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Anonymous

The 10th
    #1695669 - 07/08/03 07:57 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i'm sure plenty of you have all seen luvdemshrooms cite the 10th ammendment in debates about welfare. discussion of it is usually quietly avoided. is it because people do not understand the implications of the ammendment? perhaps. i'd like to clear it up right now. the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America reads as follows:

Quote:

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.




read it carefully. what it means is that any power which is not specifically delegated by the constitution to the federal government, nor prohibited by the constitution for state governments, shall never be excercized by the federal government; only by the states or individuals.

nowhere in the constitution does it say that the federal government may collect taxes for welfare programs. if the states wish to have welfare programs, this is their own business. federal welfare programs are unconstitutional.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The 10th [Re: ]
    #1695674 - 07/08/03 08:02 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

the 10th is basically just State Rights.


--------------------

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Anonymous

Re: The 10th [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1695991 - 07/08/03 11:31 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

yep. it should be self-evident that anything the constitution doesn't say the federal government should be doing, it shouldn't be doing. the 10th amendment clears it up a bit, stating this explicitly and giving unmentioned powers (such as welfare programs) to the states.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The 10th [Re: ]
    #1696081 - 07/08/03 12:20 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nowhere in the constitution does it say that the federal government may collect taxes for welfare programs. if the states wish to have welfare programs, this is their own business. federal welfare programs are unconstitutional.



Exactly. But that doesn't just apply to welfare.


Quote:

discussion of it is usually quietly avoided. is it because people do not understand the implications of the ammendment?



I think they understand it just fine. It just doesn't fit in with their desires. As such, they'd prefer if it wasn't brought up or even exist.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: The 10th [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1696086 - 07/08/03 12:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

I think they understand it just fine. It just doesn't fit in with their desires. As such, they'd prefer if it wasn't brought up or even exist.

kind of like the 2nd.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The 10th [Re: ]
    #1696144 - 07/08/03 12:46 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Exactly.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: The 10th [Re: ]
    #1696405 - 07/08/03 03:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So it may be in the constitution, but, that was written a hell of a long time ago.

Things have changed.

Tell me, how does one who is so low, who wants to get a job and make money, do it without any money to start out with. Simple saying: "You have to spend money to make money."

Its a very stereotypical to think of every living homeless person being a drunk which doesn't do anything, and just lives off of welfare. I live in a town where we allow homeless to live and set up camp under the bridge and live. I've talked to numerous homeless people who are incredibly nice and caring.

Some which are mentally off, some which are just so sad, and some who are happy to just live homeless. I understand that its shitty for people to live off of other people's money. But, how does one give it a new start from no money, or the low income generated by welfare?

For the good people who would like ot make a living.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The 10th [Re: ]
    #1696414 - 07/08/03 03:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

nowhere in the constitution does it say that the federal government may collect taxes for welfare programs.



There is another ammendment(I believe it was the 16th) that said that the federal government CAN collect taxes. Sorry to burst your bubble.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The 10th [Re: silversoul7]
    #1696420 - 07/08/03 03:15 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry to burst yours but there's a good deal of debate on whether it was properly ratified.

And even if it was, that doesn't allow the government to spend money on social programs. Or on anything not spelled out in the constitution for that matter.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The 10th [Re: angryshroom]
    #1696425 - 07/08/03 03:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

So it may be in the constitution, but, that was written a hell of a long time ago.



I'm not aware that there's an expiration date on the constitution or bill of rights. Perhaps you couls show me one?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The 10th [Re: angryshroom]
    #1696434 - 07/08/03 03:22 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You have to spend money to make money."




I worked at a pizza place when i was 16 and just mad pizzas. I didn't need any money.

Quote:

Its a very stereotypical to think of every living homeless person being a drunk which doesn't do anything, and just lives off of welfare.




where is this mentioned in the disscussion?

Quote:

I live in a town where we allow homeless to live and set up camp under the bridge and live. I've talked to numerous homeless people who are incredibly nice and caring.




i'm still confused as to the relavence to this discussion.



--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: The 10th [Re: angryshroom]
    #1696883 - 07/08/03 05:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I've talked to numerous homeless people who are incredibly nice and caring.





Same goes for retards. Doesn't mean I'd let them run the zoo.


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Offlinedrfrei
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Re: The 10th [Re: wingnutx]
    #1699284 - 07/09/03 12:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Another take on the constitutionality of taxes: The constitution cannot contradict itself (in theory) and therefore the sixteenth (in theory) would be an illegal amendmant, since it states clearly in the consitution that all taxes must be apportioned (equal to all). Therefore the tax on gasoline would be a legal tax because everybody who buys a gallon of gas would pay the same tax as everyone else; whereas social security and income tax rests on a floating tax rate depending on income. This is clearly not apportioned; by its very nature it cannot be.

But, abiding by the constitution went out the window a time ago, and it will be interesting to see if it goes back the other way. Right now there is little the individual can do about it.


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Invisibleshroomophile
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Re: The 10th [Re: ]
    #1699378 - 07/09/03 01:21 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So are most drug laws,gun laws,etc.etc.etc.It's called Tyranny.


--------------------
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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The 10th [Re: drfrei]
    #1699564 - 07/09/03 02:32 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

The constitution cannot contradict itself



Actually, a new ammendment can either repeal or make an exception to another part of the constitution. That's why if that flag-burning ammendment gets passed, it will be an exception to the first ammendment. Also, remember that we had an ammendment that prohibits alcohol, and later we had an ammenment that repealed it.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The 10th [Re: silversoul7]
    #1699566 - 07/09/03 02:33 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Nicely put.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlinedrfrei
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Re: The 10th [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1705402 - 07/11/03 11:30 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"and later we had an ammenment that repealed it."

This is the only legitimate way to do it, as far as some scholars are concerned. When a section is repealed, it no longer exists and therefore the new part does not contradict it. The problem is, you can't repeal the bill of rights, and thats where the fallacy of 'exceptions' comes into play. According to that doctrine, you could have 'exceptions' for free speech beyond yelling fire in a theater; it could be applied to just about anything because when you look at taxes (which was a big deal to the founding fathers), what we have today is nowhere near the ideal of apportionment set out in the original document.

Therefore the sixteenth amendment contradicts the original document because it must, because you cannot repeal the original document, only what was added later - and in a hundred years, what other amendments might come about that make 'clauses' and 'exceptoins' for what should be guaranteed. This is what worries people that worry about taxes, and everything else that the government does in the name of our society that contradicts the idea of liberty and freedom upon which this country was founded.


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Re: The 10th [Re: drfrei]
    #1706312 - 07/11/03 04:58 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

So you're saying you all would support welfare if it was run by the states?


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: The 10th [Re: somebodyelse]
    #1706340 - 07/11/03 05:06 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

No, I didn't say that.

I'd be opposed to welfare no matter what.

However, I doubt many states have an ammendment forbidding crappy programs like that.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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