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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 296
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The Air Force is Unconstitutional
    #1707886 - 07/12/03 05:29 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

...so what should we do? Shut it down?

The constitution clearly sets out a mandate for "an army" and "a navy", but there's no mention of an air force. Since they went to the bother of actually specifying the various units of military that should be supported federally, can't we take it from the absence of mention of an air force that it is unconstitutional?

Your thoughts, please.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1707946 - 07/12/03 06:59 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Falls under common defense.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1707947 - 07/12/03 07:00 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Falls under common defense.

In much the same way television and radio fall under press.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1707955 - 07/12/03 07:12 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Why the need to specify "army" and "navy" in that case?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1707960 - 07/12/03 07:17 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Perhaps because in the 1770's the motion of a machine that could fly was just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.

Just as TV and radio were beyond their ability.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineshakta
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708048 - 07/12/03 09:55 AM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Duh! :smile:


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Offlinemonoamine
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Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708288 - 07/12/03 12:58 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Perhaps because in the 1770's the motion of a machine that could fly was just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.




Just like fully automatic M-16's with attached grenade launchers were just a touch beyond the ability of them to forsee.

BTW,I'm not against the owning of firearms of law abiding cititzens,I just don't exactly agree with the NRA's agenda.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708310 - 07/12/03 01:08 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The flaw in that is it says...
to keep and bear arms.

Now... arms have changed.

Press has changed.

IF your argument is that M-16's aren't or shouldn't be covered, then neither should TV and Radio versions of the press.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708324 - 07/12/03 01:19 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

OK, a don't have a constitution in front of me,but all I remember is the part to secure a militia. Does it even directly say anything about private citizens? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just would like to know exactly how it's worded.

I still don't see how TV and radio wouldn't be the "press". Does it actually say "this only applies to the printing press" or anything similar? Again, could you point me to the near or exact wording? Wouldn't that be covered under general "free speach"?

And if you're so constitional, why haven't you made a thread saying that the TV and radio press should be illegal (a serious one)? I apoligize if you have and I missed it.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineDeepDish
journeyman
Registered: 01/14/02
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708377 - 07/12/03 01:53 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

I think much that has occurred from the time the founding fathers chose to write the constitution, to the present day, would be "beyond their ability to forsee." I could use that arguement for against anything that you claim to be unconsitutional. Either you follow the constitution word for word or you take it for what it is; a dated document that acts as a strong guideline for the running of our greatly changed country.
The definiton of "press" includes Television, radio, and any other medium that transmits news (Dictionary.com). Also since television and radio communicate through the spoken word, it seems as thought the freedom of speech would also grant them the ability to say what they please.

Therefore if the creation of an airforce isn't specifically laid out in the constitution, I fail to see how (if you believe that constitution has to be followed word for word) it is constitutional. Since your knowledge of the constition is now doubt better then mine, maybe you can direct me to the passage.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708388 - 07/12/03 01:59 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

grandmasterfat said:
OK, a don't have a constitution in front of me,but all I remember is the part to secure a militia. Does it even directly say anything about private citizens? I'm not trying to be a dick, I just would like to know exactly how it's worded.



A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

The militia at the time was, and is, any able bodied citizen.


Quote:

I still don't see how TV and radio wouldn't be the "press". Does it actually say "this only applies to the printing press" or anything similar? Again, could you point me to the near or exact wording? Wouldn't that be covered under general "free speach"?



It is the press. I believe a more careful reading of my post you're questioning will show my point was, in the same way that TV and Radio is covered by the first, so are M-16's covered by the second.



--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708403 - 07/12/03 02:09 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.




I believe that reads "the right of the people to keep and bear arms necessary for a well regulated militia". I still don't think it says anything about owning guns for any other purpose. And it doesn't say anything about regulating arms in anyway,it just says that people have to right to own guns. I still think the ban on automatic assault weapons is constitutional because of this.
Obviously,this stuff is open to range of interpretations,but that's my take on it.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708435 - 07/12/03 02:25 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

My quote of the second is word for word.

There is no ban on automatic assault weapons.

There is a ban on look-alikes. (semi-automatic)

Anyone with a clean criminal and mental health record and $200.00 (may be more now) can get a Class 3 permit (called a tax stamp) and legally purchase a fully automatic weapon.

Here's a link for the Bill Of Rights.

Bookmark it as it can come in handy during these discussions.

Here's a link on Who Is The Militia.

And some Quotes from those who wrote the B.O.R., I suspect they probably had some idea of what it meant. They did write it after all.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708463 - 07/12/03 02:46 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

My quote of the second is word for word.




I realize that. I was just wording it a bit differently. The part after the comma just seems to elaborate on the first part. If it was broken up in to different sentences,I think the meaning would have changed and fit your interpretation better.The whole thing is intentionally vague I think.



Didn't the Brady bill and similar laws ban fully autos in some way?

Is it just unlawful to convert a semi into a full?

This might surpise you,but I was at the range in the middle of nowhere shooting 22's with some buddies and some guy somewhere across the range started firing a fully auto, what looked like an AR-15, and he ran away fast as hell. I heard he was later caught and charged with an illegal fully auto.

Quote:

And some Quotes from those who wrote the B.O.R., I suspect they probably had some idea of what it meant. They did write it after all.




Those are only some quotes. While I can't think of any specifics at this time,I've seen quotes from the founding fathers that clearly contradict one another. For all I know,this things are taken out of context (I'm not saying they necessarily are.)


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by grandmasterfat (07/12/03 02:48 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,201
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708495 - 07/12/03 03:05 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Didn't the Brady bill and similar laws ban fully autos in some way?



No.


Quote:

This might surpise you,but I was at the range in the middle of nowhere shooting 22's with some buddies and some guy somewhere across the range started firing a fully auto, what looked like an AR-15, and he ran away fast as hell. I heard he was later caught and charged with an illegal fully auto.



What is surprising about that? If he didn't have a permit for a full auto he would be arrested. (I don't think a special permit should be needed)

Read the Fereralist Papers. That's where most if not all those quotes came from.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinemonoamine
umask 077(nonefor you)

Registered: 09/07/02
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1708521 - 07/12/03 03:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

OK,that might be some kind of state or local regulation then I dunno. I've been to the gun shows here and they won't even talk to you if you mention anything about full autos,maybe that's just a gun show thing then (they sell brass knuckles as "paperwieghts,which I find quite funny).


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

Registered: 06/12/03
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: monoamine]
    #1708635 - 07/12/03 04:16 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

The point of this thread is obvious - times have achanged, boys. So, clearly, some interpretation of the constution is required, since we don't go in for frequent amendments these days.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1708774 - 07/12/03 05:06 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

The point of this thread is obvious - times have achanged, boys. So, clearly, some interpretation of the constution is required, since we don't go in for frequent amendments these days.

Times have changed. Principles have not.

That is the genius of the Founding Fathers -- that they thought (and wrote) in principles and in concepts rather than in concretes. They didn't say that the people had the right to bear flintlocks, they said the people had the right to bear arms. They didn't say the rights of the newspaper publishers couldn't be infringed, they said the rights of the press couldn't be. Even though they lived in a time when technological advances were occurring at a fairly slow rate, their precision of language allows for essentially unlimited technological advance. This is because they were philosophers, not demagogues.

As an aside, note that originally the "Air Force" was a branch of the army, then later the navy had their own air wing. As a matter of fact, there are still flying vehicles in the army, the navy, and the marines.

pinky


--------------------


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Offlinesomebodyelse
In_Is_Out

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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: Phred]
    #1708991 - 07/12/03 06:20 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

Exactly, they thought in principles. Thus arguing over (literally) the letter of the law is pointless. To understand the constitution we need to be discussing it in its historical context. To apply it to today's world, we need to be able to let go of things which are no longer appropriate in a postmodern society. In other words, as a reference point it is valuable - as a be all and end all it isn't. The needs of our society should take precedence.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: The Air Force is Unconstitutional [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1709068 - 07/12/03 06:48 PM (13 years, 11 months ago)

somebodyelse writes:

Exactly, they thought in principles. Thus arguing over (literally) the letter of the law is pointless.

Incorrect. It is far from pointless. They went to considerable lengths to phrase these principles as precisely as possible. Changing a single word in a crucial spot changes the entire expression of the principle.

To understand the constitution we need to be discussing it in its historical context.

Incorrect. The principles espoused in it would be as valid if they were written in medieval times or yesterday.

To apply it to today's world, we need to be able to let go of things which are no longer appropriate in a postmodern society.

Such as?

In other words, as a reference point it is valuable - as a be all and end all it isn't.

Incorrect. It may conceivably be argued that some future developments may necessitate adding to it, but there is no reason to invalidate any of it.

The needs of our society should take precedence.

There are currently no "needs" of society that weren't in existence (and adequately addressed by the constitution) at the time the constitution and the Bill of Rights was written.

If you believe I am mistaken, please provide us an example of one.

pinky


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