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Offlinekief
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Registered: 06/30/03
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Panaeolus subbalteatus
    #1710697 - 07/13/03 04:01 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i live in the midatlantic region and it has been raining alot recently i just walked outside to find my garden covered in mushrooms i suspect Panaeolus subbalteatus i am in the process of doing a sporeprint the habitat is a manured garden in full sun, my question is does the species panaeolus bruise blue at all and what cause's certain active species to bruise blue?

i will post pics of the suspected mushrooms shortly


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InvisibleZippoZM
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1710704 - 07/13/03 04:09 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

pan subs rarely bruise blue, atleast in my expierence. what type of manure were they found growing on? pan sub's commonly grow on horse manure although i suppose they might grow on other dung as well.
as for the bluing of the other active mushrooms, noone knows for sure but it is supposedly a reaction between the psilocibn and the oxygen in the air. pan subs have a band of color around the edges and a black spore print.
peace
zippoz


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Offlinekief
Dr. Nuggz

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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1710714 - 07/13/03 04:15 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

yes i know about the black spore print they were found in composted manure i live near a a bunch of mushrooms houses alot of edible mushrooms are cultivated in my area i dunno if that has anything to do with it


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1710718 - 07/13/03 04:18 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

We would need to see some pictures and a good description of the mushrooms to make an accurate ID.



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Offlinekief
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: angryshroom]
    #1710721 - 07/13/03 04:21 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

well i am pretty sure of the species i was a botany major for a year i just had a few questions about bruising i will give better discription with pictures tommarow thx


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Offlinekief
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1710724 - 07/13/03 04:25 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

one more question is a black spore print a definite characteristic of the Panaeolus subbalteatus species? or are more features needed for idification




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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1710752 - 07/13/03 04:40 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

A black spore print helps narrow it down to genus. Panaeolus subbalteatus has a black spore print, as do almost all members of the genus Panaeolus. The genus Coprinus also has black spore prints, and often so do members of the genera Gomphidius and Chroogomphus.

Identification of a black-spored Panaeolus to species will require quite a bit more information.

Happy mushrooming!


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Offlinekief
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1710795 - 07/13/03 04:56 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

are there any species which with a black spore print to be confused with paneoulous that are posionous?


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Edited by kief (07/13/03 04:57 AM)


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1710801 - 07/13/03 05:02 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

To the untrained eye, a lot of mushrooms could look similar to Panaeolus.

I wouldnt eat these mushrooms until I was certain that they were indeed subbalteatus.

Are you positive that they are not Panaeolus foeniescii? Pan. subbalteatus looks somewhat similar to them, except subs. are much more robust and have a different shaped cap.

You can try brusing the white mycelium which attaches to the base of the mushroom to see if THAT blues. Even then it is a pretty slight bluing effect that is hard to see.

I have definetly seen bluing in subbalteatus however, its just hard to see it when the stem is so darn dark.


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Offlinekief
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: angryshroom]
    #1710809 - 07/13/03 05:07 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

hmm i must have a different speices them these stems are white in color i will try brusing them


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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1710834 - 07/13/03 05:27 AM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Sounds like it might be.

Pan. subbalteatus have reddish-brown stems, with white fibrils. The gills are dark gray, with whitish edges. There is usually (but not always) a belt of color on the cap. Usually going from chocolate brown to a fawn brown. Spore print should be jet-black.



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Offlinekief
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: angryshroom]
    #1711334 - 07/13/03 02:12 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

what about there stems are they usually dark or black in color or are there some white variants


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OfflineLizard King
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1711408 - 07/13/03 02:42 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

The stem becomes darker with age and eventually becomes reddish, the upper portions of the stem can remain whitish in color even at maturity. Some variants have little red in the stem, especially if the conditions have been dry.



LK,


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OfflineLizard King
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: Lizard King]
    #1711436 - 07/13/03 02:58 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

These first two pictures show how white the stem can be. The first picture is also an example of the rare bluing reaction in Panaeolus subbalteatus. The second pic (not the best example) kinda shows the "fuzzyness" of the stems, which is made up of fine white fibrils, small tiny hairlike things, usually more apparent in the upper portion of the stem. This characteristic is not always apparent under wet conditions, especially in water logged specimens. The third pic is an example of how red the stem can be (though again, not the best example), and also shows the vertical grooves that run along the stem. This characteristic is fairly consistent in Panaeolus subbalteatus. Also, if you look in the top left hand corner of the last pic, you can see the underside of a Pan. subb cap. If you look close you can see the white edges of the gills, this characteristic is always apparent in Panaeolus subbalteatus and a good way to seperate this species from Panaeolus foensecii.








LK,


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Edited by Lizard King (07/13/03 03:03 PM)


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Offlinekief
Dr. Nuggz

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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: Lizard King]
    #1711479 - 07/13/03 03:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

i have a few more questions the life cycle between pan subb. and foensecii. after fruiting is there a big difference in time before the mushroom completes its cycle and drys up and size/width of stems?



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InvisibleVortex
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1711681 - 07/13/03 04:45 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

There's a couple major differences that i've noticed between pan subbs and pan foens. Of course you can seperate them based on sporeprints, but these are a few more that you can use just while looking for them in the field. At least in my area (pittsburgh), the gills on the foens hang lower than the cap.


The gills on the foens are also sort of a watery brown color as well, and the cap is shaped different. On subbs, the gills are usually close to the inside of the cap (pardon my lack of good terminology) and do not hang lower. They are quite similar, but far from impossible to tell apart.

Of course this might just be a local varient, they could be totally different somewhere else, just putting in my $.02


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Offlinekief
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: Vortex]
    #1711733 - 07/13/03 05:13 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

in distinguishing they spore prints between the two species pan subbs and pan foens what degree of difference in color is there



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Invisibleangryshroom
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: kief]
    #1711876 - 07/13/03 06:02 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with what Vortex said about the gills.

As for the sporeprint, foen's will have a dark brown/chocolate brown-purple spore print.

Pan. subbalteatus will have a thick dark black.


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OfflineLizard King
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: angryshroom]
    #1711915 - 07/13/03 06:17 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

Here are some examples of what they are talking about with the Pan. foe gills hanging lower than the cap margin, it is a very common feature I never thought to mention.

About the fruting time differences, there isn't really. When I see Pan. foensecii up in lawns, the subbs are usually up in my horse pasture, and they both seem to dry up and shrivel away under the same time frame.






LK,


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Offlinekief
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Re: Panaeolus subbalteatus [Re: Lizard King]
    #1711921 - 07/13/03 06:20 PM (13 years, 9 months ago)

thanks for all the info, yeah there was a big patch of pan foens that dried up within 2 days would pan subbs be common in cow pastures aswell as horse?


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