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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 Lance Armstrong: Dope 
#17005390 - 10/10/12 01:44 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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If you know anything at all about me, you know that I think people should be allowed to do whatever the fuck they want to as long as it doesn't hurt another. As far as I'm concerned, there should be a two-track system of athletic competition, one that allows performance-enhancing drugs, and another that doesn't.
Lance Armstrong, it's now pretty clear, lied about using performance-enhancing drugs to win multiple Tour de France, even after recovering from cancer. I started doubting his honesty after watching him come back from cancer to win the Tour de France yet again. Humans just can't do that without chemical help.
But even now, after dozens of people including HIS OWN former team members admitted that Armstrong injected them and himself with drugs, his fans refuse to believe it's true.
An implausible come-back from cancer to win the Tour de France, admissions from team members, and testimony from dozens of people close to him is not enough to convince the True Believer. What will it take?
It's exactly the way religious people ignore evidence when it works against their beliefs and trumpet it when it works in favor of their beliefs.
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The United States Anti-Doping Agency on Wednesday released details of its investigation of Lance Armstrong, saying he was at the center of the most sophisticated and professional doping program in recent sports history.
The agency’s dossier on Armstrong, the seven-time Tour de France winner and cancer survivor who denies ever doping, included sworn testimony from 26 people, including nearly a dozen former teammates on the United States Postal Service team. Those Postal Service teammates have admitted their own doping and said that Armstrong doped, encouraged doping and administered doping products on the team, the agency’s report said.
The file was the most extensive, groundbreaking layout of Armstrong’s alleged doping, bolstered by unprecedented interviews, financial statements and laboratory results.
“The U.S.P.S. Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices,” the agency said. “A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today.”
Timothy J. Herman, one of Armstrong’s lawyers, said in an e-mail message that the 202-page report “will be a one-sided hatchet job — a taxpayer-funded tabloid piece rehashing old, disproved, unreliable allegations based largely on axe-grinders, serial perjurers, coerced testimony, sweetheart deals and threat-induced stories.”
The teammates who came forward and submitted sworn affidavits included some of the best cyclists of Armstrong’s generation: Levi Leipheimer; Tyler Hamilton; and George Hincapie, one of the most respected American riders in recent history. Other teammates who came forward with information were Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Floyd Landis, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.
Their testimony was the most widespread effort to break the code of silence in cycling that has existed for decades and perpetuated the pervasive doping in the sport.
The agency said the evidence revealed “conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy.”
The evidence against Armstrong features financial payments, e-mails, scientific analyses and laboratory test results that show Armstrong was doping and was the kingpin of the doping conspiracy, the agency said. Several years of Armstrong’s blood values showed evidence of doping, the report said.
“It’s shocking, it’s disappointing,” said Travis Tygart, chief executive of the antidoping agency. “But we did our job.”
When Armstrong decided in August not to contest Usada’s charges, he agreed to forgo an arbitration hearing at which the evidence against him would have been aired, possibly publicly.
Under the World Anti-Doping Code, the antidoping agency was required to submit its evidence against Armstrong to the International Cycling Union, which has 21 days from the receipt of the case file to appeal the matter to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. Once it makes its decision, the World Anti-Doping Agency will then have 21 days in which to appeal.
The cycling union and the World Anti-Doping Agency were expected to receive the Armstrong file Wednesday.
The antidoping agency has been gathering evidence on Armstrong for the past several years, with its efforts increasing after Landis, the 2006 Tour winner who was stripped of the title for doping, contacted Tygart in 2010. Landis told Tygart that he, Armstrong and others on the Postal Service team were involved in systematic doping supported by the team.
At the same time, Armstrong became the target of a federal investigation into his doping and doping-related crimes, including defrauding the government, drug trafficking, money laundering and conspiracy. In particular, investigators from the Food and Drug Administration, the F.B.I. and the United States Postal Service were looking into whether Armstrong and his associates had used government money to finance doping practices.
But last February Andre Birotte, the United States attorney in Los Angeles, announced that his office was dropping the investigation into Armstrong. He gave no reason for abandoning the inquiry that lasted nearly two years and involved extensive travel, including to Europe, where antidoping agency and law enforcement officials met with their counterparts from Italy and France.
While the criminal investigation is no more, an inquiry by the Department of Justice is continuing, sparked by Landis’s filing a federal whistle-blower lawsuit charging that Armstrong and the team management defrauded the government by using taxpayer dollars to finance the squad’s doping program.
He claimed that Armstrong and the team management were aware of the widespread doping on the team when the squad’s contract with the Postal Service clearly stated that any doping would constitute default of their agreement, said two people with knowledge of the case. Those people did not want their names published because the case is still under seal.
Landis filed the lawsuit under the False Claims Act, the people with knowledge of the matter said, and those suits give citizens the right and financial incentive to bring lawsuits on the government’s behalf.
If the government decides to join the lawsuit and recovers any money because of it, Landis would be eligible to receive a percentage of the money.
Armstrong, who retired from cycling last year, has said Landis made up the story of doping on the team because he had not been hired by Armstrong after Landis ended his two-year suspension from the sport for doping.
When the antidoping agency announced this summer that it would file charges against Armstrong, he immediately denounced the agency’s claims and called its process of sanctioning athletes “a kangaroo court.” He filed a federal lawsuit in August, saying the antidoping agency was depriving him of his constitutional right for due process and asking the court to stop the antidoping agency from moving forward with its case. A judge dismissed the lawsuit.
In a statement by his lawyer on Wednesday, Hincapie, the only rider who was at Armstrong’s side for Armstrong’s seven Tour victories, acknowledged doping and apologized to his family, teammates and fans for his dishonesty.
“Early in my professional career, it became clear to me that, given the widespread use of performance-enhancing drugs by cyclists at the top of the profession, it was not possible to compete at the highest level without them,” said Hincapie, who retired from cycling this year after riding in a record 17th Tour. “I deeply regret that choice.”
Hincapie, the five-time Olympian and three-time national road race champion, said that he had been approached by federal investigators in the spring of 2010 and they asked him to divulge his experience with doping. That summer, he sat down with them and admitted he had cheated with drugs — but also reluctantly spoke about the other cyclists involved in doping because he felt “obligated to tell the truth about everything he knew,” he said.
He told investigators that he had not used performance-enhancing drugs or processes since 2006, a point where he was accomplished enough to ride clean and respected enough to start convincing other riders, particularly young ones, to avoid doping.
Since stopping his drug use, Hincapie said he has been “working hard within the sport of cycling to rid it of banned substances.”
“Thankfully, the use of performance-enhancing drugs is no longer embedded in the culture of our sport, and younger riders are not faced with the same choice we had,” he said.
He said the antidoping agency had reached out to him more recently to ask him about his doping past.
New York Times
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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 Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid]
#17005530 - 10/10/12 02:11 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Icelander]
#17005586 - 10/10/12 02:21 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Humans are doomed. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid]
#17005677 - 10/10/12 02:42 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I know I am.
LA is a petty liar and it's fun to see him fail. 
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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 xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 19 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid]
#17005921 - 10/10/12 03:27 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have no problem with drugs, but when measuring a person's ability to do what they do, drugs do not add anything. At the point where people are using performance enhancing drugs, it becomes about who has the best drugs.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: xFrockx]
#17005985 - 10/10/12 03:40 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well, with a two-track athletic competition system, the druggies are competing on their physical abilities as well as their abilities to metabolize the drugs to good advantage.
Which brings up a bigger question: why do we reward Olympic athletes so disproportionately more than other, equally-dedicated athletes? After all, no Olympic athlete is there purely because of their hard work. That's part of it, but they're also there because they got lucky genetics when the DNA dice rolled at their conception.
Your average Joe will NEVER EVER compete in the Olympics, no matter how much he practices, how desperately he wants it, or what sacrifices he makes trying to get there. He doesn't have the genetics to compete at world-class level and never will. The end.
The old platitude "you can be/do anything you want to be/do" is a steaming pile of bullshit. 
So if Joe wins the state championship due to his outstanding dedication, superlative hard work, and countless hours of practice but can't go any further, not even in principle no matter how hard he tries, why shouldn't he get the same recognition as an Olympic athlete who worked no harder than Joe but beat him to the top simply due to the advantage of genetic random chance?
It makes little sense to me, but then humans and what they value rarely does. 
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Republican Values:
1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.
4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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falcon
Registered: 04/01/02
Posts: 8,043
Last seen: 9 hours, 59 minutes
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid]
#17006521 - 10/10/12 05:17 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Best part of the story, Quote:
Hincapie said:“Thankfully, the use of performance-enhancing drugs is no longer embedded in the culture of our sport, and younger riders are not faced with the same choice we had,” he said.
It doesn't get any better than that!
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/17/06
Posts: 10,458
Loc: Northeast
Last seen: 19 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid]
#17007347 - 10/10/12 07:15 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Only two tracks? Please, You'll need a track for every performance enhancing drug. You'll have the roid games, the crack games, the redbloodcell booster games, and then maybe one overall for the ones who will not be seeing their 25th birthday.
"The old platitude "you can be/do anything you want to be/do" is a steaming pile of bullshit. "
Are we talking about sports or sour grapes?
"why shouldn't he get the same recognition as an Olympic athlete who worked no harder than Joe but beat him to the top simply due to the advantage of genetic random chance?"
I don't know, lets get out the praise-o-meter.
"It makes little sense to me, but then humans and what they value rarely does. "
What is "making sense?" If you don't know why they do it or some like it, well I don't know if anyone does. As far as sports go, generally they are a spectacle of/for the senses.
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zorbman
blarrr
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,952
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid]
#17008854 - 10/10/12 10:45 PM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Man did people HATE my ass on another forum when I stated that he cheated. The criticism was absolutely withering. (To someone who cared.) I knew damn well I was right. Why? for one thing, to believe otherwise meant that I'd have to believe a conspiracy involving, at a minimum, dozens of people.
Apart from a lack of motive, there is the common sense rule. The larger the conspiracy, the more people are required to keep quiet about it. And we all know from common sense, people can't keep their mouths shut!!
I admire Lance for his cancer work. That is a separate issue. Hell, even Al Capone did charity work. Many gangs do the same. It's called PR. It's normal to throw some money around when you know you'll need future support from the public.
It's called advertising.
As for a separate track for those using enhancements, it's a nice idea that will never fly. Just think about it. That's second best.
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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.” -- Rudiger Dornbusch
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Memories
Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid] 1
#17009413 - 10/11/12 12:53 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Well, with a two-track athletic competition system, the druggies are competing on their physical abilities as well as their abilities to metabolize the drugs to good advantage.
Which brings up a bigger question: why do we reward Olympic athletes so disproportionately more than other, equally-dedicated athletes? After all, no Olympic athlete is there purely because of their hard work. That's part of it, but they're also there because they got lucky genetics when the DNA dice rolled at their conception.
Your average Joe will NEVER EVER compete in the Olympics, no matter how much he practices, how desperately he wants it, or what sacrifices he makes trying to get there. He doesn't have the genetics to compete at world-class level and never will. The end.
The old platitude "you can be/do anything you want to be/do" is a steaming pile of bullshit.
So if Joe wins the state championship due to his outstanding dedication, superlative hard work, and countless hours of practice but can't go any further, not even in principle no matter how hard he tries, why shouldn't he get the same recognition as an Olympic athlete who worked no harder than Joe but beat him to the top simply due to the advantage of genetic random chance?
It makes little sense to me, but then humans and what they value rarely does.
This is why i think they should let professionals use steroids. I wouldn't watch the pussy non-juicing league. It would be like women's basketball.
Edited by Memories (10/11/12 12:53 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Memories]
#17009419 - 10/11/12 12:55 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I liked womens basketball when I gave a fuck about sports. The team work was amazing. I preferred it to the showboat slams and shit of the mens.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Memories
Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Icelander]
#17009907 - 10/11/12 04:20 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't like watching sports at all really.
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Ellis Dee
Archangel
Registered: 06/29/01
Posts: 13,104
Loc: Fire in the sky
Last seen: 5 years, 1 month
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Diploid]
#17009935 - 10/11/12 04:37 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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We see this deranged belief all the time with religion. No matter what evidence exists that disproves a firmly held belief cult members refuse to believe it. I think it has to do with admitting to themselves that they've wasted their life on lies.
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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
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Memories
Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Ellis Dee]
#17010020 - 10/11/12 05:34 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've been given the impression that pretty much all of those bikers dope. It's like this in a lot of sports I think. My friend plays college baseball at a pretty high level, and he says close to half of the kids do it, not that it helps much in baseball.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Memories]
#17010497 - 10/11/12 08:33 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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In reading this thread I get the impression that people don't care as much that Lance cheated as much as he lied about it for so long.
All the rats that roll over and then people support them is what pisses me off more. See how long those fucking rats would last in a real prison. And team mates no less. Scumbags pointing their fingers at the real man.
So, if rollover cycling rats are who you support at the expense of the real champ Lance then so be it. The training, the guts, the riding, the pain was all done by Lance regardless of the doping. Any of you ever ride a bike competitively? Riding in the Tour De France and even finishing let alone winning is an amazing feat.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Cept he likely would never have won or maybe even finished without the doping. I see nothing to admire about that fool unless it's the same thing one admires about the pope as he puts one over on the rubes.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Memories
Registered: 05/09/12
Posts: 10,484
Loc: Suwannee River
Last seen: 3 years, 11 months
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I doubt any of the top competitors don't dope.
People have this mis-conception that steroids are an easy way to get strong or big. They aren't. All they do is allow your body to exceed levels of training and rebuilding that you couldn't withstand otherwise.
I have abnormally high levels of HGH that my body produces naturally. I still had to work hard for all of my muscle mass, so people respect that, but someone who injected HGH to help with their building would be looked down upon.
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Icelander]
#17010639 - 10/11/12 09:02 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Cept he likely would never have won or maybe even finished without the doping. I see nothing to admire about that fool unless it's the same thing one admires about the pope as he puts one over on the rubes.
Cept if all the other top riders are doping too, well he won a relatively "fair" race.
Besides, if nobody watched or cared about the event, this would be a non-issue. The fact is in France it probably is the biggest sport.
To compare bicycle racing with organized religion seems grossly unfair to bicycle racing doping or not.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Cept if all the other top riders are doping too, well he won a relatively "fair" race.
Cept you don't know that. The best racer out there my never use drugs and never win.
I think sports and religions are very apt comparisons especially when it comes to the flocks.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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LunarEclipse
Enlil's Official Story
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 21,407
Loc: Building 7
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Re: Lance Armstrong: Dope [Re: Memories]
#17010908 - 10/11/12 10:03 AM (11 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Memories said:
I doubt any of the top competitors don't dope.
People have this mis-conception that steroids are an easy way to get strong or big. They aren't. All they do is allow your body to exceed levels of training and rebuilding that you couldn't withstand otherwise.
I have abnormally high levels of HGH that my body produces naturally. I still had to work hard for all of my muscle mass, so people respect that, but someone who injected HGH to help with their building would be looked down upon.
In addition to having a huge lung capacity and naturally low pulse rate, Lance also is able to withstand pain most others aren't. In fact he rather enjoys it.
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Anxiety is what you make it.
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