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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1709144 - 07/12/03 05:17 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Well, let's consider a couple examples of changing times:

When the constitution was framed, the European powers were still claiming rights to various parts of this continent. There was still a large population of native Americans who were defending themselves against the westward wave. Both of these put in context the idea of militias: the need to defend the spread of the civilization. Now that the US is settled, where is the need for militias?

Or, when the consitution was frames, it was assumed that the resources of the continent were infinite. There was no provision made for limiting use of a resource, exploitation of a piece of land, etc, in the aim of the common good (the health of the surrounding populace, the ability of locals to enjoy the land, the welfare of future generations.) America has always built bigger, more extravagently, because it could. Now, with rampant overdevelopment, a coming energy resource crunch, etc, it could be argued that for the good of the common people, aka, the good of the civilization, it is vital that these issues be addressed. "But no, it's not a federal issue." Well, if it isn't a federal issue, exactly whose issue is it? The feds are supposed to be the guardians of the welfare of our civilization, are they not? The people sure as hell aren't.

I honestly believe this American obsession with the constitution is unhealthy.

And totally aside, what made you leave the US, PSM?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1709251 - 07/12/03 05:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

Both of these put in context the idea of militias: the need to defend the spread of the civilization. Now that the US is settled, where is the need for militias?

The need was not to defend "the spread of civilization", the need was self-defense of the existing society. Even if the United States had never spread beyond the original states who were signatories, the need to defend them would remain.

Or, when the consitution was frames, it was assumed that the resources of the continent were infinite.

Says who? The Founding Fathers were not imbeciles. They understood full well that the new continent, though vast, was not infinite.

There was no provision made for limiting use of a resource, exploitation of a piece of land, etc, in the aim of the common good...

There were no such provisions made because such provisions violate individual rights. If you clear a piece of farmland from virgin forest owned by no one before you cleared it, you have the right to use it as you see fit. If you are stupid enough to exhaust the soil through bad agricultural practices, you starve. If you know what you are doing, you thrive. The government has no say in the matter either way.

The key phrase in your premise is "the common good". How is someone living in San Francisco affected by my clearing a plot of forest in Massachussetts, whatever the eventual outcome of my failed farm may be? Who decides what is "good"? Who decides which people are to be included in the "common"?

Now, with rampant overdevelopment, a coming energy resource crunch, etc, it could be argued that for the good of the common people, aka, the good of the civilization, it is vital that these issues be addressed.

Anything can be argued. That doesn't mean the arguments hold water.

Who decides what is to be considered "rampant overdevelopment?" If I choose to build a thirty story office building with parking garage on my failed farm, thus leading some to conclude I have "overdeveloped" it, what does it matter to society as a whole? How have I prevented anyone from exercising their rights? Who has been harmed?

Well, if it isn't a federal issue, exactly whose issue is it?

An individual issue. That's the meaning of the tenth amendment. You get to do what you wish with your stuff, I get to do what I want with my stuff.

The feds are supposed to be the guardians of the welfare of our civilization, are they not?

Nope. They are supposed to be the guardians of the rights of the individuals living in the United States. That's it, that's all.

I honestly believe this American obsession with the constitution is unhealthy.

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

And totally aside, what made you leave the US, PSM?

I have never been a US resident, though I have spent some time here and there in the US. I was born and raised in Canada, and left because I was fed up with living in a Nanny State.

pinky


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
Last seen: 20 years, 10 months
Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1709894 - 07/12/03 08:58 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

The need was not to defend "the spread of civilization", the need was self-defense of the existing society. Even if the United States had never spread beyond the original states who were signatories, the need to defend them would remain.




Oh come on, New York City wasn't under attack by the Indians, nor was Boston. It was the settler outposts, the border towns etc etc who were involved in the Indian wars, and it was there that militias were relevant. Yes the British marched through the east, and yes militias played a significant part in defense against them, but you have to keep in mind that the settlement of the continent was not cut and dried. They had to have had that in (at least the back of the) mind when they were talking about militias.
Today neither of those dangers are reality. We have no foreign armies marching through. We're in 4th generation warfare now, not 1st or 2nd.

Frankly gun control isn't top of my list of priorities, but it is a clear example of stretching the constitution out of historical context to use the 2nd amendment to justify the rights of the citizenry owning military grade weaponary. I doubt whether Jefferson had in mind the possibility that the militias would be in condradiction to the federalismos, which is what most of the militias seem to see as their primary role these days, as far as I can gather.

And regarding oversight of development and resource use: if you leave that up to "the individual", you guarantee that there will be overdevelopment and resource exploitation at full speed until we're fucked. For every person who has enough sense to step back and say, hey, maybe this part of the country actually needs this forest to support the ecosystem, to prevent soil erosion, or whatever, there will be another less principled individual ready to step into their shoes. I can't believe you're so shortsighted as to not see this, so how do you justify this in your mind? If the feds have no right mandating what is done in the development and use of naturally occurrring resources in our country (including, to be consistent, water), then who is to stop the natural progression towards free for all anarchy and full scale nest destruction? (Yes, gorillas mess up their environment, but gorillas have low enough populations that they can be nomadic. We don't have that luxury.)



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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1710030 - 07/12/03 09:48 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

"Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." - Plato

This arguement brings to my mind what happened in South Afrika. At one point in South Afrika's history the government thought it would be a good idea to ban guns. They figured that it would lower crime beacuse if no one has guns it means no gun crime right?

wrong. Bad people could still easily aquire guns while good poeple afriad to obtain a firearm is now left helpless to any common crimnal. From that point many farms where devestated bacuse once the owners has weapons which is enough of a threat to repel most criminals. Now the worst thing they could face was a knife. All i can say it really didnt turn out quite. And i just recall this from memory so if any of it is incorrect i am sorry. Although if guns were baned this would surely happen in America.


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1710110 - 07/12/03 10:15 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I doubt whether Jefferson had in mind the possibility that the militias would be in condradiction to the federalismos, which is what most of the militias seem to see as their primary role these days, as far as I can gather.



You think? Think again Bucko.... it's EXACTLY what he had in mind.


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyrany in government." (Thomas Jefferson)


And not just Jefferson.





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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1710479 - 07/13/03 12:33 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Interesting. Didn't know that.

Well, again, times have changed. Militias vs feds in any scenario I can imagine would be pointless. For one, the feds "own" the public relations machine of the media, so the will of the people in general would have to have gotten pretty much off the leash for there conceivably to be widespread support of militias (you can just imagine the branding of the militias in the press as tin foil hat wearing whackjobs or whatever). Secondly, the sheer firepower differential makes any idea of an effective resistance by militia groups laughable. Surely an effective resistance would be fought more in the realm of information?

I don't want to turn this into yet another gun control thread, anyway. What do you say to my point of the individual's primacy in terms of rights to treat the environment as they like guaranteeing the fouling of the nest? Is our collective nest something that should be left up to the chaotic individual decisions of the struggling mass, or do you agree with me that some basic central direction and principles (if not from the feds, and by all means voted upon) are becoming increasingly necessary?


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OfflineEchoVortex
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Registered: 02/06/02
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1710486 - 07/13/03 12:37 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

That is the genius of the Founding Fathers -- that they thought (and wrote) in principles and in concepts rather than in concretes.

Well, apparently they thought in concretes enough that they decided not to extend the human rights they enumerated in the Bill of Rights to women, blacks, and Native Americans. With that grand act they initiated a great American tradition of hypocrisy.

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OfflineEchoVortex
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1710506 - 07/13/03 12:46 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:


"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyrany in government." (Thomas Jefferson)





The Iraqi people had guns in practically every home. That did jack all to protect them from Saddam. It does even less to protect them from the U.S. Military, just as Americans' weapons do next to nothing to protect them from their own military.

Don't get me wrong. In a country like the US where there is one gun already out there for every man, woman, and child, gun control is kind of like getting spilled milk back into a carton. I don't see it as working. But this idea that your guns protect you from the government's tanks, bombers, jet fighters, etc.--to say nothing of their nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons--is pretty laughable to anybody except a confirmed lunatic.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1710928 - 07/13/03 05:44 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Secondly, the sheer firepower differential makes any idea of an effective resistance by militia groups laughable. Surely an effective resistance would be fought more in the realm of information?




You assume that most of the military would fight their friends, family, and fellow countrymen. I prefer to believe there are enough who won't and enough like me who'll die trying to stop it.

My sig has a quote that I believe in very strongly.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineBetMomIsProud
Journeyman ofMycology
Registered: 05/15/03
Posts: 172
Loc: MI
Last seen: 20 years, 7 months
Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1710991 - 07/13/03 08:16 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Mao was once quoted as saying: "All Political power come from the end of a gun." You see, even though our guns wouldn't be very effective against chem, bio, or nuclear weapons, the gov't couldn't use them in the country anyways. What's the point in ruling a country you blasted back to the mineral soil? If they kill everyone, who do they have left to rule? Nope, if the gov't ever tried to pry the country avay from the citizens, they'd have to try to sedate the population. It would require a door to door check of pretty much everyone in America. This check would be met with the small firearms most Americans keep in their homes. This makes a military takeover highly unlikely. The more obvious route would be to warp societies views of life to the point that they were subservient. The gov't would have to mold the populace into a state where they don't care what is happening politically, so long as their creature comforts are protected. Hmmm... Looks like they've already been hard at work on that one.


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Nothing is idiot proof. Just need a real talented idiot.

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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1711008 - 07/13/03 08:43 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

They had to have had that in (at least the back of the) mind when they were talking about militias.

At the time the Constitution was penned, the US had no standing army, just militias. Regardless, the reason the Constitution recognizes the right of the people to bear arms is for self-defense, not conquest.

And regarding oversight of development and resource use: if you leave that up to "the individual", you guarantee that there will be overdevelopment and resource exploitation at full speed until we're fucked.

This turns out not to be the case. No one disputes the fact (yes, it is a fact) that the countries with the least amount of individual freedom are the ones with the heaviest environmental damage -- i.e. China, the ex USSR and ex-Warsaw Pact countries. It's a question of "the tragedy of the commons". If you own something, you tend to look after it.

I can't believe you're so shortsighted as to not see this, so how do you justify this in your mind?

How do you justify in your mind the "right" of anyone to tell me what I can and cannot do with my stuff?

pinky


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Anonymous

Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1712597 - 07/13/03 08:29 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Just like fully automatic M-16's with attached grenade launchers were just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.

the Colt M-16A2, which the military has been using since the early seventies, does not have full-auto fire mode. it uses a 3-round burst setting. this is to conserve ammo. the M-16A2 is also almost never fitted with a grenade launcher. The grenade launcher you sometimes see attached to our military's weapons is usually attached to the M-4, not the M-16.

:cool:

sorry, i had to...

yeah, the founding fathers didn't know what kind of weaponry was going to be available in the future. but although they couldn't actually FORESEE the sorts of weapons that would be available in the future, they were smart dudes, and i think they had enough historical perspective to see that humans had gone from rocks and clubs to spears and swords to muskets and cannon and that the trend would probably continue. even in their time, there were such weapons as large cannons capable of firing nasty things like large cannonballs or grapeshot. they didn't put any exceptions or restrictions on what "arms" meant. presumable, the citizens of our young nation were free to own cannons if they pleased.

they didn't mention any restrictions or limitations on what "arms" were. i do believe that a citizen of this nation should have a right to own a fully-automatic rifle, or a short-barreled shotgun, or a handgun with a large magazine... and i think the founding fathers would agree if they were here today. maybe they wouldn't like an attached grenade launcher though... but then again, they didn't have a problem with cannons.

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Anonymous

Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: ]
    #1712654 - 07/13/03 08:48 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

i would think that we'd find more pro-gun rights people on a drug website.

drug users are probably the segment of the population with the strongest disgust for governmental interference and legislation of 'crimes' with no victims...

drug warriors will say they want to fight the scourge of drugs because getting rid of drugs will make the streets safer, reduce crime, blah blah blah... and they don't go after the CRIMINALS (crackheads mugging people for their fix, junkies breaking into cars), but anyone who uses drugs, which is an act that in itself causes no one to be victimized.

eerily similar is the rhetoric and action of the anti-gun movement. instead of fighting armed robbers and murderers, they demonize guns and try to legislate and control guns. they would throw an otherwise law-abiding owner of an illegal assault rifle in jail the same way the drug warriors lock up otherwise law-abiding users and growers of drugs.

and what's more, the war on guns shares the same ground as the war on drugs but goes a few steps further in ridiculousness...

it can be demonstrated that in many situations, a higher incidence of gun-ownership results in lower levels of violent crime. this cannot be said of drug use.

we're all aware that prohibition causes an unregulated, violent market to spring up... we saw this with prohibition, we're seeing it with drugs... can you imagine how it would be if the target of the prohibition were guns themselves?

criminals have guns. they will always have guns, whether they're illegal or not. gun laws take away the right of peaceful citizens to defend themselves... drug laws, however ridiculous, do not erode such a fundamental right as self-defense.

gun laws are pointless bullshit; even more foolish than drug laws. the people who support oppressive gun control laws are in the same boat as those who support drug laws, but are even lower on rationale and logic.

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Invisible1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: ]
    #1712904 - 07/13/03 10:20 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

gun laws are pointless bullshit; even more foolish than drug laws. the people who support oppressive gun control laws are in the same boat as those who support drug laws, but are even lower on rationale and logic.




Guns do not enhance consciousness. Guns do nothing positive in this day and age. the use of guns are an act of violence. Those that think the issue of gun control should take presedence over the issue of drug control are truely deprived of any logical reasoning.


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ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: 1stimer]
    #1712918 - 07/13/03 10:24 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

You make a good point. Gun violence kill millions of people each year. Marijuana and mushrooms kill none.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: silversoul7]
    #1713075 - 07/13/03 11:25 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

First of all,I would like to say I'm not anti gun. I think the total banning of guns would be horrible. What would happen with prohibition would happen with guns.

I think your comparison with guns and drugs does have some merit,but you missed a crucial point. When you use drugs in an irresponsible fashion,you're only directly hurting yourself. When you use guns irresponsibly,you're likely hurting other people.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1713083 - 07/13/03 11:28 PM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Exactly. BTW, I'm not anti-gun either. I was just explaining how someone could be anti-gun yet pro-drug.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Anonymous

Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: 1stimer]
    #1713635 - 07/14/03 07:39 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Guns do not enhance consciousness.

neither do drugs. entheogens make up only a very small portion of drugs consumed in the country, and even amongst that, there are probably few who actually mean to use them as a tool, and even fewer who are succesful at doing so. in addition, entheogens do not "enhance" consciousness. they may show the user a useful, but necessarily temporary perspective, but this is not 'enhancement'. entheogens are a window, not a door.

in certain schools of zen, Ways, or zen arts, are used as a tool. these arts are many times martial in character, such as kyudo (the way of the bow), kendo (the way of the sword), judo, and karate-do. i could argue that meditative pistol, rifle, or shotgun shooting, as a spiritual practice, could have as much "consiousness enhancement" effect as entheogenic drugs, and in particular cases, alot more.

you get the idea. drugs and guns are inanimate objects. whether they do harm or good lies in the choices made by the individual using them, and this is precisely why prohibition is bullshit.

Guns do nothing positive in this day and age.

nor does most drug use, but we've already covered that. guns provide many people with a measure of self-defense. if you think the ability to defend yourself and your loved ones against an armed attacker is a negative thing, you need to go do some thinking.

people also hunt and shoot targets.

the use of guns are an act of violence.

this is true. self-defense is a violent act.

Those that think the issue of gun control should take presedence over the issue of drug control are truely deprived of any logical reasoning.

i didn't say that one was more important than the other, just that the same prohibitionist mindset and logic fuels both.

people have been killing eachother, attacking eachother, raping eachother, and robbing eachother, for as long as they've been around. they've been using weapons to do it for just as long. the idea that this problem can be solved by simply making weapons illegal (thereby taking them away from only the law-abiding) is arrogant, shortsighted, and foolish. it is a practice favored only by liberals, soccer moms, and tyrants.

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: 1stimer]
    #1713780 - 07/14/03 09:27 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Those that think the issue of gun control should take presedence over the issue of drug control are truely deprived of any logical reasoning.



I'm in one of my rare polite moods so I'll just say that's one of the more foolish statements I've seen in quite some time.

What of the person who has no interest in drugs yet enjoys target shooting??

What of the person who lives in a high crime area and has a need for self defense?

What of the person who hunts to feed his family?



Perhaps you've done way too many drugs if that's your idea of deprived reasoning.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1713809 - 07/14/03 09:56 AM (20 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
What of the person who lives in a high crime area and has a need for self defense?


I lean pro-gun because most of the arguments that can be made for drug legalization can also be made for gun legalization. However, I question the self defense argument. How often are guns actually used in self defense? Any articles or statistics out there you can point to?


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