financial future. It
provides you with a record of your earnings and
gives estimates of what your Social Security
benefits would be at different retirement ages. It
also gives an estimate of the disability benefits
you could receive if you become severely
disabled before retirement, as well as estimates
of the survivors benefits Social Security would
provide your spouse and eligible family
members when you die. To create an account
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You can use the online Retirement Estimator to
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For more information, ask for Online Retirement
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To Use The Online Retirement Estimator
(Publication No. 05-10511) or visit our
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Full Retirement Age

If you were born in 1944 or earlier, you are
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age at which full retirement benefits are payable
increases gradually to age 67. The following
chart lists the full full retirement age by year of
birth.

Age to receive full Social Security benefits
Year of birth Full retirement age
1943-1954 66
1955 66 and 2 months
1956 66 and 4 months
1957 66 and 6 months
1958 66 and 8 months
1959 66 and 10 months
1960 and later 67
Note: People who were born on January 1 of
any year should refer to the previous year

Early Retirement

You can get Social Security retirement benefits
as early as age 62. However, you will receive a
reduced benefit if you retire before your full
retirement age. For example, if you retire at age
62, your benefit would be about 25 percent
lower than what it would be if you waited until
you reach full retirement age.

Some people stop working before age 62. But if
they do, the years with no earnings will
probably mean a lower Social Security benefit
when they retire.

NOTE
Sometimes health problems force people to
retire early. If you cannot work because of
health problems, you should consider applying
for Social Security disability benefits. The
amount of the disability benefit is the same as a
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receiving Social Security disability benefits
when you reach full retirement age, those
benefits will be converted to retirement
benefits. For more information, ask for
Disability Benefits (Publication No. 05-10029).

Delayed Retirement

You may choose to keep working even beyond
your full retirement age. If you do, you can
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Each additional year you work adds another
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Higher lifetime earnings may mean higher
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Also, your benefit will increase automatically by
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your benefits or until you reach age 70. The
percentage varies depending on your year of
birth. For example, if you were born in 1943 or
later, we will add 8 percent per year to your
benefit for each year that you delay signing up
for Social Security beyond your full retirement
age.

NOTE
If you decide to delay your retirement, be sure
to sign up for Medicare at age 65. In some
circumstances, medical insurance costs more if
you delay applying for it. Other information
about Medicare is in "A word about Medicare."

Deciding When To Retire

Choosing when to retire is an important but
personal decision. Regardless of the age you
choose to retire, it is a good idea to contact
Social Security in advance to learn the available
options and make an informed decision. In
some cases, your choice of a retirement month
could mean higher benefit payments for you
and your family.

In deciding when to retire, it is important to
remember that financial experts say you will
need 70-80 percent of your preretirement
income to have a comfortable retirement. Since
Social Security replaces only about 40 percent
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it is important to have pensions, savings and
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You should apply for benefits about three
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you may want to use our convenient and
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Retirement Benefits For Widows And
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Widows and widowers can begin receiving
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:kingcrankey: I did not say to edit my signature soulidarity! Now forever I will never remember what I said about understanding the secrets of the universe by paying attention to subtleties!

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OfflineXingu
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: zappaisgod]
    #17318441 - 12/02/12 12:26 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:


He specifically said the wars that Barry didn't start have bankrupted us, which is flagrant nonsense.





I questioned how much it cost, and the cost was significant, although I suppose I didn't include enough current and recent past global military activity in what I asked. What is bankrupting us isn't as simple as a single issue, pretty sure everyone realizes that, there's no one item fix to the budget issue.

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is no money in any soc sec plan.  Doesn't exist to transfer.




The lack of option to form your own investments from the amount taken out of paychecks creates an economic detriment is the point, not the existence of any static trust fund, as that's irrelevant. The payin/payout ratio, with inflation factored in, is negative, whereas many low-risk investments easily beat inflation. Inflation over the past decade has averaged a bit under 3%/year...investing straight into index funds without any other effort beats this more than 3 times over, historically.

Agree with you on IRS, and on drug prohibition. Colorado's situation seems to be an initial step down that path.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Painful budget statistic [Re: imachavel]
    #17319528 - 12/02/12 09:23 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

imachavel said:
Quote:

zappaisgod said:
There is no soc sec trust fund.  It is and always has been pay as you go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Security_Trust_Fund

Quote:

The Social Security system is primarily a pay-as-you-go system, meaning that payments to current retirees come from current payments into the system.







Interesting. Why is this pay as you go system so expensive its costing more of our budget then anything else? And why even use this shit? If its pay as you go why is it so popular? Why dont people just pay themselves as they go, out of their retirement pension? And why have I always had social security options on every application Ive filled out? Not that its much of an option.




Why is it so expensive?  Because they have promised tons of benefits.  When it was first enacted the average life span was the eligibility age.  Average life span has gone crazy up since but the eligibility age has hardly changed if it has changed at all.

You don't have a social security option.  You have to pay if you have earned income.


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