Home | Community | Message Board


This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]
Some of these posts are very old and might contain outdated information. You may wish to search for newer posts instead.
InvisibleFrankHorrigan
The Inquisition
Male


Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
Trusted Cultivator
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17256208 - 11/20/12 11:49 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Trippy_Smurf said:
This topic has been covered many times.  Use the search engine and you'll find several threads pointing out why a hepa filter in a SAB/GB is a horrible idea.




:whathesaid:
Hell, this thread covers why it's a bad idea too.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
Trusted Cultivator
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: FrankHorrigan] * 1
    #17256365 - 11/21/12 12:29 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

This thread will be made again in a month, and this same discussion will happen. I've been a part of a few of these discussions already.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offline11111
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 120
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #17256592 - 11/21/12 02:33 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)



This is my THIRD time ever pouring agar in petri dishes in a Glovebox. Not pictured are countless successful Grain to Grain Qt. transfers. So i would not understand why some one would want to move air around in a "still air box." I'm a noob, but i've used the search function and researched alot on this site to say that would be a bad idea.

The strain is cubensis and pictured is the 2nd agar dish that the strain has been on. they are on the third dish now and i think i am close to a mono culture. love my cheap glovebox!  :chugbeer: (i will admit to getting about 4 dishes out of 30-40 contaminated so far with the glovebox, but could easily isolate away if i wanted...)

if anything, i am going to use my hepa fan inside the area my mono tubs will be in...

Edited by 11111 (11/21/12 02:34 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleTheEaglesGift
The Nagual


Registered: 04/10/11
Posts: 10,554
Loc: Ixtlan, Mexico
Trusted Cultivator
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: 11111]
    #17256643 - 11/21/12 03:02 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The strain is cubensis




The species is cubensis.

Nice plates. :thumbup: By the 10th pour you'll be able to do it while asleep.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offline11111
Stranger
 User Gallery
Registered: 12/16/11
Posts: 120
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: TheEaglesGift]
    #17256662 - 11/21/12 03:20 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

TheEaglesGift said:
Quote:

The strain is cubensis




The species is cubensis.

Nice plates. :thumbup: By the 10th pour you'll be able to do it while asleep.




excuse me! long time  :leaf: grower  :bigjoint:

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleFrankHorrigan
The Inquisition
Male


Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
Trusted Cultivator
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: 11111]
    #17258022 - 11/21/12 11:08 AM (11 years, 4 months ago)

You'll probably need 5-6 transfers to see sectoring and make proper isolates.


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlue Unicorn
Mushroom Ginny Pig
Male

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 46
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: TheUnknownPoet]
    #17269381 - 11/23/12 02:50 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

I don't understand the theory behind working in front of a flood hood, after the flow hood has been running awhile, as was demonstrated in the Lets Grow Mushrooms video.

I am quite sure it has been discussed a million times and will be discussed a million more.

Here is what makes no sense about it to me.  The flow hood sucks air into it; and with a HEPA filter in front of it, it filters the air going through it.  I would agree that the air blown out of the flow hood is clean air.  But flow hood advocates suggest to work in front of the flow hood.  That air is dirty, and will be dirty until such time as it is displaced by clean air.  According to the Mushroom Cultivator book I have, there are 300,000 airborne particulates in every square inch of unfiltered air. 

In order to actually reap the benefits of the HEPA filter, I would argue that you need to actually be able to work in the air that has already been cleaned by the HEPA filter.  I could see that being accomplished in two ways:  1).  In a containment, be it a glovebox or otherwise, you have a vacuum pulling air into the box on one side, and an opening covered by a HEPA filter on the opposite side, so that the air coming into the box is cleaned; or 2).  Rather than a vacuum, a small, negative pressure fan could be used in place of a vacuum, where air is sucked into the fan, through a HEPA filter, on one side of the box, then would travel through ducting (or tubing) to the other side of the box, and attach to the other opening, again, delivering clean air into the box (the air that was cleaned after it passed through the HEPA filter. 

As another poster pointed out, HEPA glove boxes are an actual product on the market.  They cost a shit ton of money though, just like a lot of medical equipment.  Literally, in the $10,000 range.  Ridiculous.

Granted, this level of sterility is not required for what most people here need to do, and a simple still air box would suffice.  But I just do not understand how a flow hood is going to help anyone, in theory, without some way of actually being able to work within the clean air which is sent out the discharge side and away from your work area.

Take a look down in your crawlspaces at the way your homes are heated with forced air.  Those are set up so that air is filtered before it even gets into the heater.  Doing innoculations and mycelium transfers in front of a flow hood is like taking the filter out from in front of your furnace heater at home and sticking it on the vent outside your house, so that clean air blows outside your home.  It's backwards.  At least, that is how I see it.

If anyone who uses a flowhood can point out how that is a benefit, I would like to know, because I do not get it.  The dirty air being sucked into the flow hood is replaced by dirty air without some kind of return.


--------------------
I know all about what you want to know all about---Ottis

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflinePussyFart
Retired Cultivation Extrodinaire
Male


Registered: 04/08/12
Posts: 22,502
Loc: Orbiting Earth
Last seen: 2 months, 14 days
Trusted Cultivator
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17269409 - 11/23/12 02:58 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Unicorn said:

Here is what makes no sense about it to me.  The flow hood sucks air into it; and with a HEPA filter in front of it, it filters the air going through it.  I would agree that the air blown out of the flow hood is clean air.  But flow hood advocates suggest to work in front of the flow hood.  That air is dirty, and will be dirty until such time as it is displaced by clean air.  According to the Mushroom Cultivator book I have, there are 300,000 airborne particulates in every square inch of unfiltered air. 




:facepalm: Flow hoods don not suck in air from the HEPA filter...it blows out thru the filter, so when u work in front of it your working in clean air.

Think about the blower moving air in the opposite direction you are currently thinking of, blowing air into the box, and then thru the huge filter...then it would make sense to work in front of it right? In the sterile air flow?

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
Male


Registered: 11/10/05
Posts: 9,300
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: PussyFart]
    #17270676 - 11/23/12 07:31 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

:facepalm:


:grin:

Yes, laminar flow will be coming down from the filter and out through the opening.

As far as the hepa glove box comment, the reply seems right in that hepa glove boxes are generally used to keep things in, not out.

But, I still think using a hepa filter to clean the air prior to working isn't a 'terrible' idea. I'm in no rush to build one and wouldn't recommend people go out and buy filters for that purpose. It seems un-necessary to me, though reducing the particle count to class 10 or whatever isn't 'bad'.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinec0ri
 User Gallery

Registered: 08/08/12
Posts: 376
Last seen: 11 years, 3 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Rahz]
    #17271275 - 11/23/12 09:28 PM (11 years, 4 months ago)

Which is why I said adding a box with nothing on each long end so that the filter blows clean air through it, and it would give you a clean surface to work on and keep any particles from falling down into the air stream from above or through the sides. It's basically the same concept of the regular flow hood but add's a box around the area that air flows through for extra protection from contaminants.

See my picture earlier in thread.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlue Unicorn
Mushroom Ginny Pig
Male

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 46
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: PussyFart]
    #17309609 - 11/30/12 02:50 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Notahacker420 said:
Quote:

Blue Unicorn said:

Here is what makes no sense about it to me.  The flow hood sucks air into it; and with a HEPA filter in front of it, it filters the air going through it.  I would agree that the air blown out of the flow hood is clean air.  But flow hood advocates suggest to work in front of the flow hood.  That air is dirty, and will be dirty until such time as it is displaced by clean air.  According to the Mushroom Cultivator book I have, there are 300,000 airborne particulates in every square inch of unfiltered air. 




:facepalm: Flow hoods don not suck in air from the HEPA filter...it blows out thru the filter, so when u work in front of it your working in clean air.

Think about the blower moving air in the opposite direction you are currently thinking of, blowing air into the box, and then thru the huge filter...then it would make sense to work in front of it right? In the sterile air flow?




Ah....ok.  That would make sense.


--------------------
I know all about what you want to know all about---Ottis

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineskippydude
Myco-curious
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 1,827
Loc: "Alice's Wonderland"
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17309710 - 11/30/12 03:13 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

:sploosh:

Get some sleep!
Your over thinking it.

SAB = Still air box
Fan + or - hepa filter = contamination

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlue Unicorn
Mushroom Ginny Pig
Male

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 46
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: skippydude]
    #17337640 - 12/05/12 10:34 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

skippydude said:
:sploosh:

Get some sleep!
Your over thinking it.

SAB = Still air box
Fan  or - hepa filter = contamination




I have been told I over-think before, and I do have a hard time sleeping.  So you got me pegged right on those accounts.

However, even if a flow hood blows clean air back at you, there is still nothing to stop dirty air from coming back immediately, and a flowhood also has a fan, so the same logic of a fan equalling contamination applies to a flow hood too.  I can see the logic of saying a still air box is better than a HEPA filtered flow hood, due to air disburbance, and would probably agree with that. 

So now compare a still air box with a glovebox equipt with HEPA air filtration, where the air is filtered before work begins.  Even though a still air box has no air flow, it still has airborne particulates.  Those do not simply disappear in a still air box.  A glovebox or working containment which pulls air through a HEPA filter scrubs the air of airborne particulates.  How much airborne particulates are removed depends upon the filter's micron allowances (commonly,  99.97% effective down to a tiny fraction of one micron).  The question is, am I bullshitting you guys?  All I can tell you is what I know.  I have worked inside of HEPA filtered containments, as well as gloveboxes and glovebags, not for mycology, but for removing asbestos, berryllium particulates (which are arguably as dangerous as asbestos) and even in department of energy facilities containing radioactive contamination.  I have seen industrial hygienists use particle counters inside an outside of HEPA air filtered containments, and I KNOW that the air is exponentially cleaner in a HEPA air filtered containment than in a containment without HEPA air filtration.  But even if I had never seen difference on a particle counter, logic tells you this much.  A still air box is not clean air; it is dirty air without air flow. 

To the people who said this thread proves otherwise, I do not see that it does.

I tell ya.  Maybe I will buy a particle counter and video the comparison.  Perhaps if it is done here the proof cannot be dismissed as vacuum cleaner salesman propaganda.  Also, the idea behind a HEPA air filtered glovebox is to scrub the air...then let the air sit and become still before working in it.  If used properly, it would be a still air box too, except the still air is clean, rather than unclean.

But anyways, thanks Skip for civilly making your points.


--------------------
I know all about what you want to know all about---Ottis

Edited by Blue Unicorn (12/05/12 10:48 AM)

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleFrankHorrigan
The Inquisition
Male


Registered: 01/04/11
Posts: 10,573
Trusted Cultivator
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17337799 - 12/05/12 11:09 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

A still air box is CLEAN air because of the lack of airflow.
Do some work in your HEPA box and let us know how it goes :thumbup:


--------------------

Yes, you can bump my old threads with a question.
Here is how I get things done.
You should take a look. :hehehe:


Frank's tips and tricks. Updated on 3/21/14
AMU- Get an answer here -AMU

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTheCyndicate
Conglomerate
Male User Gallery


Registered: 10/16/11
Posts: 1,195
Loc: Outer Haven
Last seen: 5 years, 10 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17337924 - 12/05/12 11:29 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Unicorn said:
Quote:

skippydude said:
:sploosh:

Get some sleep!
Your over thinking it.

SAB = Still air box
Fan  or - hepa filter = contamination




I have been told I over-think before, and I do have a hard time sleeping.  So you got me pegged right on those accounts.

However, even if a flow hood blows clean air back at you, there is still nothing to stop dirty air from coming back immediately, and a flowhood also has a fan, so the same logic of a fan equalling contamination applies to a flow hood too.  I can see the logic of saying a still air box is better than a HEPA filtered flow hood, due to air disburbance, and would probably agree with that. 

So now compare a still air box with a glovebox equipt with HEPA air filtration, where the air is filtered before work begins.  Even though a still air box has no air flow, it still has airborne particulates.  Those do not simply disappear in a still air box.  A glovebox or working containment which pulls air through a HEPA filter scrubs the air of airborne particulates.  How much airborne particulates are removed depends upon the filter's micron allowances (commonly,  99.97% effective down to a tiny fraction of one micron).  The question is, am I bullshitting you guys?  All I can tell you is what I know.  I have worked inside of HEPA filtered containments, as well as gloveboxes and glovebags, not for mycology, but for removing asbestos, berryllium particulates (which are arguably as dangerous as asbestos) and even in department of energy facilities containing radioactive contamination.  I have seen industrial hygienists use particle counters inside an outside of HEPA air filtered containments, and I KNOW that the air is exponentially cleaner in a HEPA air filtered containment than in a containment without HEPA air filtration.  But even if I had never seen difference on a particle counter, logic tells you this much.  A still air box is not clean air; it is dirty air without air flow. 

To the people who said this thread proves otherwise, I do not see that it does.

I tell ya.  Maybe I will buy a particle counter and video the comparison.  Perhaps if it is done here the proof cannot be dismissed as vacuum cleaner salesman propaganda.  Also, the idea behind a HEPA air filtered glovebox is to scrub the air...then let the air sit and become still before working in it.  If used properly, it would be a still air box too, except the still air is clean, rather than unclean.

But anyways, thanks Skip for civilly making your points.





The point of a laminar Flow Hood is that it moves air out of the filter face at a given feet per min .        According to Stamets (Paul Stamets and J.S.Chilton: The Mushroom Cultivator p. 347 ff) the air speed of the air flowing from the filter surface should be (at least) 100 feet per minute(fpm).(around 30 meter per minute or 0.5 meter per second).

once the flow hood has been running at least an hour the air is Scrubbed well enough  to fallow proper sterile inoculation  procedures.

Cyn

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTrippy_Smurf
Sketchy Mother Fucker
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Smurf Villiage Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17337953 - 12/05/12 11:34 AM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Unicorn said:
However, even if a flow hood blows clean air back at you, there is still nothing to stop dirty air from coming back immediately, and a flowhood also has a fan, so the same logic of a fan equalling contamination applies to a flow hood too.  I can see the logic of saying a still air box is better than a HEPA filtered flow hood, due to air disburbance, and would probably agree with that. 

So now compare a still air box with a glovebox equipt with HEPA air filtration, where the air is filtered before work begins.  Even though a still air box has no air flow, it still has airborne particulates.  Those do not simply disappear in a still air box.  A glovebox or working containment which pulls air through a HEPA filter scrubs the air of airborne particulates.  How much airborne particulates are removed depends upon the filter's micron allowances (commonly,  99.97% effective down to a tiny fraction of one micron).  The question is, am I bullshitting you guys?  All I can tell you is what I know.  I have worked inside of HEPA filtered containments, as well as gloveboxes and glovebags, not for mycology, but for removing asbestos, berryllium particulates (which are arguably as dangerous as asbestos) and even in department of energy facilities containing radioactive contamination.  I have seen industrial hygienists use particle counters inside an outside of HEPA air filtered containments, and I KNOW that the air is exponentially cleaner in a HEPA air filtered containment than in a containment without HEPA air filtration.  But even if I had never seen difference on a particle counter, logic tells you this much.  A still air box is not clean air; it is dirty air without air flow. 

I tell ya.  Maybe I will buy a particle counter and video the comparison.  Perhaps if it is done here the proof cannot be dismissed as vacuum cleaner salesman propaganda.  Also, the idea behind a HEPA air filtered glovebox is to scrub the air...then let the air sit and become still before working in it.  If used properly, it would be a still air box too, except the still air is clean, rather than unclean.

But anyways, thanks Skip for civilly making your points.




A still air box is NOT better than a laminar flow hood.

A laminar flow hood blows a laminar flow of air, meaning that it's even pressure across the entire face of the filter, so there are no eddie currents, and therefore no dirty air being pulled back in.  With a HEPA filter, you could have the filthiest fan in the world and the air coming out the front of the filter, so what you're saying about a fan equaling contamination is untrue.

Before you start working in a SAB, you spray alcohol, or lysol, or some other disinfectant, which binds to airborne particles and pulls them to the floor.  Yes, there are still airborne contaminates, but not a lot.

Unless you have an aerodynamic box, with no corners or rough edges, a HEPA filter will not completely clean the air.  Additionally, you would need laminar flow with a filter the same size as the end of your box, and if you're going to spend the money to do all that, you're better off just building a LFH and no worry about the box, with just limits your movements and provides places for contaminants to gather.


--------------------
SECURITY:  READ THIS!


Chef:  Kids, what did I tell you about drugs?
Kids:  There's a time and a place for everything, and it's called college.

How to be a good shroomie    How to grow mushrooms    A collection of good links (may be outdated)    How things should look    How to pass a drug test


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleBlue Unicorn
Mushroom Ginny Pig
Male

Registered: 10/27/12
Posts: 46
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Trippy_Smurf]
    #17338235 - 12/05/12 12:21 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Trippy_Smurf said:
Quote:

Blue Unicorn said:
However, even if a flow hood blows clean air back at you, there is still nothing to stop dirty air from coming back immediately, and a flowhood also has a fan, so the same logic of a fan equalling contamination applies to a flow hood too.  I can see the logic of saying a still air box is better than a HEPA filtered flow hood, due to air disburbance, and would probably agree with that. 

So now compare a still air box with a glovebox equipt with HEPA air filtration, where the air is filtered before work begins.  Even though a still air box has no air flow, it still has airborne particulates.  Those do not simply disappear in a still air box.  A glovebox or working containment which pulls air through a HEPA filter scrubs the air of airborne particulates.  How much airborne particulates are removed depends upon the filter's micron allowances (commonly,  99.97% effective down to a tiny fraction of one micron).  The question is, am I bullshitting you guys?  All I can tell you is what I know.  I have worked inside of HEPA filtered containments, as well as gloveboxes and glovebags, not for mycology, but for removing asbestos, berryllium particulates (which are arguably as dangerous as asbestos) and even in department of energy facilities containing radioactive contamination.  I have seen industrial hygienists use particle counters inside an outside of HEPA air filtered containments, and I KNOW that the air is exponentially cleaner in a HEPA air filtered containment than in a containment without HEPA air filtration.  But even if I had never seen difference on a particle counter, logic tells you this much.  A still air box is not clean air; it is dirty air without air flow. 

I tell ya.  Maybe I will buy a particle counter and video the comparison.  Perhaps if it is done here the proof cannot be dismissed as vacuum cleaner salesman propaganda.  Also, the idea behind a HEPA air filtered glovebox is to scrub the air...then let the air sit and become still before working in it.  If used properly, it would be a still air box too, except the still air is clean, rather than unclean.

But anyways, thanks Skip for civilly making your points.




A still air box is NOT better than a laminar flow hood.

A laminar flow hood blows a laminar flow of air, meaning that it's even pressure across the entire face of the filter, so there are no eddie currents, and therefore no dirty air being pulled back in.  With a HEPA filter, you could have the filthiest fan in the world and the air coming out the front of the filter, so what you're saying about a fan equaling contamination is untrue.

Before you start working in a SAB, you spray alcohol, or lysol, or some other disinfectant, which binds to airborne particles and pulls them to the floor.  Yes, there are still airborne contaminates, but not a lot.

Unless you have an aerodynamic box, with no corners or rough edges, a HEPA filter will not completely clean the air.  Additionally, you would need laminar flow with a filter the same size as the end of your box, and if you're going to spend the money to do all that, you're better off just building a LFH and no worry about the box, with just limits your movements and provides places for contaminants to gather.




http://www.laboratory-supply.net/gloveboxes/closed_loop_glovebox.html

How is dirty air in a still air box better than clean air in a HEPA filtered glovebox, where you let the air become still before working?  Take the design in the above link, for example, or even a different design where the clean air is returned.

As for the still air verses flow hood, I really am not interested in knowing which one works best because I still do not see any reason why a HEPA filtered glovebox would not be the most effective means.  However, there are some things that stand out about a still air box, like the ability as you mentioned to stop air drafts, to bind particulates with mists from cleaning agents, all of which you can and should also do in a HEPA filtered glovebox.  Doing so in either a still air box, or in a HEPA air filtered glove box is obviously good practice but like you say it does not remove all of the particulates.  Nor does a HEPA filter: a HEPA filter will still leave behind 1.03 % of all particulates greater than .03 or so microns and it leaves all particulates smaller than that.  But a HEPA filter is better than no filter, and cleaning with alcohol and lysol is better than not cleaning.  And, in my opinion, a closed loop system where clean air is recycled in a glovebox through HEPA filtration is better than a flowhood system where dirty air quickly replaces clean air, because of a lack of a closed loop air return. 

You may be right about a flowhood being better than a still air box.  Who knows.  Without a controlled experiment using a particle counter to measure success, it is just theory, backed by experience sometimes, which can be influenced by luck. 

Does a fan equal contamination?  It sounded as if that is what Skip said; I should have said I do not disagree with that rather than I agree. 

We are talking about several different thigs here, and it is easy to confuse them.  So lets pose the question like this. 

1.  Does dirty, but still air contain more airborne particulates than clean, still air?  No brainer, IMO.

2.  Does dirty, still air, partially scrubbed with lysol,  contain more airborne particulates than previously cleaned but now possibly contaminated, flowing air?  Hymm.  Arguable. 

Not everyone has the money for buying or constructing a HEPA filtered glovebox.  I can see that.  But I still see the advantage of a closed loop system where clean air is returned, over a flowhood system where clean air is not returned, and there is nothing separating clean air from dirty air.


--------------------
I know all about what you want to know all about---Ottis

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisible36fuckin5
Alchemycologist


Registered: 08/11/03
Posts: 12,083
Loc: Diving into Mystical Territori...
Trusted Cultivator
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17338242 - 12/05/12 12:23 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Unicorn said:
However, even if a flow hood blows clean air back at you, there is still nothing to stop dirty air from coming back immediately, and a flowhood also has a fan, so the same logic of a fan equalling contamination applies to a flow hood too.




The flow of air is what stops contaminants from landing on your media. Since it's completely constant and steady, the other currents in the air can't break it unless they're fairly strong. You're supposed to cut off all fans except the flowhood when you use it.

Quote:

I can see the logic of saying a still air box is better than a HEPA filtered flow hood, due to air disburbance, and would probably agree with that.




Not true. I've used both extensively and I can tell you that, without a doubt, a proper flowhood is the absolute best thing to work in. SABs have their place though. They're good for things like transferring mycelium away from contams on agar or making clean spore prints.

You wouldn't want to do either of those in front of a hood. Not because it's not clean enough, but the flow would blow contam spores all over the place from a dirty plate or if you're printing, there would just be no reason to run the flowhood for 12-24 hours to get a good print.

Quote:

So now compare a still air box with a glovebox equipt with HEPA air filtration, where the air is filtered before work begins.  Even though a still air box has no air flow, it still has airborne particulates.  Those do not simply disappear in a still air box.




No, but when you leave the box slightly wet (I like to use alcohol-soaked paper towels at the bottom) and leave it to sit for 30 minutes, the vast majority of contaminants have fallen out of the air. Not all of them, but enough to allow us to work.

Quote:

A glovebox or working containment which pulls air through a HEPA filter scrubs the air of airborne particulates.  How much airborne particulates are removed depends upon the filter's micron allowances (commonly,  99.97% effective down to a tiny fraction of one micron).




I used to work in front of a ULPA hood. It was 2 feet high by 4 feet long. 99.99% effective down to .1 microns. It was awesome. You know what I found? That filter was expensive as shit and it was overkill for this purpose. A normal HEPA works just as well. Point being that growing mushrooms is fairly easy. Keep it that way.

Quote:

The question is, am I bullshitting you guys?  All I can tell you is what I know.  I have worked inside of HEPA filtered containments, as well as gloveboxes and glovebags, not for mycology, but for removing asbestos, berryllium particulates (which are arguably as dangerous as asbestos) and even in department of energy facilities containing radioactive contamination.  I have seen industrial hygienists use particle counters inside an outside of HEPA air filtered containments, and I KNOW that the air is exponentially cleaner in a HEPA air filtered containment than in a containment without HEPA air filtration.  But even if I had never seen difference on a particle counter, logic tells you this much.  A still air box is not clean air; it is dirty air without air flow. 




You're correct. You're just making things harder than they need to be.

Quote:

To the people who said this thread proves otherwise, I do not see that it does.

I tell ya.  Maybe I will buy a particle counter and video the comparison.  Perhaps if it is done here the proof cannot be dismissed as vacuum cleaner salesman propaganda.




Do it! I'd love to see this. I've always thought that a laminar flowhood with basically a big Plexiglas box built into the front of it would be great.

Quote:

Also, the idea behind a HEPA air filtered glovebox is to scrub the air...then let the air sit and become still before working in it.  If used properly, it would be a still air box too, except the still air is clean, rather than unclean.




If you already have the stuff, try it. Do a side-by-side comparison. Make a thread for suggestions on ways to control variables. Make this legit. I'll definitely help.

I actually use this.


--------------------
Redd Foxx said:
If you're offended I don't give a shit and don't come see me no more.

Pat The Bunny said:
A punk rock song won't ever change the world, but I can tell you about a couple that changed me.

bodhisatta said:
i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
OfflineTrippy_Smurf
Sketchy Mother Fucker
Male User Gallery


Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 02/14/11
Posts: 2,349
Loc: Smurf Villiage Flag
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #17338329 - 12/05/12 12:43 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

I'm not going to argue anymore.  I'm done with this thread.


--------------------
SECURITY:  READ THIS!


Chef:  Kids, what did I tell you about drugs?
Kids:  There's a time and a place for everything, and it's called college.

How to be a good shroomie    How to grow mushrooms    A collection of good links (may be outdated)    How things should look    How to pass a drug test


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlineskippydude
Myco-curious
Male User Gallery


Registered: 09/08/12
Posts: 1,827
Loc: "Alice's Wonderland"
Last seen: 9 years, 3 months
Re: HEPA Filtered Glovebox [Re: Blue Unicorn]
    #17338345 - 12/05/12 12:46 PM (11 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Blue Unicorn said:
Quote:

skippydude said:
:sploosh:

Get some sleep!
Your over thinking it.

SAB = Still air box
Fan  or - hepa filter = contamination




I have been told I over-think before, and I do have a hard time sleeping.  So you got me pegged right on those accounts.

However, even if a flow hood blows clean air back at you, there is still nothing to stop dirty air from coming back immediately, and a flowhood also has a fan, so the same logic of a fan equalling contamination applies to a flow hood too.  I can see the logic of saying a still air box is better than a HEPA filtered flow hood, due to air disburbance, and would probably agree with that. 

So now compare a still air box with a glovebox equipt with HEPA air filtration, where the air is filtered before work begins.  Even though a still air box has no air flow, it still has airborne particulates.  Those do not simply disappear in a still air box.  A glovebox or working containment which pulls air through a HEPA filter scrubs the air of airborne particulates.  How much airborne particulates are removed depends upon the filter's micron allowances (commonly,  99.97% effective down to a tiny fraction of one micron).  The question is, am I bullshitting you guys?  All I can tell you is what I know.  I have worked inside of HEPA filtered containments, as well as gloveboxes and glovebags, not for mycology, but for removing asbestos, berryllium particulates (which are arguably as dangerous as asbestos) and even in department of energy facilities containing radioactive contamination.  I have seen industrial hygienists use particle counters inside an outside of HEPA air filtered containments, and I KNOW that the air is exponentially cleaner in a HEPA air filtered containment than in a containment without HEPA air filtration.  But even if I had never seen difference on a particle counter, logic tells you this much.  A still air box is not clean air; it is dirty air without air flow. 

To the people who said this thread proves otherwise, I do not see that it does.

I tell ya.  Maybe I will buy a particle counter and video the comparison.  Perhaps if it is done here the proof cannot be dismissed as vacuum cleaner salesman propaganda.  Also, the idea behind a HEPA air filtered glovebox is to scrub the air...then let the air sit and become still before working in it.  If used properly, it would be a still air box too, except the still air is clean, rather than unclean.

But anyways, thanks Skip for civilly making your points.




Sorry to be nasty:bigkiss:

Constructive criticism has been coming out of me as plain criticism lately, my bad!

Just saying I think your wasting time trying to re invent the wheel.

SAB needs no improvement.

Your efforts and cash would be better spent on FH construction.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: < Back | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | Next >  [ show all ]

Shop: MagicBag.co All-In-One Bags That Don't Suck   PhytoExtractum Maeng Da Thai Kratom Leaf Powder   Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Left Coast Kratom Buy Kratom Extract   Mushroom-Hut Mono Tub Substrate   Original Sensible Seeds Bulk Cannabis Seeds   Myyco.com Isolated Cubensis Liquid Culture For Sale   North Spore Bulk Substrate   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* HEPA Filter, Glovebox Wheedhead! 1,922 3 11/14/02 03:02 AM
by Anno
* Building a glovebox, need a hepa filter Rohypnol 2,572 14 08/28/03 11:12 AM
by screaminsemen
* How big is this hepa filter? Rohypnol 890 2 11/08/03 02:03 PM
by llamaboy
* Need a good HEPA filter... krill 2,907 17 04/01/07 01:56 PM
by flushme
* HEPA Filter.... Which flippin' side!? Funger 1,013 4 10/24/23 09:16 AM
by xVadisx
* Using a hepa filter on jars... Rohypnol 1,224 6 09/05/03 08:44 AM
by UrbanistiC
* Best place to get hepa filters ryan 7,657 12 11/23/04 11:18 AM
by ryan
* How to built a HEPA filter? FreeSporePrints 2,624 15 10/06/06 12:17 PM
by FreeSporePrints

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Shroomism, george castanza, RogerRabbit, veggie, mushboy, fahtster, LogicaL Chaos, 13shrooms, Stipe-n Cap, Pastywhyte, bodhisatta, Tormato, Land Trout, A.k.a
9,377 topic views. 30 members, 140 guests and 77 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.032 seconds spending 0.011 seconds on 15 queries.