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skinnyone
Seeker


Registered: 08/15/12
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: Zoboomafoo]
#17221904 - 11/14/12 10:54 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zoboomafoo said: Like i explained, answering yes is the only answer path selflessness. Answering no or not answering at all is selfish, therefore, my only chance at selflessness is the only other option- yes.
Returning to the neutral state, which is how i felt before i was asked the question (the impossibility to desire satisfaction to a question that had not yet been asked) is the only way to be free of fault while maintaining selflessness. How can i feel happy about something that which has not yet happened? That is the neutral state.
Your happiness or your being right aren't the only tenants of the act being selfish. I like the way you are working the argument, more than anything I've seen thus far, but I still disagree.
You desired to return to the neutral state. You desired to say yes. You wanted to say yes. If not, what forced you to?
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Cyclohexylamine
Turn on, Tune in, Drop out



Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 14,327
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: Sheekle]
#17222013 - 11/14/12 11:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sheekle said: I made a thread like this in the philosophy forum a while back maybe i shoulda posted it in the pub : apparently it's a thoroughly explored topic in there
Yeah we have discussed this issue to its fullness over there  OP you should check out the PS&P forum..
-------------------- Yes this is tymo - I just changed my name Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to awake from that dream? How would you know the difference between that dream world and the real world? There is NOTHING better than feeling that warm dissociative fuzz creeping up your body from IM K Something abut that anaesthetic rush... Qualitative Research Chemical Effects and Experiences The Wonderful World of Methoxetamine The 3-Meo-PCP Chapters, Part One
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JesusIsLord
Jesus freak


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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: skinnyone]
#17222287 - 11/15/12 12:38 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
skinnyone said:
Quote:
JesusIsLord said:
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Sheekle said: I made a thread like this in the philosophy forum a while back maybe i shoulda posted it in the pub : apparently it's a thoroughly explored topic in there
Quote:
JesusIsLord said: How does this take into account people who risk their lives to help others?
There are many, many, many truly selfless acts - the kind where people know they have nothing to gain from it but see they are in a position to help. Maybe you just live in a city full of so many cut throat people you can't see it.
You can be surrounded by loving people who put other people's needs before their own and this topic would be valid/ it would still be arguable that these driven by their own selfish wants
If someone is in a situation where they face death and decide to save someone elses life, where is the selfishness?
Honestly the idea that we are all selfish ego driven jerks is foolish sounding to me. I've seen too many people, personally, put their livelihood and indeed their lives at risk to help others to believe that crap.
I'm not suggesting we are jerks. If you believe that the idea that we are entirely selfish makes us jerks, your going to be much less likely to even consider the possibility. As I originally stated, there are positive selfish acts, as putting your "livelihood and indeed...lives at risk to help others" is. The fundamental piece of this is that every action is precedeed by a want, and that want is of the self. Look at the basic idea of action theory and you can see this.
Sure, but we are always the reference point upon which any idea or action is conceived. If that's your definition of selfish it's kind of hard to argue as that is the only mechanism by which any action can be taken.
The outcome of the action is generally what we use to determine whether someone is selfish or selfless. As in, who did you intend to benefit by that action.
I mean it's just a bit absurd making the connection to being selfish because the self has to make originating decisions. That's just intrinsic and goes without saying.
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And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.
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jffdjt23231256
Feelsgoodman.jpg :3



Registered: 10/04/11
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: skinnyone]
#17222297 - 11/15/12 12:42 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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This is a very cyncial way to look at it.
But you're right.
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moonrockmushy
High on Spite



Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 19,068
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: skinnyone] 1
#17222366 - 11/15/12 01:12 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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If you believe this then it will come down to how you define "self".
Are we only our sense of self righteousness? Does the self extend into our actions, the things we create, the things we say?
Where do I begin? Can I possibly care about something as my "self" that isn't my physical body?
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koods
Ribbit



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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: Hakim0777]
#17222544 - 11/15/12 02:28 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hakim0777 said: Taking care of my son is selfless
This is only true if you have absolutely no stake in doing so. If you like it, hate it, feel it is your responsibility, etc... Than it is not selfless.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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venetianblinds
cabbage


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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: koods]
#17222554 - 11/15/12 02:33 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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are you a parent koods? do you know what you are talking about?
-------------------- How do you know but ev’ry Bird that cuts the airy way, Is an immense world of delight, clos’d by your senses five?
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koods
Ribbit



Registered: 05/26/11
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: venetianblinds]
#17222594 - 11/15/12 02:47 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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venetianblinds said: are you a parent koods? do you know what you are talking about?
Why does that matter? If you have an investment in what you are doing, it is not selfless.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Zoboomafoo
Observer


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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: skinnyone]
#17223945 - 11/15/12 11:56 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
skinnyone said:
Quote:
Zoboomafoo said: Like i explained, answering yes is the only answer path selflessness. Answering no or not answering at all is selfish, therefore, my only chance at selflessness is the only other option- yes.
Returning to the neutral state, which is how i felt before i was asked the question (the impossibility to desire satisfaction to a question that had not yet been asked) is the only way to be free of fault while maintaining selflessness. How can i feel happy about something that which has not yet happened? That is the neutral state.
Your happiness or your being right aren't the only tenants of the act being selfish. I like the way you are working the argument, more than anything I've seen thus far, but I still disagree.
You desired to return to the neutral state. You desired to say yes. You wanted to say yes. If not, what forced you to?
You are overlooking the essence of the question itself-- the question desires the answer and will be answered no matter what.
This is not a matter of me desiring to return to the neutral state. The answer 'yes' is derived from the impossibility of the two negative answers (both of which are wrong and selfish), and the most important factor is, remember, that the question will be answered-- this is the reason why 'yes' is the only possible answer to selflessness because it is neither selfish, wrong, or right-- it returns me to the neutral state.
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Skatistan: Afghanistan is rad
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crackawebsta
The Near Future



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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: Zoboomafoo]
#17225930 - 11/15/12 07:15 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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People perform selfless acts all the time. . .while they are sleeping/ unconscious/ in a coma. But you can't be conscious and selfless. The very core of our ego is consciousness.
If you are aware of your "self," you are being selfish in a sense
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"It's all just a dream, babe A vacuum, a scheme, babe That sucks you into feelin' like this."
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Zoboomafoo
Observer


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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: crackawebsta]
#17225979 - 11/15/12 07:25 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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crackawebsta said: People perform selfless acts all the time. . .while they are sleeping/ unconscious/ in a coma. But you can't be conscious and selfless. The very core of our ego is consciousness.
If you are aware of your "self," you are being selfish in a sense
No, sleeping is a means to and end-- homeostasis. Same with breathing.
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Skatistan: Afghanistan is rad
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jewunit
Brutal!


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Posts: 34,264
Loc: Ohio
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: skinnyone]
#17225995 - 11/15/12 07:29 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Desires don't have to be selfish. Doing the "right thing" doesn't have to bring satisfaction.
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crackawebsta
The Near Future



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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: Zoboomafoo]
#17226725 - 11/15/12 10:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Zoboomafoo said:
Quote:
crackawebsta said: People perform selfless acts all the time. . .while they are sleeping/ unconscious/ in a coma. But you can't be conscious and selfless. The very core of our ego is consciousness.
If you are aware of your "self," you are being selfish in a sense
No, sleeping is a means to and end-- homeostasis. Same with breathing.
I'm not talking about the act of going to sleep. I mean that whilst one is sleeping, he is in a state of selflessness. A person still exists while asleep, yet they cannot act on a desire. They can only exist physically. I would even go as far as to say that sleepwalkers are acting completely selflessly. Unconsciously putting your mom's purse in the freezer is an action completely unprovoked by self interest.
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"It's all just a dream, babe A vacuum, a scheme, babe That sucks you into feelin' like this."
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crackawebsta
The Near Future



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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: crackawebsta]
#17226732 - 11/15/12 10:20 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Other than that though, I would agree with OP
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"It's all just a dream, babe A vacuum, a scheme, babe That sucks you into feelin' like this."
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Deekay



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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: skinnyone] 1
#17226760 - 11/15/12 10:34 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Hey OP
After Hurricane Sandy I was walking around my city past a Vietnam Memorial and saw the fake flowers strewn about. I put them all back upright in their pots near the memorial. No one was around to see, no one knows about it except me and whoever happens to read this. What desires did I fulfill?
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shivas.wisdom
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: Deekay] 1
#17226766 - 11/15/12 10:36 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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An act done by a being who has transcended ego would be selfless--but otherwise, I agree.
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crackawebsta
The Near Future



Registered: 12/17/06
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: Deekay]
#17226979 - 11/15/12 11:18 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deekay said: Hey OP
After Hurricane Sandy I was walking around my city past a Vietnam Memorial and saw the fake flowers strewn about. I put them all back upright in their pots near the memorial. No one was around to see, no one knows about it except me and whoever happens to read this. What desires did I fulfill? 
You didn't want the flowers strewn about. You desired them to be upright in their pots. You fulfilled this desire by putting them back in their place.
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"It's all just a dream, babe A vacuum, a scheme, babe That sucks you into feelin' like this."
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crackawebsta
The Near Future



Registered: 12/17/06
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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: crackawebsta] 1
#17226984 - 11/15/12 11:19 PM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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"It's all just a dream, babe A vacuum, a scheme, babe That sucks you into feelin' like this."
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Zoboomafoo
Observer


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Re: There is no such thing as a selfless act [Re: crackawebsta]
#17229151 - 11/16/12 11:11 AM (11 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
crackawebsta said:
Quote:
Zoboomafoo said:
Quote:
crackawebsta said: People perform selfless acts all the time. . .while they are sleeping/ unconscious/ in a coma. But you can't be conscious and selfless. The very core of our ego is consciousness.
If you are aware of your "self," you are being selfish in a sense
No, sleeping is a means to and end-- homeostasis. Same with breathing.
I'm not talking about the act of going to sleep. I mean that whilst one is sleeping, he is in a state of selflessness. A person still exists while asleep, yet they cannot act on a desire. They can only exist physically. I would even go as far as to say that sleepwalkers are acting completely selflessly. Unconsciously putting your mom's purse in the freezer is an action completely unprovoked by self interest.
My argument still stands. Maintaining homeostasis is the essence of selfishness.
I had a dream last night full of desire and pleasure. Does the dimension in which the actions take place make a difference? No.
Everything about sleeping is selfish.
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Skatistan: Afghanistan is rad
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