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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Do you feel conned?
    #1698116 - 07/09/03 01:48 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Just wondered if the right-wingers who insisted most vociferously that it was correct to invade Iraq because Saddam had WMD were now feeling a little silly. Has falling for such a whopping great propaganda line affected your belief system in anyway? Will you question the validity of your other beliefs because of this or is it something to be quickly swept under the carpet?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1698123 - 07/09/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

All politicians lie, so I doubt something like this would make them question their core beliefs any more than the whole Gary Conditt scandal made Dems question their core beliefs.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1698150 - 07/09/03 02:02 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Good point. It seemed to go beyond just the politicians tho - remember all the "Scott Ritter is telling lies" bullshit? It's clear now that he was telling the truth. I wonder if they feel apologetic about it or whether they hate him even more for being right when they were so wrong.


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1698167 - 07/09/03 02:10 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

we've been conned so many times by politicians that it just doesn't register with us anymore. I've pretty much given up on politicians ever telling the truth. it's hopeless.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: infidelGOD]
    #1698205 - 07/09/03 02:28 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah but listen to this horseshit for example (from one right-winger who shall remain nameless):

OK, let's assume for the sake of argument that Iraq destroyed 98% of the biochem stocks they admitted to possessing (by the way, Ritter didn't say Iraq had destroyed "at least 98%" of their stuff), and let's presume that Iraq didn't obtain or manufacture any new stuff after the first inspectors left in 1998. The amount of biochem they admitted to having was roughly 8,000 tons. Two per cent of 8000 is 160 tons. One hundred and sixty tons of stuff some of which is capable of killing in quantities as low as a raindrop -- think about that, Alex.

I mean - surely being wrong to this extent has got to make you seriously question your sources of information if not your entire belief system?


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1698261 - 07/09/03 02:45 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

you won't see a whole lot of right-wingers abandoning Bush or their party because of this. they're not going to hold him accountable for anything.

if people wanted the war in the first place, why do they care that the evidence for WMD was flawed? WMD wasn't the reason for their war, they wanted the WAR itself, any bullshit excuse will do for them: weapons, liberation, connection to terrorism, whatever...



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OfflineGazzBut
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1698791 - 07/09/03 05:51 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I hate to say it Al but I reckon they will find something. Uncle Tony just seems a little bit too sure of himself with his wait and see message to the commons. Its all about timing Id say and making sure that the next load of bullshit they are about to launch is a bit more watertight than the last lot. It wouldnt hurt their cause to reveal they were right all along a little bit closer to election time either, especially for Bushy boy.


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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1698913 - 07/09/03 07:53 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I feel conned, and I didn't believe it.




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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1699221 - 07/09/03 12:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

feels like some people are missing from this thread...


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1699248 - 07/09/03 12:13 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I think that's a valid question Alex...I know I would feel conned no matter which political party was in power.

Yes...politicians lie...but is that supposed to make it okay for them to do so? Fuck that...make these pricks accountable for their actions...

I doubt that anyone on these boards would say that Saddam was a good guy, and Iraq may be better off without him. But using a bullshit reason to attack another country is wrong, no matter how anyone tries to justify it.

The Bush and Blair administrations are going to have to answer for this eventually and I hope they fry for it.


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (07/09/03 12:14 PM)


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Offlinedrfrei
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Learyfan]
    #1699257 - 07/09/03 12:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Well, to me the war was never about WMD no matter what they were saying. We helped Saddam to power, we fed him in his war against Iran, and he was our problem to deal with. Like some of you say, the scandal is a nonstarter and even if it goes anywhere it will be like Ollie North back in the eighties with Iran Contra.

So, for whatever reason they actually decided on, we got the war and we took out the monster we helped build. What worries me is that now that we're in there, what are we going to do to fuck it up? Apparently, we're well on our way to that and if we abandone a hopeless situation again things will be worse than ever; it happened in Iraq before, it happened in Afganistan, it happened in Somalia and other African countries.

If I was a conspiracy theorist, I would take a piece of work written by the Brookings Institute (http://www.brook.edu/views/articles/fellows/singer20030601.htm). This institute, and others like them, some with close ties to such people as Richard Pearl (one of the admitted planners of the war) came up with the original idea of the Iraqi War; they are the one's who thought we were going to go in there and have a 'cakewalk'. So now we have wars all over the world, seven of ten divisions of our forces are deployed overseas, and who can save us from having American boys killed every week? Military for hire, Mercenaries of the oldest rank.

Hiring of mercenaries is already big business and even though it is not advertised the UN is considering this. The problem is (a rabid consipiracy theorist might say) that when multinational corporations start controlling the actual armed forces that are helping to police and keep peace in the world, they will gradually over years of time take on more and more of these duties. Vast armies of people that are not loyal to a country but to a corporate master.

There will come a time, says the fool, when those armies could easily be turned against the countries that originally hired them, and that time would not be to far away when you consider that the actual owners of the military for hire companies also own - who knows what? But I bet they already have an 'in' into Washington, a man on the inside just waiting. They'll start slow, but in fifty years who will hold the advantage? Governments, or multinationals?

And then, even if the government is reclaimed by the people - our fight would still not be over. We are at a cusp in history, and the forces of the few have manipulated the system into sowing the seeds of its own destruction. The stage is set, and in fifty to eighty years the course of history for the next thousand years will be determined.

Their weapons are the weapons of all evil, subterfuge and the ability to dwell in shadows while fools gather the attention of those who should be wary. Our weapon is this site and others like it, and communication in every form. It is not to late!


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Offlinedrfrei
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: drfrei]
    #1699258 - 07/09/03 12:18 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

At least, thats what a conspiracy theorist might say.


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Rono]
    #1699282 - 07/09/03 12:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Does anyone know what the death toll for this war is, on the Iraqi side? I've seen the figures 10,000 civilians and 100,000 soldiers, but I assume these are still rough estimates.

Regardless of whether these killings can be in any way justified or not through future evidence, I find it hard to understand why americans seem to be more upset by when and where a president had his penis sucked, than by having a president killing 10,000 civilians on a hunch.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1699498 - 07/09/03 02:05 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I was talking to a right-wing friend of mine, and I said, "They'd better start turning up Weapons of Mass Destruction soon." And he responded, "Hey, isn't it enough that Saddam was a murderous tyrant?" If they don't find WMD's, the pro-war people will find other ways to justify the war.


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Anonymous

Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1699922 - 07/09/03 04:24 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Just wondered if the right-wingers who insisted most vociferously that it was correct to invade Iraq because Saddam had WMD

i think there might have been 2 of them here. why didn't you just PM them?

ah... i forgot... in alexland, all people on the "right" of the political spectrum are huge bush fans and swallow everything this administration says, hook, line, and sinker.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: ]
    #1699971 - 07/09/03 04:47 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

why didn't you just PM them?

This a messageboard. They didn't PM particular individuals when they explained why Saddam had to be invaded because of WMD. Clearly several other people are interested in the post. If you arn't that's fine - but why clutter it with idiocy?

ah... i forgot... in alexland,

I think you're thinking of grown-ups land - that place where mature adults sometimes have to account for their erroneous beliefs. None more erroneous than following leaders blindly into war on the basis of fantasy. 

all people on the "right" of the political spectrum are huge bush fans and swallow everything this administration says, hook, line, and sinker.

*yawn* yes dear  :rolleyes: (Hint: Why not just PM me this kind of petty shit and save cluttering threads? Thanks)


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Anonymous

Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1700030 - 07/09/03 05:04 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

i'll tell you why alex. because you're again stereotyping people on the right, as you so often do, and i wanted to point out that not all people who are on the right are 'rightwingers' who love g.w. bush...

now... i am well aware of my occasional stereotyping of leftists... i do it for fun, and i realize it's a steryotype, and if you called me on it, it'd be fine by me...

EDIT: after reading over this thread, i realize that i've really got nothing to add to it, that this really wasn't a blaring example of stereotyping, and i was just picking a fight with you for the hell of it... so i'll stop now.



Edited by Anonymous (07/09/03 05:15 PM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: ]
    #1700045 - 07/09/03 05:13 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Lets get back on-topic.


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Anonymous

Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1700053 - 07/09/03 05:15 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

yes, let's.

i don't feel conned because i've always been skeptical about weapons claims. i wasn't sure if they'd find anything or not. it doesn't surprise me that they didn't. it also doesn't surprise me that they're now talking about us being in this one for "the long haul" and that resistance is high and americans are still getting killed after invading an area of the world with such high anti-western sentiment. did they really think this was going to be like post-WW2 germany?


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OfflineSombie
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Re: Do you feel conned? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1700150 - 07/09/03 05:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Later on in the next election, when Democrats become more open about bashing bush on the lack of WMD, all of a sudden they will "find" them and bush's popularity with sky rocket. Bush will say that if it were up to the democrats Saddam would have destroyed a U.S. city by now, The democrat's popularity with plummet and the Republicans will own both the house and the presidency for the elections to come. They will be unquestioned in the government for atleast 6 years.

It is also possible (however I am not so sure about this) that they will continue to blame all their problems on the Democrats and other left wing parties, much like Stalin did with Trovosky in the USSR.

but eh, that might be taking it a bit to far, but I am sure about the first paragraph.


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