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OfflineMushroomDogMan
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: psilocybeMAN]
    #17061429 - 10/19/12 01:25 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

I guess I'm late to the party but here's my 2 cents.

People have a lot of emotion over this topic.  I am a city dweller, though I often go hiking and camping on National Forest land.  I don't have cattle or horses or pets that are being preyed upon by wolves.  I've never been in a really remote location and had a pack of wolves stare me down.  If there are lots of wolves in Idaho or Montana it doesn't really affect me.  I think that for a lot of people like me it makes sense to restore the balance of nature and let the wolves multiply and just be.

The main voices against allowing that to happen appear to be 1) hunters who want to shoot a wolf, 2) ranchers who live near wolves and feel that their livelihoods are being affected, and 3) hunters who want to shoot deer, elk, etc and feel that wolves are lowering their numbers too much.

1) To the hunters who want to be able to shoot or trap wolves I say FUCK YOU.  If your cock is that little that you need to kill a big majestic predator to feel proud of yourself then too bad.  That's just not a good enough reason to allow wolf hunting to happen.

2) I have very little sympathy for ranchers.  I have seen LOTS of public land that has been totally fucked up by overgrazing of cattle.  I just don't think that at this point in time we need to continue subsidizing the cattle industry by allowing them to graze on public lands.  This is the 21st century.  Wild, open land is at a minimum.  It is better used for other purposes than allowing business men to line their pockets by fattening up their cattle on public land, while the land gets degraded and these guys shoot every predator in sight.

3) Hunters are going to have to accept the reality that there may be fewer game animals around to harvest.  It sucks if you're a hunter, but too bad.  The large numbers of game animals that everyone is used to is an artificial situation created by eliminating the top predators from our ecosystems.  But public lands are for everyone to enjoy, not just hunters.  I believe that this day and age there are more people who would enjoy driving through a national forest and maybe seeing a wolf in the distance than there are people who want to hunt.  That's just how it is these days and the lands should be managed accordingly.  Hunters have to adjust and work a little harder to bag that deer.  Life goes on.

The reality is that the more that we try to "manage" wild lands the more we actually fuck things up.  Let nature restore its own balance.

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: MushroomDogMan]
    #17064691 - 10/19/12 10:39 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

The reality is that the more that we try to "manage" wild lands the more we actually fuck things up.  Let nature restore its own balance.



Yes! Thank you! Great post all around.


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: GuruBushHippie]
    #17076096 - 10/21/12 09:19 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
Quote:

The reality is that the more that we try to "manage" wild lands the more we actually fuck things up.  Let nature restore its own balance.



Yes! Thank you! Great post all around.




:facepalm:

Why is there so much naivety regarding humans and nature? The idea that if we just stop killing wolves that nature will "solve itself" is ridiculous. We are constantly affecting nature with all of our roads, farms, cities, pollution, etc. Wolves are not a benign creature that causes no harm like a spotted owl. The idea that we can just ignore wolf populations and things will "work out" is wrong. The fact is our current policies are actually very effective. Hunters get to hunt, farmers get to protect their stock, and wolf populations are stable. To eliminate the hunting of wolves would be akin to saying we want to take this very moderate path of wolf management and distance ourselves from it and turn to a more radical approach of allowing wolf populations to increase far beyond the current carrying capacity of our natural lands (the harms of which have already been stated ad nauseum in this thread). Hunting from helicopters is not a great or necessary practice. However, to equate one form of hunting to wildlife management on the whole is to completely miss the point of wildlife management.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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OfflineBoozerguyzer
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: Nifflerz] * 2
    #17119164 - 10/28/12 05:27 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Niffla said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Ugh, so much fail in this thread.





You're the only fail I see in this thread, dip shit. Control the population? Well why don't we start offing motherfuckers in China & Japan then to control their "population" if this is the logic?

"Control the population". Lmao. The fuck outta here. If you're gonna use them for food, fine. But "control the population"??? Fuck the fuck off. I'm no PETA motherfucker, but for fuck's sake, those damn animals have as much right to be around as we do.




I think your vehemence in your post suggests that you need to get in better touch with the actual situation of life and the world you live in.  The study of ecology and wildlife management is a beautiful one that highlights the evil and divinity running through the fabric of our world.  It's not about "rights."  We, humans, are capable of measuring, perceiving, and modeling population patterns.  We can see when problems in ecosystems occur, why they occur, and how they can be prevented.  By understanding these patterns, we can take action that minimizes the damage we do by occupying the earth and helps maintain the sacred balance of life.

This balance knows no "majesty" of wolves or deer or bacteria or humans.  It only knows that when living things get out of proportion they will die, and this is a cold reality that you can't escape.  Humans, with our advanced ability to see and communicate patterns, experience this balance on a different level.  We can take our own action to try and mimic the natural balance struck in nature, and in fact we are obligated to since our presence introduces its own imbalance.

I live in Minnesota where after years of Wolf protection the subsequent population growth they have finally grown to and beyond a stable size.  Their excessive presence is manifest by them spilling over into human areas, something the aren't naturally prone to anyway.  A season has been opened whereby a limited number of licenses are sold allowing people to hunt wolves.  Hunting isn't about killing only animals that aren't majestic, and if you've ever seen what a pack of wolves do to a deer then perhaps you'll think of them differently.  The hunting is instead about restoring balance to nature.


--------------------
"There was a time when I could not find, the spirit of God BEYOND the mind.  In retrospect the intellect is blind, it makes me think that I'm, the reason for all that's mine, even this rhyme I'm inclined to believe is from me, instead of being received. This is how we're deceived.  How am I more than dust? when it's your love that animates us?  Forever I will trust. Your love is better than lust. You. Live. Forever In Us." KRS ONE

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Invisiblepassifloracaerulea
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: Boozerguyzer]
    #17120873 - 10/28/12 09:56 PM (12 years, 2 months ago)

it's fine if you are going to eat the animal or use it's pelt to the point of not crossing the line of greed. in oregon, wolves were recently shot for killing cattle. they were introduced in idaho, and migrated here to the imnaha wilderness and abroad. they have to come out of the high mountain designated wilderness area to hunt, especially in the winter months. the ranchers expect the wolves to stay away from their cattle, and that just isn't logical. the cattle completely took over their land. i suppose the only real answer at this point is to get rid of the cattle(ship off to texas) and restore the land by hiring the ranchers and their families to eradicate the noxious weed species that they have introduced over their years of shitty stewardship. i know that seems harsh and irrational but the ranchers and wolves can't get along. history has proven that, and the wolves deserve a place on this earth too, even if they aren't the wolves that were once native to eastern oregon. ranchers would also then be able to charge tourists to see their restored wolf habitat and open game hunt reserves. they still have to make money. there's also alot of gold over there that is now viable to mine that the value is so high.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: passifloracaerulea] * 1
    #17122285 - 10/29/12 07:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

passifloracaerulea said:
it's fine if you are going to eat the animal or use it's pelt to the point of not crossing the line of greed. in oregon, wolves were recently shot for killing cattle. they were introduced in idaho, and migrated here to the imnaha wilderness and abroad. they have to come out of the high mountain designated wilderness area to hunt, especially in the winter months. the ranchers expect the wolves to stay away from their cattle, and that just isn't logical. the cattle completely took over their land. i suppose the only real answer at this point is to get rid of the cattle(ship off to texas) and restore the land by hiring the ranchers and their families to eradicate the noxious weed species that they have introduced over their years of shitty stewardship. i know that seems harsh and irrational but the ranchers and wolves can't get along. history has proven that, and the wolves deserve a place on this earth too, even if they aren't the wolves that were once native to eastern oregon. ranchers would also then be able to charge tourists to see their restored wolf habitat and open game hunt reserves. they still have to make money. there's also alot of gold over there that is now viable to mine that the value is so high.




The number of wolves killed by ranchers or farmers is actually very small. Not exactly sure why you are getting all upset about this?


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Invisiblepassifloracaerulea
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #17122641 - 10/29/12 09:08 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

it's not a small number if you look at the pack numbers and figure what it takes for a healthy pack to sustain itself.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: passifloracaerulea]
    #17122919 - 10/29/12 10:15 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

passifloracaerulea said:
it's not a small number if you look at the pack numbers and figure what it takes for a healthy pack to sustain itself.




:facepalm:

Farmers and ranchers kill the wolves that kill their livestock. The ratio is pretty much 1:1 in my state. Wolves in my state have already hit their carrying capacity and need to be harvested in order to maintain a balance. In fact, the wolves in my state are doing so well they are roaming into Washington and your state Oregon. You're welcome.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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Invisiblepassifloracaerulea
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #17122963 - 10/29/12 10:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

clearly wolves and ranchers aren't ever going to get along, even though the ranchers could sacrifice to the wolves their sick and dying cattle by staking them to the well known bone piles on ranch and blm land that the ranchers have placed there. these bone piles are well known territorial stops for the wolves already. this could possibly condition wolves to go to the piles for food, but the instinct of chasing and animal would still be present. ranchers simply haven't been witty enough to outsmart the wolves without resorting to guns and traps.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: passifloracaerulea] * 1
    #17122999 - 10/29/12 10:32 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

passifloracaerulea said:
clearly wolves and ranchers aren't ever going to get along, even though the ranchers could sacrifice to the wolves their sick and dying cattle by staking them to the well known bone piles on ranch and blm land that the ranchers have placed there. these bone piles are well known territorial stops for the wolves already. this could possibly condition wolves to go to the piles for food, but the instinct of chasing and animal would still be present. ranchers simply haven't been witty enough to outsmart the wolves without resorting to guns and traps.




the sad part is that both sides (wolf lovers and wolf haters) have blown the numbers out of proportion when it comes to wolves and ranchers. this continues on this thread. i'll repeat, current wolf management is very effective.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #17129485 - 10/30/12 09:26 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/10/27/2441520/second-wild-red-wolf-found-slain.html

That put a damper on my day :sad: It's okay though, since wolf conservation efforts are sooo fucking top notch right now :rolleyes:


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: GuruBushHippie] * 1
    #17129496 - 10/30/12 09:30 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/10/27/2441520/second-wild-red-wolf-found-slain.html

That put a damper on my day :sad: It's okay though, since wolf conservation efforts are sooo fucking top notch right now :rolleyes:




poaching does not = wildlife management.

:ifyoucanawe:


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #17129501 - 10/30/12 09:31 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/10/27/2441520/second-wild-red-wolf-found-slain.html

That put a damper on my day :sad: It's okay though, since wolf conservation efforts are sooo fucking top notch right now :rolleyes:




poaching does not = wildlife management.

:ifyoucanawe:



Wildlife management is supposed to help prevent this shit from happening. There's only about a hundred of these things left. 100. That's it. Shit like this should not be happening, period.


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: GuruBushHippie] * 1
    #17129537 - 10/30/12 09:40 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
http://www.newsobserver.com/2012/10/27/2441520/second-wild-red-wolf-found-slain.html

That put a damper on my day :sad: It's okay though, since wolf conservation efforts are sooo fucking top notch right now :rolleyes:




poaching does not = wildlife management.

:ifyoucanawe:



Wildlife management is supposed to help prevent this shit from happening. There's only about a hundred of these things left. 100. That's it. Shit like this should not be happening, period.




So what is your suggestion? Take all the guns away for hire more forest service rangers so they can patrol every inch of wilderness where these wolves live?

remember, its already illegal to poach so making it illegal to kill wolves in my state (on the other side of the country) or banning helicopter shooting of wolves in alaska ain't gonna do anything to help wolves in N.C.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #17129635 - 10/30/12 10:08 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

You're really this nonchalant about a critically endangered species being killed off? It probably wasn't even poached on purpose. It was probably mistaken for a coyote, but that still doesn't change the fact that it was killed. I like the idea mentioned in the article. Ban night-hunting of coyotes.


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: GuruBushHippie] * 1
    #17129867 - 10/30/12 11:02 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
You're really this nonchalant about a critically endangered species being killed off? It probably wasn't even poached on purpose. It was probably mistaken for a coyote, but that still doesn't change the fact that it was killed. I like the idea mentioned in the article. Ban night-hunting of coyotes.




I'm not nonchalant about it. I'm just pointing out that this killing of a wolf in N.C. has nothing to do with wolf killings in the rocky mountains or alaska or by helicopter or anything to do with wolf management practices. also, banning hunting at night just seems like a smart thing to do if not to save this species of wolf from accidental killing but also for safety reasons.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #17129886 - 10/30/12 11:06 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
You're really this nonchalant about a critically endangered species being killed off? It probably wasn't even poached on purpose. It was probably mistaken for a coyote, but that still doesn't change the fact that it was killed. I like the idea mentioned in the article. Ban night-hunting of coyotes.




I'm not nonchalant about it. I'm just pointing out that this killing of a wolf in N.C. has nothing to do with wolf killings in the rocky mountains or alaska or by helicopter or anything to do with wolf management practices. also, banning hunting at night just seems like a smart thing to do if not to save this species of wolf from accidental killing but also for safety reasons.



I never suggested a correlation, but it DOES have something to do with management. This was preventable.


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: GuruBushHippie] * 1
    #17129925 - 10/30/12 11:13 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
Quote:

SlashOZ said:
Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
You're really this nonchalant about a critically endangered species being killed off? It probably wasn't even poached on purpose. It was probably mistaken for a coyote, but that still doesn't change the fact that it was killed. I like the idea mentioned in the article. Ban night-hunting of coyotes.




I'm not nonchalant about it. I'm just pointing out that this killing of a wolf in N.C. has nothing to do with wolf killings in the rocky mountains or alaska or by helicopter or anything to do with wolf management practices. also, banning hunting at night just seems like a smart thing to do if not to save this species of wolf from accidental killing but also for safety reasons.



I never suggested a correlation, but it DOES have something to do with management. This was preventable.




I'm not going to blame wildlife management for poaching unless it was a forest service ranger doing the poaching. This is almost like blaming cops for murders or theft imo. Sometimes you cannot stop illegal activity and harmful activity. Its a sad reality and lashing out at wildlife management isn't going to help. Maybe a more robust anti poaching campaign in the area is needed? I personally can't stand poachers because they ruin things for everyone else.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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OfflineGuruBushHippie
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: SlashOZ]
    #17129990 - 10/30/12 11:25 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Isn't anti-poaching part of wildlife management?


--------------------
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I cut straight through the forest, and that has made all the difference.

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InvisibleSlashOZ
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Re: The killing of wolves in the wild... [Re: GuruBushHippie] * 1
    #17130010 - 10/30/12 11:30 AM (12 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

GuruBushHippie said:
Isn't anti-poaching part of wildlife management?




Yeah, hopefully they find whoever shot this wolf illegally and prosecute them. That is about the extent of what they can do at this point. In the future they could raise awareness of why poaching is bad and hence illegal already. I'm not sure what magic wand you think law enforcement has but they don't have one. They can't just stop all crime from happening. Once again, think of the analogy of blaming the police for murder or theft.


--------------------
"Life sucks but in this really beautiful way" - Axl Rose
"Life's a bitch and then you die that's why we get high cuz you never know when you're gonna go." - NAS
"When people don't know what you're about they put you down and shut you out" - Black Sabbath
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" - Gandhi
"Look up at me I am God, look down on me and I am evil, look at me I am you." - Charles Manson.
"Don't question my reality." - Me (as far as I know)

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