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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: Aiko Aiko]
    #17190623 - 11/09/12 03:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
Haha ok, cause I just made that up, actually fox news just made that up that Bush  gets all the blame... And my GF is a flaming liberal ironically, so trust me, I get "both sides." It makes for some interesting dinner convo, thats for sure! :cool:



No one rational places the entire blame solely on Bush, rational people realize it's much more complex than that.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,825
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190634 - 11/09/12 03:16 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
Haha ok, cause I just made that up, actually fox news just made that up that Bush  gets all the blame... And my GF is a flaming liberal ironically, so trust me, I get "both sides." It makes for some interesting dinner convo, thats for sure! :cool:



No one rational places the entire blame solely on Bush, rational people realize it's much more complex than that.





And logical people understand the economey is not on the god damn upswing.

Come on man where is the proof on such a thing? How can you seriously believe this?


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: DeadHearts] * 1
    #17190683 - 11/09/12 03:25 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DeadHearts said:
And logical people understand the economey is not on the god damn upswing.

Come on man where is the proof on such a thing? How can you seriously believe this?



Why do you think people are so divided on this issue? It's not just about being rational, it's about where you get your information and your understanding of how the political system works.

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/01/scorecard-economy-obama/

Look at the trends and come to your own conclusion. In almost all of the sections assessed here we're doing better than we were two years ago. That's aside from the national debt which I think is much more difficult than most people believe to actually reduce. No matter how much spending you cut, unless you're going to immediately gut everything and plunge the entire country into a state of economic shock the debt is going to keep building upon itself. That doesn't mean that we're not making progress.

The economic situation we find ourselves in is incredibly complex and you can't just boil it down to, "he's doing a terrible job and it's all his fault." I think in the same situation there's not many people who could do much better.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisibleDeadHearts

Registered: 07/17/09
Posts: 21,825
Loc: MICHIGAN
Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190689 - 11/09/12 03:26 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

DeadHearts said:
And logical people understand the economey is not on the god damn upswing.

Come on man where is the proof on such a thing? How can you seriously believe this?



Why do you think people are so divided on this issue? It's not just about being rational, it's about where you get your information.





I think you hit the nail on the head here.


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OfflineSoreSpore
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190696 - 11/09/12 03:27 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
The economic situation we find ourselves in is incredibly complex and you can't just boil it down to, "he's doing a terrible job and it's all his fault."



"He's not doing the best job he can and that is his fault"
Quote:

I think in the same situation there's not many people who could do much better.



Well, we aren't going to know that because guess what? After 4 years of ass raping we are bending over yet again.


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: SoreSpore]
    #17190732 - 11/09/12 03:34 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SoreSpore said:
"He's not doing the best job he can and that is his fault"



How do you figure that he is not doing the best job that he personally can do?

Quote:

Well, we aren't going to know that because guess what? After 4 years of ass raping we are bending over yet again.



Four years of ass raping? Do you really have to be so closed minded and one sided about this?


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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Offlinefapjack
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: ch1ck3n.s0up] * 5
    #17190775 - 11/09/12 03:40 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

The republican party is too idealistic, they aren't going to win another election until they revamp their platform.  Maybe if the concentrated more on their economic issues instead of their outdated anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-immigration, pro-religion policies they might actually get somewhere.  Also if they actually had a reasonable way to fix the deficit that might help too, but they pander too much to the military and big business to ever let that happen.


--------------------


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190788 - 11/09/12 03:42 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
Wait a minute, so George Bush shouldn't be held responsible, err blamed either by that logic.. you liberals cant have it both ways, sorry :shrug:



I don't think anyone rational places all the blame solely in George Bush.





so obama isnt rational

Quote:

Saying that Obama inherited this mess is true and it's not the same as blaming George Bush for all the world's economic problems.





are you aware that Obama is in fact partially responsible for the mess that
he inherited, not just from his time in the senate but also from his time as
an attorney. the mess that he inherited falls on the clinton administration
but not squarely on clinton, it also falls on the republicans and democrats
in congress at the time, and I'll state it again, it also falls on the
shoulders of barack obama because he was one of the tools suing banks and
forcing them to give home loans to people that couldnt afford to repay the
loans. this led to the sub prime mortgage crisis. clinton strengthened the
CRA which forced the banks to start making the risky loans

http://scottthong.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/obama-sued-bank-to-force-it-to-give-out-risky-housing-loans-precursor-to-subprime-crisis/


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre] * 1
    #17190800 - 11/09/12 03:44 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

Well, we aren't going to know that because guess what? After 4 years of ass raping we are bending over yet again.



Four years of ass raping? Do you really have to be so closed minded and one sided about this?





the spore is not the only thing sore on him :smirk:


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OfflineAiko Aiko
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190809 - 11/09/12 03:45 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Oh it's gonna be an ass raping! How can you say he/we are being so closed minded, you seem to be pretty closed minded for not seeing it from our perspective.

Your so convinced the economy is getting better, have you looked at what the markets have done since Tuesday? That's only a prelude of things to come....

Obama's a fucking joke! He is the poorest excuse for a "leader" we have seen in quite some time. You dont lead by blaming and ostracizing the very people you need to work with to get anything done. He seems to easily forget, or chooses to forget he is only 1/3 of the equation. By his actions, he clearly thinks he has much more power than that. This country is in trouble.. and more government is not the answer!


--------------------
Man says, "God, show me and I will believe." God says, "Believe and I will show you."


Edited by Aiko Aiko (11/09/12 03:50 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190845 - 11/09/12 03:51 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/01/scorecard-economy-obama/





why do people bother with these, the bias is insane, not because it's so
definitely showing one side in a worse light than another but because of
the reasoning behind their 'findings' that expose their bias when they
start actually reading deeper

http://www.politifactbias.com/

in some cases you'd even find that they claims the politicians are making and
showing to be true are "half truth" to start with because the politician isnt
showing why these "facts" read as they do


in case you need more

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/315125/politifiction-editors


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: Aiko Aiko]
    #17190853 - 11/09/12 03:52 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Aiko Aiko said:
Oh it's gonna be an ass raping! How can you say he/we are being so closed minded, you seem to be pretty closed minded for not seeing it from our perspective.

Your so convinced the economy is getting better, have you looked at what the markets have done since Tuesday? That's only a prelude of things to come....

Obabma's a fucking joke! He is the poorest excuse for a "leader" we have seen in quite some time. You dont lead by blaming and ostracizing the very people you need to work with to get anything done. He seems to easily forget, or chooses to forget he is only 1/3 of the equation. By his actions, he clearly thinks he has much more power than that. This country is in trouble.. and more government is not the answer!



No, I am actively trying to understand your positions on this while I'm sharing mine. That's sort of my point in posting in this thread, to further understand where you guys are coming from and to also expose you to my ideas. I'm not saying I'm definitely correct but I do think there's some value and truth in where I'm coming from just like I think you guys have some valid points.

To just say that he's a fucking joke though is closed minded. I see both the positive and negative sides of him as a leader and I personally think there's more positive than negative. I don't think your assessment of him or his actions is very rational to be frank and I think you let your biases cloud your ability to see the other side of things. I may be wrong but that's just what I'm getting from your post which seems to greatly simplify things.

More government isn't the answer but neither is less government, more efficient government is the answer and that's what we should really be focusing on rather than arguing about whether more or less is better.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17190858 - 11/09/12 03:54 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/01/scorecard-economy-obama/





why do people bother with these, the bias is insane, not because it's so
definitely showing one side in a worse light than another but because of
the reasoning behind their 'findings' that expose their bias when they
start actually reading deeper

http://www.politifactbias.com/

in some cases you'd even find that they claims the politicians are making and
showing to be true are "half truth" to start with because the politician isnt
showing why these "facts" read as they do


in case you need more

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/315125/politifiction-editors



Okay, show me a source that is completely without bias then. I'm open to it but I don't think it exists because humans, intentionally or not, insert their own personal biases into everything.

Also I don't think that a source having bias completely removes the legitimacy of it's assertions. I just think it means that evidence needs to be cited and more sources should be considered when making a final opinion/decision.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190877 - 11/09/12 03:57 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
More government isn't the answer but neither is less government, more efficient government is the answer and that's what we should really be focusing on rather than arguing about whether more or less is better.





you cant have more efficient government without trimming a lot away, do we need
the department of homeland security when airports and airlines are privately
owned, it's government security guards for private companies. let the industry
hire their own. welfare money is another source of great waste, not because
poor people receive it but because less than 25% of the money goes where it's
supposed to, the rest is wasted in administration

smaller government is in fact the answer, what we have now isnt sustainable


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OfflineAiko Aiko
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: Prisoner#1] * 1
    #17190890 - 11/09/12 04:01 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

If he presented a positive quality of leadership, I would acknowledge it, I just havent seen it yet.. :shrug: Because he is a slick speaker, doesnt mean he is a good leader in my eyes.

And yes, I truly believe less government is a big part of the solution especially fiscally. You want a more efficient government, reduce the overhead, seems pretty simple to me.

And whats wrong with simplification, I guess I'm just a simple kinda guy... :jah:


--------------------
Man says, "God, show me and I will believe." God says, "Believe and I will show you."


Edited by Aiko Aiko (11/09/12 04:01 PM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre]
    #17190896 - 11/09/12 04:02 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:
Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

JoieDeVivre said:

www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/jun/01/scorecard-economy-obama/





why do people bother with these, the bias is insane, not because it's so
definitely showing one side in a worse light than another but because of
the reasoning behind their 'findings' that expose their bias when they
start actually reading deeper

http://www.politifactbias.com/

in some cases you'd even find that they claims the politicians are making and
showing to be true are "half truth" to start with because the politician isnt
showing why these "facts" read as they do


in case you need more

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/315125/politifiction-editors



Okay, show me a source that is completely without bias then. I'm open to it but I don't think it exists because humans, intentionally or not, insert their own personal biases into everything.

Also I don't think that a source having bias completely removes the legitimacy of it's assertions. I just think it means that evidence needs to be cited and more sources should be considered when making a final opinion/decision.





you clearly didnt read anything there. romney and someone else made virtually
the same statement, romney was listed as a half truth while the other was
listed as mostly true, yet in both instances the real facts arent brought to
light showing that the statement started as less than half true

yes, having too frequent a bias to one side or the other does compromise the
'fact' especially when you look at their justification on how they draw their
conclusions. I read things analytically and I investigate, I dont just read
and regurgitate


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Invisibletyrannicalrex
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Registered: 04/25/03
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #17190916 - 11/09/12 04:06 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Some people just like a good stiff ass-fucking.



Ummm, here! :grin:  I give too, I'm not greedy. Would that make me a socialist homosexual in the bedroom? I believe one should give as much as one can, if they have more give more. LOL!


--------------------


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InvisibleJoieDeVivre
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #17190918 - 11/09/12 04:06 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
you cant have more efficient government without trimming a lot away, do we need
the department of homeland security when airports and airlines are privately
owned, it's government security guards for private companies. let the industry
hire their own. welfare money is another source of great waste, not because
poor people receive it but because less than 25% of the money goes where it's
supposed to, the rest is wasted in administration

smaller government is in fact the answer, what we have now isnt sustainable



But I think my main point is that just reducing government size isn't the answer. I think that some people fall into the trap of thinking that just making the government smaller will fix our problems but we also need to make sure that the reductions we make are cutting things that are really wasteful and not things that help our country as a whole and we also need to make sure that what we don't cut is reformed in such a way that ensures that it is efficient, transparent, serving the best interests of the people and highly regulated to make sure that corruption and needless expansion doesn't happen again.

So, I do agree that smaller government is the answer but it needs to be done in a mindful way.

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:

you clearly didnt read anything there. romney and someone else made virtually
the same statement, romney was listed as a half truth while the other was
listed as mostly true, yet in both instances the real facts arent brought to
light showing that the statement started as less than half true

yes, having too frequent a bias to one side or the other does compromise the
'fact' especially when you look at their justification on how they draw their
conclusions. I read things analytically and I investigate, I dont just read
and regurgitate



Yeah, I didn't read anything there because I'm not arguing with you that there is a bias. What I'm more interested in is knowing what you think a more reliable, less biased source is.


--------------------
Sapere aude

"We cannot live for ourselves alone. Our lives are connected by a thousand invisible threads, and along these sympathetic fibers, our actions run as causes and return to us as results."


UBUNTU- I am because we are.




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Offlinekoods
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre] * 1
    #17191036 - 11/09/12 04:32 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

One reason I believe you can blame Bush more for fucking the economy than blame Obama for not fixing it is that it is simply obvious that it requires less effort and determination to break a system like the economy than to repair it. Nobody is perfect, but Bush's economic policy was dominated by magical thinking, willful ignorance and a reliance on economic theories that are demonstrably flawed.

Obama economic policies are not radical... They are well established methods that have a century of empirical data to support their efficacy. Unfortunately, the resistance from republicans has hobbled the president.

The debt meme that the GOP has managed to plant in the national consciousness has been a real detriment to the economy. Someone who argues that debt must be the focus of economic policy when unemployment is high and interest rates are at historically low levels should not be trusted - if you are concerned about near term job growth, the last thing you should do is reduce spending. When interest rates are low, taking on more debt to increase economic activity is a rational decision - and quick look around the world demonstrates it was a good one. Four years ago, the US economy was as bad or worse than most other industrial nations. Now, the US economy is quite a bit healthier than these these other economies.


--------------------
I am a violent pusher of the neo-marxist SJW agenda to destroy society.


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InvisibleLynnch
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Re: I still can't believe that Obama got re-elected with the economy so crappy [Re: JoieDeVivre] * 3
    #17191061 - 11/09/12 04:35 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

When Mr. Obama first took office the economy was in free fall. Free fall. Like oh shit free fall. 4 years later, things aren't great, but they are no longer in free fall. He's doing his job just fine.  You can spout your conspiracies and negative predictions all you like, but fact is- free fall, 4 years, not free fall. And that's just talking about the economy.

The republicans got their asses kicked this year and didn't even see it coming. And it's been a long time coming, the last time a republican got elected he Lost the popular election. Why? Because they don't even live in reality. Romneys economic plan was what, spend 2 trillion more on our insanely huge military, cut taxes for the rich, and cut public services, and that was somehow supposed to lower our deficit and help anything?? They're supporters are religious nutjobs, people stuck in the 50s, and corporate overlords, and those who they've been able to trick into voting against their own interests.

Mr. Obama was reelected because he was dealt an insanely bad hand, and yet still was able to make progress. Nuff said.


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