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Offlinesomebodyelse
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The Air Force is Unconstitutional
    #1707886 - 07/12/03 03:29 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

...so what should we do? Shut it down?

The constitution clearly sets out a mandate for "an army" and "a navy", but there's no mention of an air force. Since they went to the bother of actually specifying the various units of military that should be supported federally, can't we take it from the absence of mention of an air force that it is unconstitutional?

Your thoughts, please.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1707946 - 07/12/03 04:59 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Falls under common defense.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1707947 - 07/12/03 05:00 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Falls under common defense.

In much the same way television and radio fall under press.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1707955 - 07/12/03 05:12 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Why the need to specify "army" and "navy" in that case?

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1707960 - 07/12/03 05:17 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps because in the 1770's the motion of a machine that could fly was just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.

Just as TV and radio were beyond their ability.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlineshakta
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708048 - 07/12/03 07:55 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Duh! :smile:

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708288 - 07/12/03 10:58 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps because in the 1770's the motion of a machine that could fly was just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.




Just like fully automatic M-16's with attached grenade launchers were just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.

BTW,I'm not against the owning of firearms of law abiding cititzens,I just don't exactly agree with the NRA's agenda.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708310 - 07/12/03 11:08 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The flaw in that is it says...
to keep and bear arms.

Now... arms have changed.

Press has changed.

IF your argument is that M-16's aren't or shouldn't be covered, then neither should TV and Radio versions of the press.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708324 - 07/12/03 11:19 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

OK, a don't have a constitution in front of me,but all I remember is the part to secure a militia. Does it even directly say anything about private citizens? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just would like to know exactly how it's worded.

I still don't see how TV and radio wouldn't be the "press". Does it actually say "this only applies to the printing press" or anything similar? Again, could you point me to the near or exact wording? Wouldn't that be covered under general "free speach"?

And if you're so constitional, why haven't you made a thread saying that the TV and radio press should be illegal (a serious one)? I apoligize if you have and I missed it.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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OfflineDeepDish2
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708377 - 07/12/03 11:53 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

I think much that has occurred from the time the founding fathers chose to write the constitution, to the present day, would be "beyond their ability to forsee." I could use that arguement for against anything that you claim to be unconsitutional. Either you follow the constitution word for word or you take it for what it is; a dated document that acts as a strong guideline for the running of our greatly changed country.
The definiton of "press" includes Television, radio, and any other medium that transmits news (Dictionary.com). Also since television and radio communicate through the spoken word, it seems as thought the freedom of speech would also grant them the ability to say what they please.

Therefore if the creation of an airforce isn't specifically laid out in the constitution, I fail to see how (if you believe that constitution has to be followed word for word) it is constitutional. Since your knowledge of the constition is now doubt better then mine, maybe you can direct me to the passage.

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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708388 - 07/12/03 11:59 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
OK, a don't have a constitution in front of me,but all I remember is the part to secure a militia. Does it even directly say anything about private citizens? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just would like to know exactly how it's worded.



A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The militia at the time was, and is, any able bodied citizen.


Quote:

I still don't see how TV and radio wouldn't be the "press". Does it actually say "this only applies to the printing press" or anything similar? Again, could you point me to the near or exact wording? Wouldn't that be covered under general "free speach"?



It is the press. I believe a more careful reading of my post you're questioning will show my point was, in the same way that TV and Radio is covered by the first, so are M-16's covered by the second.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708403 - 07/12/03 12:09 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.




I believe that reads "the right of the people to keep and bear arms necessary for a well regulated militia". I still don't think it says anything about owning guns for any other purpose. And it doesn't say anything about regulating arms in anyway,it just says that people have to right to own guns. I still think the ban on automatic assault weapons is constitutional because of this.
Obviously,this stuff is open to range of interpretations,but that's my take on it.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708435 - 07/12/03 12:25 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

My quote of the second is word for word.

There is no ban on automatic assault weapons.

There is a ban on look-alikes. (semi-automatic)

Anyone with a clean criminal and mental health record and $200.00 (may be more now) can get a Class 3 permit (called a tax stamp) and legally purchase a fully automatic weapon.

Here's a link for the Bill Of Rights.

Bookmark it as it can come in handy during these discussions.

Here's a link on Who Is The Militia.

And some Quotes from those who wrote the B.O.R., I suspect they probably had some idea of what it meant. They did write it after all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708463 - 07/12/03 12:46 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

My quote of the second is word for word.




I realize that. I was just wording it a bit differently. The part after the comma just seems to elaborate on the first part. If it was broken up in to different sentences,I think the meaning would have changed and fit your interpretation better.The whole thing is intentionally vague I think.



Didn't the Brady bill and similar laws ban fully autos in some way?

Is it just unlawful to convert a semi into a full?

This might surpise you,but I was at the range in the middle of nowhere shooting 22's with some buddies and some guy somewhere across the range started firing a fully auto, what looked like an AR-15, and he ran away fast as hell. I heard he was later caught and charged with an illegal fully auto.

Quote:

And some Quotes from those who wrote the B.O.R., I suspect they probably had some idea of what it meant. They did write it after all.




Those are only some quotes. While I can't think of any specifics at this time,I've seen quotes from the founding fathers that clearly contradict one another. For all I know,this things are taken out of context (I'm not saying they necessarily are.)


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

Edited by grandmasterfat (07/12/03 12:48 PM)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708495 - 07/12/03 01:05 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Didn't the Brady bill and similar laws ban fully autos in some way?



No.


Quote:

This might surpise you,but I was at the range in the middle of nowhere shooting 22's with some buddies and some guy somewhere across the range started firing a fully auto, what looked like an AR-15, and he ran away fast as hell. I heard he was later caught and charged with an illegal fully auto.



What is surprising about that? If he didn't have a permit for a full auto he would be arrested. (I don't think a special permit should be needed)

Read the Fereralist Papers. That's where most if not all those quotes came from.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708521 - 07/12/03 01:20 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

OK,that might be some kind of state or local regulation then I dunno. I've been to the gun shows here and they won't even talk to you if you mention anything about full autos,maybe that's just a gun show thing then (they sell brass knuckles as "paperwieghts,which I find quite funny).


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708635 - 07/12/03 02:16 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

The point of this thread is obvious - times have achanged, boys. So, clearly, some interpretation of the constution is required, since we don't go in for frequent amendments these days.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1708774 - 07/12/03 03:06 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

The point of this thread is obvious - times have achanged, boys. So, clearly, some interpretation of the constution is required, since we don't go in for frequent amendments these days.

Times have changed. Principles have not.

That is the genius of the Founding Fathers -- that they thought (and wrote) in principles and in concepts rather than in concretes. They didn't say that the people had the right to bear flintlocks, they said the people had the right to bear arms. They didn't say the rights of the newspaper publishers couldn't be infringed, they said the rights of the press couldn't be. Even though they lived in a time when technological advances were occurring at a fairly slow rate, their precision of language allows for essentially unlimited technological advance. This is because they were philosophers, not demagogues.

As an aside, note that originally the "Air Force" was a branch of the army, then later the navy had their own air wing. As a matter of fact, there are still flying vehicles in the army, the navy, and the marines.

pinky


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1708991 - 07/12/03 04:20 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly, they thought in principles. Thus arguing over (literally) the letter of the law is pointless. To understand the constitution we need to be discussing it in its historical context. To apply it to today's world, we need to be able to let go of things which are no longer appropriate in a postmodern society. In other words, as a reference point it is valuable - as a be all and end all it isn't. The needs of our society should take precedence.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1709068 - 07/12/03 04:48 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

Exactly, they thought in principles. Thus arguing over (literally) the letter of the law is pointless.

Incorrect. It is far from pointless. They went to considerable lengths to phrase these principles as precisely as possible. Changing a single word in a crucial spot changes the entire expression of the principle.

To understand the constitution we need to be discussing it in its historical context.

Incorrect. The principles espoused in it would be as valid if they were written in medieval times or yesterday.

To apply it to today's world, we need to be able to let go of things which are no longer appropriate in a postmodern society.

Such as?

In other words, as a reference point it is valuable - as a be all and end all it isn't.

Incorrect. It may conceivably be argued that some future developments may necessitate adding to it, but there is no reason to invalidate any of it.

The needs of our society should take precedence.

There are currently no "needs" of society that weren't in existence (and adequately addressed by the constitution) at the time the constitution and the Bill of Rights was written.

If you believe I am mistaken, please provide us an example of one.

pinky


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1709144 - 07/12/03 05:17 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Well, let's consider a couple examples of changing times:

When the constitution was framed, the European powers were still claiming rights to various parts of this continent. There was still a large population of native Americans who were defending themselves against the westward wave. Both of these put in context the idea of militias: the need to defend the spread of the civilization. Now that the US is settled, where is the need for militias?

Or, when the consitution was frames, it was assumed that the resources of the continent were infinite. There was no provision made for limiting use of a resource, exploitation of a piece of land, etc, in the aim of the common good (the health of the surrounding populace, the ability of locals to enjoy the land, the welfare of future generations.) America has always built bigger, more extravagently, because it could. Now, with rampant overdevelopment, a coming energy resource crunch, etc, it could be argued that for the good of the common people, aka, the good of the civilization, it is vital that these issues be addressed. "But no, it's not a federal issue." Well, if it isn't a federal issue, exactly whose issue is it? The feds are supposed to be the guardians of the welfare of our civilization, are they not? The people sure as hell aren't.

I honestly believe this American obsession with the constitution is unhealthy.

And totally aside, what made you leave the US, PSM?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1709251 - 07/12/03 05:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

Both of these put in context the idea of militias: the need to defend the spread of the civilization. Now that the US is settled, where is the need for militias?

The need was not to defend "the spread of civilization", the need was self-defense of the existing society. Even if the United States had never spread beyond the original states who were signatories, the need to defend them would remain.

Or, when the consitution was frames, it was assumed that the resources of the continent were infinite.

Says who? The Founding Fathers were not imbeciles. They understood full well that the new continent, though vast, was not infinite.

There was no provision made for limiting use of a resource, exploitation of a piece of land, etc, in the aim of the common good...

There were no such provisions made because such provisions violate individual rights. If you clear a piece of farmland from virgin forest owned by no one before you cleared it, you have the right to use it as you see fit. If you are stupid enough to exhaust the soil through bad agricultural practices, you starve. If you know what you are doing, you thrive. The government has no say in the matter either way.

The key phrase in your premise is "the common good". How is someone living in San Francisco affected by my clearing a plot of forest in Massachussetts, whatever the eventual outcome of my failed farm may be? Who decides what is "good"? Who decides which people are to be included in the "common"?

Now, with rampant overdevelopment, a coming energy resource crunch, etc, it could be argued that for the good of the common people, aka, the good of the civilization, it is vital that these issues be addressed.

Anything can be argued. That doesn't mean the arguments hold water.

Who decides what is to be considered "rampant overdevelopment?" If I choose to build a thirty story office building with parking garage on my failed farm, thus leading some to conclude I have "overdeveloped" it, what does it matter to society as a whole? How have I prevented anyone from exercising their rights? Who has been harmed?

Well, if it isn't a federal issue, exactly whose issue is it?

An individual issue. That's the meaning of the tenth amendment. You get to do what you wish with your stuff, I get to do what I want with my stuff.

The feds are supposed to be the guardians of the welfare of our civilization, are they not?

Nope. They are supposed to be the guardians of the rights of the individuals living in the United States. That's it, that's all.

I honestly believe this American obsession with the constitution is unhealthy.

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

And totally aside, what made you leave the US, PSM?

I have never been a US resident, though I have spent some time here and there in the US. I was born and raised in Canada, and left because I was fed up with living in a Nanny State.

pinky


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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1709894 - 07/12/03 08:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The need was not to defend "the spread of civilization", the need was self-defense of the existing society. Even if the United States had never spread beyond the original states who were signatories, the need to defend them would remain.




Oh come on, New York City wasn't under attack by the Indians, nor was Boston. It was the settler outposts, the border towns etc etc who were involved in the Indian wars, and it was there that militias were relevant. Yes the British marched through the east, and yes militias played a significant part in defense against them, but you have to keep in mind that the settlement of the continent was not cut and dried. They had to have had that in (at least the back of the) mind when they were talking about militias.
Today neither of those dangers are reality. We have no foreign armies marching through. We're in 4th generation warfare now, not 1st or 2nd.

Frankly gun control isn't top of my list of priorities, but it is a clear example of stretching the constitution out of historical context to use the 2nd amendment to justify the rights of the citizenry owning military grade weaponary. I doubt whether Jefferson had in mind the possibility that the militias would be in condradiction to the federalismos, which is what most of the militias seem to see as their primary role these days, as far as I can gather.

And regarding oversight of development and resource use: if you leave that up to "the individual", you guarantee that there will be overdevelopment and resource exploitation at full speed until we're fucked. For every person who has enough sense to step back and say, hey, maybe this part of the country actually needs this forest to support the ecosystem, to prevent soil erosion, or whatever, there will be another less principled individual ready to step into their shoes. I can't believe you're so shortsighted as to not see this, so how do you justify this in your mind? If the feds have no right mandating what is done in the development and use of naturally occurrring resources in our country (including, to be consistent, water), then who is to stop the natural progression towards free for all anarchy and full scale nest destruction? (Yes, gorillas mess up their environment, but gorillas have low enough populations that they can be nomadic. We don't have that luxury.)



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Offlined33p
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1710030 - 07/12/03 09:48 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

This arguement brings to my mind what happened in South Afrika. At one point in South Afrika's history the government thought it would be a good idea to ban guns. They figured that it would lower crime beacuse if no one has guns it means no gun crime right?

wrong. Bad people could still easily aquire guns while good poeple afriad to obtain a firearm is now left helpless to any common crimnal. From that point many farms where devestated bacuse once the owners has weapons which is enough of a threat to repel most criminals. Now the worst thing they could face was a knife. All i can say it really didnt turn out quite. And i just recall this from memory so if any of it is incorrect i am sorry. Although if guns were baned this would surely happen in America.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1710110 - 07/12/03 10:15 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I doubt whether Jefferson had in mind the possibility that the militias would be in condradiction to the federalismos, which is what most of the militias seem to see as their primary role these days, as far as I can gather.



You think? Think again Bucko.... it's EXACTLY what he had in mind.


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyrany in government." (Thomas Jefferson)


And not just Jefferson.





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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinesomebodyelse
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1710479 - 07/13/03 12:33 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting. Didn't know that.

Well, again, times have changed. Militias vs feds in any scenario I can imagine would be pointless. For one, the feds "own" the public relations machine of the media, so the will of the people in general would have to have gotten pretty much off the leash for there conceivably to be widespread support of militias (you can just imagine the branding of the militias in the press as tin foil hat wearing whackjobs or whatever). Secondly, the sheer firepower differential makes any idea of an effective resistance by militia groups laughable. Surely an effective resistance would be fought more in the realm of information?

I don't want to turn this into yet another gun control thread, anyway. What do you say to my point of the individual's primacy in terms of rights to treat the environment as they like guaranteeing the fouling of the nest? Is our collective nest something that should be left up to the chaotic individual decisions of the struggling mass, or do you agree with me that some basic central direction and principles (if not from the feds, and by all means voted upon) are becoming increasingly necessary?


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1710486 - 07/13/03 12:37 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

That is the genius of the Founding Fathers -- that they thought (and wrote) in principles and in concepts rather than in concretes.

Well, apparently they thought in concretes enough that they decided not to extend the human rights they enumerated in the Bill of Rights to women, blacks, and Native Americans. With that grand act they initiated a great American tradition of hypocrisy.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1710506 - 07/13/03 12:46 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyrany in government." (Thomas Jefferson)





The Iraqi people had guns in practically every home. That did jack all to protect them from Saddam. It does even less to protect them from the U.S. Military, just as Americans' weapons do next to nothing to protect them from their own military.

Don't get me wrong. In a country like the US where there is one gun already out there for every man, woman, and child, gun control is kind of like getting spilled milk back into a carton. I don't see it as working. But this idea that your guns protect you from the government's tanks, bombers, jet fighters, etc.--to say nothing of their nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons--is pretty laughable to anybody except a confirmed lunatic.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1710928 - 07/13/03 05:44 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Secondly, the sheer firepower differential makes any idea of an effective resistance by militia groups laughable. Surely an effective resistance would be fought more in the realm of information?




You assume that most of the military would fight their friends, family, and fellow countrymen. I prefer to believe there are enough who won't and enough like me who'll die trying to stop it.

My sig has a quote that I believe in very strongly.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineBetMomIsProud
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1710991 - 07/13/03 08:16 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Mao was once quoted as saying: "All Political power come from the end of a gun." You see, even though our guns wouldn't be very effective against chem, bio, or nuclear weapons, the gov't couldn't use them in the country anyways. What's the point in ruling a country you blasted back to the mineral soil? If they kill everyone, who do they have left to rule? Nope, if the gov't ever tried to pry the country avay from the citizens, they'd have to try to sedate the population. It would require a door to door check of pretty much everyone in America. This check would be met with the small firearms most Americans keep in their homes. This makes a military takeover highly unlikely. The more obvious route would be to warp societies views of life to the point that they were subservient. The gov't would have to mold the populace into a state where they don't care what is happening politically, so long as their creature comforts are protected. Hmmm... Looks like they've already been hard at work on that one.


--------------------
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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1711008 - 07/13/03 08:43 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

They had to have had that in (at least the back of the) mind when they were talking about militias.

At the time the Constitution was penned, the US had no standing army, just militias. Regardless, the reason the Constitution recognizes the right of the people to bear arms is for self-defense, not conquest.

And regarding oversight of development and resource use: if you leave that up to "the individual", you guarantee that there will be overdevelopment and resource exploitation at full speed until we're fucked.

This turns out not to be the case. No one disputes the fact (yes, it is a fact) that the countries with the least amount of individual freedom are the ones with the heaviest environmental damage -- i.e. China, the ex USSR and ex-Warsaw Pact countries. It's a question of "the tragedy of the commons". If you own something, you tend to look after it.

I can't believe you're so shortsighted as to not see this, so how do you justify this in your mind?

How do you justify in your mind the "right" of anyone to tell me what I can and cannot do with my stuff?

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1712597 - 07/13/03 08:29 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Just like fully automatic M-16's with attached grenade launchers were just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.

the Colt M-16A2, which the military has been using since the early seventies, does not have full-auto fire mode. it uses a 3-round burst setting. this is to conserve ammo. the M-16A2 is also almost never fitted with a grenade launcher. The grenade launcher you sometimes see attached to our military's weapons is usually attached to the M-4, not the M-16.

:cool:

sorry, i had to...

yeah, the founding fathers didn't know what kind of weaponry was going to be available in the future. but although they couldn't actually FORESEE the sorts of weapons that would be available in the future, they were smart dudes, and i think they had enough historical perspective to see that humans had gone from rocks and clubs to spears and swords to muskets and cannon and that the trend would probably continue. even in their time, there were such weapons as large cannons capable of firing nasty things like large cannonballs or grapeshot. they didn't put any exceptions or restrictions on what "arms" meant. presumable, the citizens of our young nation were free to own cannons if they pleased.

they didn't mention any restrictions or limitations on what "arms" were. i do believe that a citizen of this nation should have a right to own a fully-automatic rifle, or a short-barreled shotgun, or a handgun with a large magazine... and i think the founding fathers would agree if they were here today. maybe they wouldn't like an attached grenade launcher though... but then again, they didn't have a problem with cannons.

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Anonymous

Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: ]
    #1712654 - 07/13/03 08:48 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

i would think that we'd find more pro-gun rights people on a drug website.

drug users are probably the segment of the population with the strongest disgust for governmental interference and legislation of 'crimes' with no victims...

drug warriors will say they want to fight the scourge of drugs because getting rid of drugs will make the streets safer, reduce crime, blah blah blah... and they don't go after the CRIMINALS (crackheads mugging people for their fix, junkies breaking into cars), but anyone who uses drugs, which is an act that in itself causes no one to be victimized.

eerily similar is the rhetoric and action of the anti-gun movement. instead of fighting armed robbers and murderers, they demonize guns and try to legislate and control guns. they would throw an otherwise law-abiding owner of an illegal assault rifle in jail the same way the drug warriors lock up otherwise law-abiding users and growers of drugs.

and what's more, the war on guns shares the same ground as the war on drugs but goes a few steps further in ridiculousness...

it can be demonstrated that in many situations, a higher incidence of gun-ownership results in lower levels of violent crime. this cannot be said of drug use.

we're all aware that prohibition causes an unregulated, violent market to spring up... we saw this with prohibition, we're seeing it with drugs... can you imagine how it would be if the target of the prohibition were guns themselves?

criminals have guns. they will always have guns, whether they're illegal or not. gun laws take away the right of peaceful citizens to defend themselves... drug laws, however ridiculous, do not erode such a fundamental right as self-defense.

gun laws are pointless bullshit; even more foolish than drug laws. the people who support oppressive gun control laws are in the same boat as those who support drug laws, but are even lower on rationale and logic.

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Invisible1stimer
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: ]
    #1712904 - 07/13/03 10:20 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gun laws are pointless bullshit; even more foolish than drug laws. the people who support oppressive gun control laws are in the same boat as those who support drug laws, but are even lower on rationale and logic.




Guns do not enhance consciousness. Guns do nothing positive in this day and age. the use of guns are an act of violence. Those that think the issue of gun control should take presedence over the issue of drug control are truely deprived of any logical reasoning.


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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: 1stimer]
    #1712918 - 07/13/03 10:24 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

You make a good point. Gun violence kill millions of people each year. Marijuana and mushrooms kill none.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: silversoul7]
    #1713075 - 07/13/03 11:25 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

First of all,I would like to say I'm not anti gun. I think the total banning of guns would be horrible. What would happen with prohibition would happen with guns.

I think your comparison with guns and drugs does have some merit,but you missed a crucial point. When you use drugs in an irresponsible fashion,you're only directly hurting yourself. When you use guns irresponsibly,you're likely hurting other people.


--------------------
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1713083 - 07/13/03 11:28 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly. BTW, I'm not anti-gun either. I was just explaining how someone could be anti-gun yet pro-drug.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: 1stimer]
    #1713635 - 07/14/03 07:39 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Guns do not enhance consciousness.

neither do drugs. entheogens make up only a very small portion of drugs consumed in the country, and even amongst that, there are probably few who actually mean to use them as a tool, and even fewer who are succesful at doing so. in addition, entheogens do not "enhance" consciousness. they may show the user a useful, but necessarily temporary perspective, but this is not 'enhancement'. entheogens are a window, not a door.

in certain schools of zen, Ways, or zen arts, are used as a tool. these arts are many times martial in character, such as kyudo (the way of the bow), kendo (the way of the sword), judo, and karate-do. i could argue that meditative pistol, rifle, or shotgun shooting, as a spiritual practice, could have as much "consiousness enhancement" effect as entheogenic drugs, and in particular cases, alot more.

you get the idea. drugs and guns are inanimate objects. whether they do harm or good lies in the choices made by the individual using them, and this is precisely why prohibition is bullshit.

Guns do nothing positive in this day and age.

nor does most drug use, but we've already covered that. guns provide many people with a measure of self-defense. if you think the ability to defend yourself and your loved ones against an armed attacker is a negative thing, you need to go do some thinking.

people also hunt and shoot targets.

the use of guns are an act of violence.

this is true. self-defense is a violent act.

Those that think the issue of gun control should take presedence over the issue of drug control are truely deprived of any logical reasoning.

i didn't say that one was more important than the other, just that the same prohibitionist mindset and logic fuels both.

people have been killing eachother, attacking eachother, raping eachother, and robbing eachother, for as long as they've been around. they've been using weapons to do it for just as long. the idea that this problem can be solved by simply making weapons illegal (thereby taking them away from only the law-abiding) is arrogant, shortsighted, and foolish. it is a practice favored only by liberals, soccer moms, and tyrants.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: 1stimer]
    #1713780 - 07/14/03 09:27 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Those that think the issue of gun control should take presedence over the issue of drug control are truely deprived of any logical reasoning.



I'm in one of my rare polite moods so I'll just say that's one of the more foolish statements I've seen in quite some time.

What of the person who has no interest in drugs yet enjoys target shooting??

What of the person who lives in a high crime area and has a need for self defense?

What of the person who hunts to feed his family?



Perhaps you've done way too many drugs if that's your idea of deprived reasoning.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineCornholio
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1713809 - 07/14/03 09:56 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
What of the person who lives in a high crime area and has a need for self defense?


I lean pro-gun because most of the arguments that can be made for drug legalization can also be made for gun legalization. However, I question the self defense argument. How often are guns actually used in self defense? Any articles or statistics out there you can point to?


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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Cornholio]
    #1713898 - 07/14/03 10:49 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

You're more likely to be shot with your own gun than use it for self defense.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Cornholio]
    #1713952 - 07/14/03 11:17 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

There have been several studies on just that question.

Here's one.

Here's another.

A Washinton Times Reprint.

Interesting Tidbits.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1713955 - 07/14/03 11:18 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
You're more likely to be shot with your own gun than use it for self defense.



Only brainwashed fools and gun-haters still buy into that myth.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1714015 - 07/14/03 11:45 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Source? Are you taking into account suicides and homicides by family members? I skimmed over those links,but I didn't really find anything.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1714024 - 07/14/03 11:48 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

brainwashed fools




Seriously,do you enjoy being an asshole? A simple you're wrong,this is why would have sufficed.And if I am indeed wrong about a statistic,that makes me a brainwashed fool?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1714056 - 07/14/03 12:01 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Seriously,do you enjoy being an asshole?



If I was one I'm sure I'd enjoy it. I enjoy just about everything else.

Quote:

A simple you're wrong,this is why would have sufficed.



If it would have accurately conveyed my thoughts, I'd have just said your wrong.

Quote:

And if I am indeed wrong about a statistic,that makes me a brainwashed fool?



Only you can answer that since I don't know you.

Why would I count suicides? You said shot with your own gun. Was I incorrect in taking that as shot by another person?

Anyway, here's a link for you.

There's lots more out there if this doesn't satisfy you.
I'll sum it up for you using various sources.\
in 1999:
10,828 murders.
16,599 suicides.
2,000,000 defensive uses of guns by civilians. (by civilians, not law enforcment or military)


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1714075 - 07/14/03 12:05 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Why would suicide with your own weapon not be "shot with your own gun"?


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1714086 - 07/14/03 12:08 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
Why would suicide with your own weapon not be "shot with your own gun"?




"to be shot" infers another doing the shooting.
To shoot, would infer the gun in your own hand.

If you say you meant suicides as well, I'll take your word.

Doesn't change the statistics though.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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