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OfflineGrav
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Grav]
    #1716159 - 07/14/03 09:04 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

and i agree with you LDS, that nobody should be allowed to take it from them. It is just fucking sad.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Grav]
    #1716369 - 07/14/03 09:47 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Grav writes:

I don't believe it was because northerners genuinely cared about african americans.

No? Why do you think England abolished slavery, then? They did so more than three decades before the US did.

I think it was just another power game, though my history book fails to mention it.

If it was a game, it was a game with a lot of individual players: numerous abolitionist groups in all sections of society as well as individuals just about everywhere -- including some Southerners.

As well, the Constitution and Bill of Rights made it inevitable that sooner or later people would start believing that blacks were actually humans too, and thereby entitled to the protections enumerated therein.

But there is no doubt the strongest impetus for abolition came from England's example.

pinky


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1716387 - 07/14/03 09:50 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Name one successful country (besides an isolated island where rich people retire) that doesn't tax people significantly for social programs. Social programs seem to be an ingredient of all the world's most successful countries.


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OfflineCornholio
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Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Phred]
    #1716564 - 07/14/03 10:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

In everyone's defense, I think it's certainly conceivable that there could have been more than one motive for ending slavery. I think many people felt it was evil, but there may have been other reasons as well. Kind of silly to argue that there must have been only one reason to end slavery IMHO.


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1717102 - 07/15/03 01:45 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I dont get it, you pick out the most irrelevant thing i said in my post and took it the opposite direction of the damn thread... ?

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1717281 - 07/15/03 02:45 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Dude, you need to pull your head out of your ass and wake up. You're living in the real world.

Most people arent.

You'd be amazed how many real people live in their own little fake world surrounded by more people who were taught the same thing, and never think to think any other way.

They are sheep, and they travel in flocks.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,247
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1717316 - 07/15/03 03:03 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Cornholio said:
Name one successful country (besides an isolated island where rich people retire) that doesn't tax people significantly for social programs. Social programs seem to be an ingredient of all the world's most successful countries.



It doesn't matter what other countries do.

They aren't covered by our constitution.

We are.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: angryshroom]
    #1717323 - 07/15/03 03:06 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

angryshroom said:
I dont get it, you pick out the most irrelevant thing i said in my post and took it the opposite direction of the damn thread... ?



A few possibilities to consider.

1. Just because it's insignificant to you doesn't mean others must share your feelings.
2. Sometimes that's the way it goes.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 20 years, 4 months
Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1717379 - 07/15/03 03:40 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
It doesn't matter what other countries do.

They aren't covered by our constitution.

We are.


Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution says "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States." So I don't think it would be too big a stretch to interpret welfare as... well as welfare.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1717409 - 07/15/03 04:07 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

The common Defense and general Welfare of the United States. ie: the country.

It is not talking about handouts to individuals.

So, not only would that be an incredible stretch, it's also an incorrect attempt to stretch.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineGrav
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Phred]
    #1717578 - 07/15/03 06:14 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Grav writes:

I don't believe it was because northerners genuinely cared about african americans.

No? Why do you think England abolished slavery, then? They did so more than three decades before the US did.

I think it was just another power game, though my history book fails to mention it.

If it was a game, it was a game with a lot of individual players: numerous abolitionist groups in all sections of society as well as individuals just about everywhere -- including some Southerners.

As well, the Constitution and Bill of Rights made it inevitable that sooner or later people would start believing that blacks were actually humans too, and thereby entitled to the protections enumerated therein.

But there is no doubt the strongest impetus for abolition came from England's example.

pinky





I don't see how any of those reasons go against a theory that it was more about a relocation of power than about human rights.
The government has always been making things shiney and sparkley for the public eye.

I am sure there were groups of people who really did care and many groups afterwords that realized they should care, but I am talking about why the movement was initially set in place.

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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/24/00
Posts: 2,287
Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Static]
    #1718864 - 07/15/03 04:26 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


I can not imagine owning another human.





I can, and her name is Winona Ryder.

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1718912 - 07/15/03 04:45 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
The common Defense and general Welfare of the United States. ie: the country.

It is not talking about handouts to individuals.

So, not only would that be an incredible stretch, it's also an incorrect attempt to stretch.




You seem to be operating under the delusion that you, and not the US Supreme Court, are the body charged and empowered with interpreting the US Constitution.

There are treatments available for that sort of thing. Perhaps you should look into them.

Either that or file suit against the federal government.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1719101 - 07/15/03 05:51 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Actually, anyone with the ability to both read and comprehend can learn what the various sections of the constitution mean as the writers for years afterwards wrote quite a bit on just those subjects.

Perhaps you've heard of the federalist papers?

I'd say you appear to be able to read, it's the comprehension that seems to escape you.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineEchoVortex
(hard) member
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 859
Last seen: 15 years, 6 months
Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1719221 - 07/15/03 07:39 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Actually, anyone with the ability to both read and comprehend can learn what the various sections of the constitution mean as the writers for years afterwards wrote quite a bit on just those subjects.

Perhaps you've heard of the federalist papers?

I'd say you appear to be able to read, it's the comprehension that seems to escape you.




Your belief that the stipulation providing for the "general welfare" precludes welfare is even further off base than somebodyelse's argument that the provision for an army and a navy precludes an air force, which he, at any rate, probably meant as a joke to mock you.

If the founders seriously felt that under no circumstances should federal funds be disbursed to aid those in need, I have no doubt that they would have stipulated that in clear, explicit terms.

If you wish, you can go ferret out some snippet from the Federalist Papers that you think supports your position, but even if you do come up with something, I hope I don't have explain to you that the Federalist Papers are not only NOT the consitution, they are not legally binding documents in any way whatsoever.

Supreme Courts of both liberal and conservative inclinations at least since the New Deal have had many chances to strike down social welfare programs as unconstitutional. They have not done so. And they didn't hold back because they had an angry electorate to contend with. In case you didn't know, Supreme Court justices serve lifetime appointments and don't have to answer to anybody.

Oh and by the way, your stock rejoinder that the person you're debating lacks "reading comprehension" skills has become so stale as to amount to self-parody. Please try to come up with something a little more original next time.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1719455 - 07/15/03 09:18 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Based on your "knowledge" of the constitution and your interpretation of the word "welfare" in it, I'd say you should take the time to read what the signers had to say.

And read slow, it may help you comprehend them.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: EchoVortex]
    #1719932 - 07/15/03 11:53 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Oh and by the way, your stock rejoinder that the person you're debating lacks "reading comprehension" skills has become so stale as to amount to self-parody. Please try to come up with something a little more original next time.

And he didn't even think up that one himself, he copied it off someone else.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Grav]
    #1720148 - 07/16/03 01:05 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I think it was about making it APPEAR to abolish slavery, and then establishing a new type of slavery that shackled ALL the people of the land, not just Africans.

A new type of slavery intended to hide itself from the enslaved, and hide the fact that it was empowering just a handful of inhumane slave-drivers to unheard of proportions through a brilliant all-encompassing pyramid


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Insert an "I think" mentally in front of eveything I say that seems sketchy, because I certainly don't KNOW much. Also; feel free to yell at me.
In addition: SHPONGLE

Edited by Strumpling (07/16/03 01:10 AM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1720544 - 07/16/03 03:38 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Not very accurate already today? Unless you know I've never used it before seeing it here, that's a fairly foolish statement.

Besides Alpo, every word you use could be said to have been copied.

Or do you have talents that you certainly don't show here?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/25/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Why was slavery abolished? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1721112 - 07/16/03 09:47 AM (20 years, 8 months ago)

No, very accurate luv. Our friend evolving was using the phrase "reading comprehension" months before you copied it and started using it. Are you denying you ripped it off?


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi

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