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BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time?
    #1694393 -

Ok I keep reading through everything over and over trying to avoid asking this question, but what I seem to keep hearing is that fruits grown on brf lack in potency?

I would rather my pet hamster grow something above average as opposed to mediocre-below average.

I guess im just trippin because I hear about people eating a bunch and not get much of an effect, and it seems some attribute this to growing on brf.

I am a fairly big guy and I just dont wanna have to eat half my harvest to get the experience I am looking for.

It would be greatly appreciated if someone could clear this up for me, and also if an alternate substrate, such as Ryche Hawks birdseed mix, would work for PF style cakes?

Thanks shroomers!
Pip

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1694400 -

the biggest problem with cakes is that they colonize slow and don't produce as much. If you are totally new you should do some cakes, but while your waiting for them to colonize experiment with WBS, Rye, and popcorn. See which you like more, if you make a big incubator you can fit it all in there. That way it doesn't matter if you fuck up your grains because you'll still have the cakes colonizing, plus you'll be getting alot of experience in not alot of time.
To more directly answer your question, you will have to eat probably the whole first flush of a PF cake to get off at all, if you want to trip hard then you'll have to eat 1.5 times the first flush. That's assuming that the first flush is roughly 1/8oz. per cake which is a good first time grow estimate. And no don't use birdseed mix for cake fruiting, it doesn't work well at all. I have tried it and i couldn't even get the fucking thing to pin, not enough water retention.


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You're pompeius, aren't you? I'll make a pompeian of you unless you hold your toungue!

-Tiberius Claudius Nero

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: lemunhed]
    #1694476 -

So you dont think there is much of a potency loss from using brf?
What you said sounds about like what I am used to, 1/8 of commercial shrooms usualy gave me a nice experience, you did mean 1/8 dried right?

This is actually gonna be my second attempt, but the first was kinda halfassed when I first found the shroomery, so I would rather use brf just cause thats what I used before and I kinda got a feel for it.

I just dont wanna spend alot of time growing something that will be low quality at best.

Thanks alot for your help man
Pip

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1694525 -

according to a hampster i once met, pf strain (especially fat asses) grown on brf cakes are some of the most potent cubies you can grow.

lemunhed- forgive my ignorance, but what is WBS?


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Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

Formula: 0

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1694554 -

The substrate used, for cubensis, has nothing to do with potency. That was decided by genetics.

The substrate used relates directly to yield.



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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1694559 -

Wild Bird Seed

I'm at about the same spot Peregrin. 17 days in and 5 pftek jars are completely colonized. gonna cold shock tomorrow and put into a poorman's pod on wed. I like the BRF cakes since you don't need a pressure cooker. Just one less thing to go buy. And since I'm not casing the cakes I don't need whole grain.

A question for whoever .. Can you birth whole grain directly or does it need to be cased?

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1694721 -

Ainasko said:
The substrate used,  for cubensis,  has nothing to do with potency.  That was decided by genetics. 

The substrate used relates directly to yield. 



Actually, that's not -quite- true.  If a substrate was lacking in certain nutrients, the shrooms might not produce as much psylocin/psilocybin.  That needs Phosphorus, right?  So, you might get slightly weaker crops off of certain substrates ... but I don't really think that this would be all that significant, since most things contain a good amount of P, IIRC.

Anyway.  :smile: 


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Sev]
    #1694752 -

pf tek
pros:cheaper,if you get contams you don't have to trash whole batch just the one cake,less chance of contams (less steps),don't smell room up with poo ect..

cons:less shrooms,sometimes smaller shrooms and aborts,needs higher humidity,less flushes ect..


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Welcome to my world!


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Sev]
    #1694783 -

OK You guys are the shit!!

Things will proceed as planned, Im really happy to have this cleared up.

I also have to commemerate the Shroomery, I havent been to this site since before it was shoomery.org(I think it was just a sub-domain at the time), and in the 2 days that I have been back, I have had every question/post answered! intelligently and respectfully too!

Thanks shroomery!!!!
Pippin

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1694906 -

BRF is ot awaste of time at all. But I do like WBS. Colinizes way faster.

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1695208 -

Maby some will think this was a waste of time maby some won't

Grow Log
Tek : PF
Strain : South American [SA]
Spores : Came from homemade prints. 36 total jars to be injected.
Substrate :Brown Rice Flour [BRF] and Vermiculite [Verm]
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
10:15 PM 3/4/03 : Project is started. Jar prep is just putting small holes in the lids for the spore syringe and then taping them closed until inoculation. Tape used is the standard black electrical tape. First batch of jars is mixed. The mix used is 2 parts verm, 1 part water, and 1 part brf. [ This mix is the max fruiting formula by PF.] Mix is put into 1/2 pint canning jars lightly, not packed in, and left it airy. Put substrate in until it reaches the threads of the jar, then add dry verm the rest of the way.
Jars are PCd at 10psi or 240f for a period of 45 minutes. Then jars were left to sit overnight to cool.


8:39 PM 3/5/2003 : First batch of jars injected. (24 jars)

10:04 AM 3/6/2003 : Incubator is running to low 77F. Going to turn it up today.


5:45 PM 3/6/2003 : Second batch of jars is in the PC will be injected tomorrow. Turned up incubator runs at 83F. 86F is the best and if the incubator is 83F and myc growing in the jars is suppose to create a little heat I figure this should work out well.

1:11 PM 3/7/2003 : Second batch of jars is done. (12 jars)

12:10 PM 3/9/2003 : Jars are doing good, no signs of contams


2:54 AM 3/19/2003 : Tape removed from the holes today and coffee filters put over the top of the jars for added protection. Holes were opened so the CO2 in the jars could escape. I gave 12 jars to a friend who kept fucking up. 24 jar?s about 75%done.


12:13 PM 3/22/2003 : Well it's Saturday and the jars will probably be done by the 25th. So it was 36 jars. 12 were given to a friend, 24 done by Tuesday.

10:26 PM 3/23/2003 : 15 jars were done enough to put into dunk. I dunk and cold shock before birthing and after every flush. The other 9 jars have a spot the size of a pea that has to be covered so I'll do those on the 25th.


7:17 PM 3/24/2003 : 15 jars put into the pod. Put in and put a layer of moist verm on top. With geolite I just put the cakes on it. With some other chambers I put the cake on a lid filled with verm. This is done to give the shrooms on the bottom and the top of the cake some added moisture.
The other 9 jars just finished so I'm going to give them a couple more days to make sure the middle of the cake is done.


4:57 PM 3/27/2003 : 5 More cakes birthed today, 4 left going to do them tomorrow or 3/29/2003

3:58 PM 3/29/2003 : Well I lost another cake. My wife's little 1 cake pod made from a 2 liter and a small fish pump and a little geolite used up her last cake so I gave her a SA to grow. The last 3 are in the cold shock dunk.
So the total is 36 jars done all colonized with no contams. 12 given to a friend, 1 to the wife, 23 mine

12:08 PM 3/30/2003 : Last of jars put in

12:02 PM 3/31/2003 : The first 15 cakes are pinning nicely and some have shrooms coming from the bottom.


11:01 AM 4/3/2003 : Things look to be going well.


1:02 AM 4/4/2003 : Took the first flush from four of the cakes. More will be done later today.


5/8/2003 : Total 23 cakes 164 grams dried.


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All creatures tremble when faced with violence. All creatures fear death, all love life. If we can only see ourselves in others, then how could we possibly hurt another creature?


:growingweed: Join us at the Growery! :growingweed:

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Sev]
    #1696021 -

Sev said:
Actually, that's not -quite- true.  If a substrate was lacking in certain nutrients, the shrooms might not produce as much psylocin/psilocybin.  That needs Phosphorus, right?  So, you might get slightly weaker crops off of certain substrates ... but I don't really think that this would be all that significant, since most things contain a good amount of P, IIRC.

Anyway.  :smile:   


Actually,  it is true.  The genetic make-up is stored in the spore. This genetic make-up is commonly known as DNA. The potential of every living creature is decided before birth.

This is not to say that each and every identical spore from the same print will have the same potency. There are many environmental factors involved.

Give the same spores to two people and you'll likely get different results in potency, yield, color, texture, flavor and any other variable. The DNA will still be identical meaning that each had the same opportunities as the other.

Give the same spores to a new and experienced cultivator, and undoubtedly, those cultivated by the experienced will have the greater potency, but never beyond its genetic potential.

When given the optimum conditions, one can bring a fruit to its peak conditions, but we cannnot aid it further than its pre-programmed DNA has already designed.

In other words, if a cubensis spores maximum potential is a ten, we cannot get a twelve because of the limitations of the cubensis, not the limitations of the cultivator.

This is not opinion. This is science in the field of genetics.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1696031 -

No, i still grow cakes but only to spawn. Cakes are pretty much fool proof (maybe i shouldn't say that) but they are pretty much maintainance free after innoculation. Want potent fruits?? Go Bulk.


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Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: soochi]
    #1696888 -

hi,
A foaf foaf has a question:
in comparison with simple pf cakes and bulk how potent should be an outdoor patch made with moes teck' mushrooms?

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: salazare]
    #1696920 -

Poo=potent shrooms. assuming your using poo and straw with the outdoor tek, then i would think they would be pretty potent, but with outdoor you have to worry about the weather, bugs and other pests.


--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: soochi]
    #1696985 -

ok thanks

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: MycoCakeEater]
    #1698846 -

'The substrate used, for cubensis, has nothing to do with potency. That was decided by genetics. '

What an absolute load of shite...
Gartz demonstrated that the tryptomine/tryptophan precursors in a substrate directly effected the potency of mushrooms fruit off it. Infact it had a grfeater effect on the variability of alkaloid content than spore race genetics.
Anyone who tells you that BRF produces cubensis that even compare in potency to those grown off bulk manure or millet is lying or does not know what they are talking about.
BRF IS THE CRAPPEST SUBSTRATE!! IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME GROW CUBIES ON MILLET AND GET BACK TO ME!!


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1698848 -

Thankyou for demonstrating you lack of understanding of mushroom genetics. Please do some research!


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1698990 -

Quote:
bluemeanie said:
Thankyou for demonstrating you lack of understanding of mushroom genetics. Please do some research!



Thank you for demonstrating your lack of manners.

I don't think we are disagreeing. If you would have carefully read my statement you would have noticed that the result of your statement is the same as my own.

Let me amplify my position. I'm not disagreeing that better substrates will yield a higher potency. My disagreement comes when it is suggested that we, as cultivators, can increase potency beyond its genetic ability.

I do agree that there are additives that can bring the cubensis to its optimum conditions, but never beyond its predetermined genetic code.

Again, I think we are agreeing, but on different levels. I tend to explain things on a high school level as some tend to react.

It is possible to disagree without losing our manners. There are better things to get upset about.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1699055 -

Quote:
Ainasko said:
Quote:
Sev said:
Actually, that's not -quite- true.  If a substrate was lacking in certain nutrients, the shrooms might not produce as much psylocin/psilocybin.  That needs Phosphorus, right?  So, you might get slightly weaker crops off of certain substrates ... but I don't really think that this would be all that significant, since most things contain a good amount of P, IIRC.

Anyway.  :smile:   



Actually,  it is true.  The genetic make-up is stored in the spore. This genetic make-up is commonly known as DNA. The potential of every living creature is decided before birth.

This is not to say that each and every identical spore from the same print will have the same potency. There are many environmental factors involved.

Give the same spores to two people and you'll likely get different results in potency, yield, color, texture, flavor and any other variable. The DNA will still be identical meaning that each had the same opportunities as the other.

Give the same spores to a new and experienced cultivator, and undoubtedly, those cultivated by the experienced will have the greater potency, but never beyond its genetic potential.

When given the optimum conditions, one can bring a fruit to its peak conditions, but we cannnot aid it further than its pre-programmed DNA has already designed.

In other words, if a cubensis spores maximum potential is a ten, we cannot get a twelve because of the limitations of the cubensis, not the limitations of the cultivator.

This is not opinion. This is science in the field of genetics. 





    What i really want to know is; "what" effects the shroom to reach or unreach it's max. potency? I guess that's the deal here...... sorry if i misunderstood!.... But the question is still valid!  :eyemouth:


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The word truth...... doesn't make any sense..... As if the word sense...... which isn't the truth.........

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1699068 -

What is Brown Rice Flower?

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Effed]
    #1699133 -

Brown Rice Flour (BRF) is just like what it says: A flour (like you make bread with) made out of Brown Rice (preferably organic).

Anyway, I will inject my opinion here: True, the DNA contains the codon for the production N,N-Dimethyltryptamine type compounds, like a great deal of living creatures on this planet (this gene needs mapping!!) all the way from the vegetable kingdom through the reptiles and up to mammals. AFOAF's own personal research into the pharmacodynamics of fungi as chemical synthesis engines has proven the l-tryptophan method to work, but even further down the precursor list of the raw growth factors AFOAF have found that Thiamine HCl (Vitamin B1) when combined with d-Maltose and a source for trace minerals (spring water) not only populates very rapidly but provides comparable synthesis pathways for the production of Indole Alkaloids, and exhibits a superior uptake affinity leaving only trace quantities of un-reacted Thiamine and providing a near complete conversion. When using l-tryptophan significant quantities were found un-reacted although Indole production was higher, leading AFOAF to conclude that environmental situations do affect production factors. AFOAF using lab equipment at a local university and being a chem major did all of the necessary testing to arrive at these conclusions.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1699235 -

Ainasko said:
Actually, it is true. The genetic make-up is stored in the spore. This genetic make-up is commonly known as DNA. The potential of every living creature is decided before birth.



Ummm...yeah. You don't have to lecture me about genetics. I know plenty about genetics.

The fact is that the substrate -will- have some effect on the mushroom, like I said. That's all I said. I'm not talking about optimal yields, here, (and I'm not quite sure where you got the idea that I was;) I'm talking about real yields, which are always less than optimal.

I mean, I might be the son of two 6'4" Norwegians, with genes that would put me at that height, but if I don't get adequate nutrition during my growing phases, I could be dwarfed down to 5'5". Similarly, if your mushrooms are lacking certain nutrients, they certainly could have reduced yields, in terms of mass and/or psilocin/psylocybin content.

Additionally, it is possible to override genetics -- you put too much stress on a rigidity that isn't there. In the above example, I might be destined to be 6'4", but if I'm fed HGH, I could be a 7'+ basketball player. Similarly, if you grow your shrooms on a high-tryptamine substrate, you could get psilocin/psilocybin concentrations far in excess of normal amounts -- but these are unusual and extreme conditions.


--------------------
"Do we want the stars? We can have them. Can we borrow cups of fire from the sun? We can and must and light the world." --"On the Shoulders of Giants", Ray Bradbury

All of my posts are full of fiction and blatant lies.

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Sev]
    #1699263 -

We're still agreeing the same thing here. I agree that my statement "...has nothing to do with potency" may be misleading and could have been better phrased as "...little to do...", but the result is the same.

The predetermined genetic code is just that. Predetermined. We, as cultivators, can tweak them a bit, but getting the potency of an azurenscens from a cubensis is just not possible because of the limitations of the cubensis.

Again, I don't think we are disagreeing. We're seeing the same results from different perspectives.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1699352 -

If the level of staining in fruits as they dry is a guide of potency (not saying it is nor do I want to involve myself in that old debate) well millet grown leaves BRF shrooms for dead. At least twice as much blue discolouration. Then there's the trip and in a test on a friend who has a BIG tolerance (he'll eat 21 grams cracker dry) he said the millet grown was better. Strain, Golden Teacher. The amount of work in PF cakes is actually more IMO than casing grain and the yield is less.


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Convert Metric and Imperial.

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1701823 -

Very true! Manners are not my strength - im too lazy for manners.
But you did say: ''The substrate used, for cubensis, has nothing to do with potency. That was decided by genetics' and to say that it has little effect on potency is again incorrect - as Gartz and Bigwood + Beug have demonstrated. I suugest that the cubensis grown on brf have the ability to extract and convert far more precursors than are available, because when the same isolates are grown of millet or manure they are much more potent - significantly = from light blue stains, to dark/ mild to decent potency for cubensis.

Millet will increase the potency of cubensis significantly.
If you disagree, grow them on millet and be converted to the truth.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1702847 -

well I might as well though my 2 cents in ,I do agree that the genetic make-up is stored in the spore how ever there are alot of things to take into account and that can change them for example the PF tek dosn't have alot of nutrients that's why you get smaller shrooms,aborts and less flushes(for the most part) and anything can change the mushrooms out come like temp,humidty,light and nutrients ect.. these not only changes how many mushrooms grow and how strong they will grow but it dose change the level of potency and you can't over tweak the potency of an azurenscens from a cubensis is just not possible because of the limitations of the cubensis the mushroom has guide lines and you can't no go over them how ever if you give them a perect/good invroment they will go to the best of the guide lines.

so in a few words you are both right like ainasko said


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Welcome to my world!


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1704623 -

Quote:
BRF IS THE CRAPPEST SUBSTRATE!! IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME GROW CUBIES ON MILLET AND GET BACK TO ME!!




My question still remains then, is the potency from brf THAT bad??

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1704710 -

I'm happy with the potency I get from shrooms grown with brf but to each his own I guess.you may be able to tell the difference in potency but brf is still one of the most common teks out there so it can't be all that bad!!!


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Welcome to my world!


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1704976 -

I didn?t experience a noticeable difference from mushrooms grown on BRF or millet.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1705176 -

Come on Anno - you've got to be saying that to stir me! :smile:
I could list atleast 20 people who agreed - many of whom suggested that i try millet myself. Bigger yields, chunkier mushrooms and definately better potency than brf.
When i started out i grew the same isolate of tasmanians on brf, manure bulk, millet, and rye grain and the millet babies dried blew all our heads off at half the dose of BRF tassies.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1705220 -

Take two dry grams of cubensis grown with BRF and two grams of dry cubensis grown on millet and it is doubtful one would notice a difference in potency. The difference noted would, likely, be in yield, but let's not argue again.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1705250 -

>but let's not argue again.

Why not? :laugh:

blue: as i said, I?m not saying it will always be the case, but I didn?t notice a difference.
Perhaps you have a crappy rice in oz ? Was it old and eaten up by the bugs? 


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1705265 -

Unrelated to the topic, but has Audrey Tautou been in any notable American films?


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1705276 -

No, she has been in notable French films. There are film making nations beside US Americans on the Earth  :mushroom2: 


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1705281 -

what...... the world does not revolve around us americans now i know your kiding


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1705282 -

Anno said:
No, she has been in notable French films. There are film making nations beside US Americans on the Earth  :mushroom2:   


I searched the name on Yahoo and noticed she was a French actress.  I only asked out of curiosity and was not implying the world revolved around the US.



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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1705297 -

It?s ok, I just wanted to point out that there was a French film industry, in case anybody might not know it.

On a brighter note, she plays in an U.K. film "Dirty Pretty Things" starting next week in the US.

http://www.miramax.com/dirty_pretty_things/


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1705327 -

Top is millet grown, bottom is BRF grown.



It's obvious, millet grown stains/darkens more and they only darken further as they dry. Millet also grows them bigger and more meaty than BRF. Like mull, I like booty. Millet gives more food to the unit input. Millet costs less to do. Millet make less mess in the procedure. Millet has less work involved period. What more could you want?



Quality of produce in Oz is excellent. That's a fact.

I use BRF in asian style cooking. Human food grade but it's not as good as millet in my observations. Millet is better and that's the feed back from friends (it's not my imagination) one of which has a BIG tolerance. He chews down 21 grams of millet grown GT in a hit. He smokes only filth and lots of it. Wants the best. No candy tales.

Millet in comparison is HID. I'll try manure when the warm weather comes. But I know BRF is obsolete for mushrooms.



You grow with what gives the results.



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Convert Metric and Imperial.

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1705344 -

Again, I was only stating what my observations were.

And, I hope that you are aware that bluing alone doesn?t give a measure about the potency of a mushroom. If you would go by bluing, then P. semilanceata would be an inactive mushroom, which couldn?t be farther from the truth.

I agree on the other points you listed that speak in favor of millet, I use it myself.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1705447 -

Anno...

>>>And, I hope that you are aware that bluing alone doesn?t give a measure about the potency of a mushroom.

As I said in my 1st post in this thread....

Quote:
If the level of staining in fruits as they dry is a guide of potency (not saying it is nor do I want to involve myself in that old debate) well millet grown leaves BRF shrooms for dead.



The definite darker colour aside, my observations -- including mates local who have eaten the millet grown -- it's more potent than BRF.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1705539 -

>If the level of staining in fruits as they dry is a guide of potency

Well, it is not.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1706130 -

I said guide in the context of a "maybe" and not in the context of a "definitive measure" nor did I wish to be roped into such a debate. Don't crop quotes to put words in my mouth.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1706144 -

but if it's not then it can not be a maybe ????


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1706180 -

Starter said:
Don't crop quotes to put words in my mouth and I hate black people and Jews.


Just kidding.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1706226 -

ROFL!!  :grin:


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All of my posts are for discussion purposes only. All posts concerning cultivation of mushrooms refer to legal gourmet mushrooms only. Yes, I support monkey-human relationships.

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: kukusz]
    #1706342 -

Well, I put it forward that millet shrooms are darker than BRF and I know millet shrooms are stronger...so make of that as you want.

BTW, that was some funny shit Ainasko


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: kukusz]
    #1706362 -

/|\ /|\
LMAO!!! | thats some funny stuff |

someone above said "what more do you need{to prove millet is better)"

How about a PF style tek with millet adapted? I actualy have access to quite a bit of millet (a few relatives breed exotic birds, and buy millet in bulk), If it could be used in cakes I might consider it, but I think my hamster needs to get a harvest or two under his little hamster sized belt before he tries to get all complicated.

whatchya think?
Pip

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1706726 -

:smile: :laugh: :grin: :grin: :shocked: :crazy: :blush: :ooo: :smile: :tongue: :grin: :thumbup: :heartpump: 


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buh

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1706906 -

Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BRF IS THE CRAPPEST SUBSTRATE!! IF YOU DONT BELIEVE ME GROW CUBIES ON MILLET AND GET BACK TO ME!!



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



My question still remains then, is the potency from brf THAT bad??




No. Especially if your still getting the hang of it.

BM- you seem to have some sort of beef with both the PF tek and the PF strain (as indicated in one of my threads). my sister knows several people who have been humbled by the mighty PF fat-ass mushroom, grown ala PF tek. they came back asking for more of those "weird ass puffy shrooms".

-BF


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Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1706934 -

Quote:
When i started out i grew the same isolate of tasmanians on brf, manure bulk, millet, and rye grain and the millet babies dried blew all our heads off at half the dose of BRF tassies.




each strain and isolate will react differently to a given substrate/environment. i respect your experience and the conclutions of your test subjects, however a single experiment such as you've described is insufficient to make generalizations.

-BF


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1707441 -

Anno when did you say it may not always be the case? I cant see that anywhere in the thread - so when you say 'as i said', well you didnt.
Maybe your millet in Europe is crap - just as plausible a reason as BRF being eaten by bugs in Australia. It was Uma Guma, Major Millet, Club99 and Dimitri who suggested i try millet because of its higher potency and yield. Fortyounces, Roadkill, workman and quite a few others i could list could probably agree that it is the better substrate in terms of yields and potency.
Una from Mushmush told me that he didnt notice a difference between it and rye grain, so maybe it is your european millet.
Another point is that when you are talking about filling 250ml jars with either a 50/50 mixture of brown rice flour and vermiculite or a full jar of millet you have twice the amount of actual substrate. Althought I would contend that even straight brown rice alone in a jar would produce mushrooms that are less potent than the same jar of millet.
Anno I am unsure why you couldnt notice the difference, but then again we've argued about similar issues before.
Your above statement relating to the bluing reaction not being a valuable guide for determining potency in cubensis using the example of semilanceata is interesting. The fact that Semilanceata does not always stain blue, yet has high levels of psilocybin and baeocystin indicates that Stamets and Gartz suggestion that the bluing reaction is indicative of the oxidisation of psilocin more probable. Since studies by Gartz, Bigwood and Beug and Stivje and De Meijer only found significant differences in the content of psilocin and not the more stable psilocybin in their studies of various cubensis, your own statement provides argument that the bluing reaction is the best guage we have to measure the potency of cubensis. Ten points to me:)
Finally:
'Take two dry grams of cubensis grown with BRF and two grams of dry cubensis grown on millet and it is doubtful one would notice a difference in potency. The difference noted would, likely, be in yield, but let's not argue again. '
Why is it doubtful? Have you tried it? If you havent how can you make that statement? I appreciate your input, but why make these kinds of statements if you havent tried it? Like Ive said, it is proven in a study that substrate does effect the potency of cubensis. If you can show me a reference for a study that indicates otherwise? What I think is more doubtful is that you really are a student of biology. :smile:



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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1707470 -

Firstly since the mushroom that was grown on each of those substrates was a clone (the same isolate) I think that is indicitive enough. Secondly i didnt feel the need to make further studies, because at the time most of those I was was talking about it with (Dimitri, Hongus, Major Millet, Uma Guma, and others ive listed above) agreed - it was commonly accepted.
No, I dont have any 'beef' with PF - because ive made factual statements that disagree with what you might read on Pf's site, this does not mean i have any petty personal issues with that vendor. It annoys me greatly that because YOU dont agree with what Im saying, that you would reduce it to some 'beef'. Like Ive said, if you took the time to grow your favourite cubensis (which sounds like PF - and if you've grown many cubensis you would realise that the genetics of that strain are redudant - PF himself even admited it) on millet or brf you would agree.

The bluing reaction is indicative on the levels of psilocin (Stamets, Gartz and Buchanan) and as this is the principle alkaloid that varies in cubensis (Gartz, Bigwood and Beug, Stivje and DeMeijer) the level of bluing is the best indicator we have to determine potency in Psilocybe cubensis. It does not however hold true for other alkaloid baring mushrooms.


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Edited by Zen Peddler (07/11/03 11:33 PM)

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1707509 -

>Anno when did you say it may not always be the case? I cant see that
>anywhere in the thread - so when you say 'as i said', well you didnt.

bm, please reade the thread, take your time, you?ll find it.

>Una from Mushmush told me that he didnt notice a difference between
>it and rye grain, so maybe it is your european millet.

Club99 lives in Europe too.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1707540 -

Does he? I thought he was Mexican? Or did he used to be? Hey did you notice any signficant differences in potency between cyanescens, azurescens and arcana?


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1707553 -

He lived in Mexico for a couple of years.

I never had P. cyanescens, P. arcana(Graz) appeared a bit more potent than P. azurescens, but I wouldn?t bet my head on it.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1707557 -

ah right.
Thanks for the feedback. I didnt notice much difference between subaeruginosa and cyanescens - too early to say with azurescens, but great clone all the same mate.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1707777 -

Quote:
someone above said "what more do you need{to prove millet is better)"

How about a PF style tek with millet adapted? I actualy have access to quite a bit of millet (a few relatives breed exotic birds, and buy millet in bulk), If it could be used in cakes I might consider it, but I think my hamster needs to get a harvest or two under his little hamster sized belt before he tries to get all complicated.

whatchya think?
Pip




this is the question that makes all this bickering pointless.  if you are growing cakes and you want dependable results, use the PF tek as is.  its virtually foolproof and will provide sufficiently potent fruits.  you can experiment with different substrate formulations once you've gotten the hang of things.

i hope you've managed to find some answers  :wink:

-BF


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1707785 -

Quote:
No, I dont have any 'beef' with PF - because ive made factual statements that disagree with what you might read on Pf's site, this does not mean i have any petty personal issues with that vendor. It annoys me greatly that because YOU dont agree with what Im saying, that you would reduce it to some 'beef'


it's not my intention to "annoy you greatly".  Nor did i mean to imply that you had any personal issues with the vendor.  perhaps "beef" wasn't the right word.  i simply meant that you seem biased, that's all.

Quote:
Like Ive said, if you took the time to grow your favourite cubensis (which sounds like PF - and if you've grown many cubensis you would realise that the genetics of that strain are redudant - PF himself even admited it) on millet or brf you would agree.



my birdie has grown many strains on many substrates, from brf to bulk.  indeed, the PF strain is a little bit twacked in the DNA.  i never said otherwise.  in fact, that's one of the most interesting aspects of the strain, IMO.  maybe i'm biased (i have a mentally handicapped, genetically imperfect brother who gives me great joy and inspiration.)  is PF my favorite strain?  its qualities put it towards the top of my list, but there are still plenty strains to be tried.

don't take this the wrong way, but i noticed you mentioned in an earlier post that you are "to lazy for manners."  from my point of veiw it takes a lot less energy to maintain an agreeable point of veiw than a confrontational one.  had you been more flexible, less absolute in your opinion you could have saved yourself a few posts, i think.  we all have different experience and as irksome as it can be, whats true for one isn't always true for another.  there's just too many factors at play.  I, for one, am too lazy to be contrary  :tongue:

:sun:PEACE, LOVE, and, RESPECT to all here :sun:-
BF 


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Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: BrainFarmer]
    #1707912 -

Looks like BM has sealed it.

bluemeanie said:
The bluing reaction is indicative on the levels of psilocin (Stamets, Gartz and Buchanan) and as this is the principle alkaloid that varies in cubensis (Gartz, Bigwood and Beug, Stivje and DeMeijer) the level of bluing is the best indicator we have to determine potency in Psilocybe cubensis. It does not however hold true for other alkaloid baring mushrooms. 




"...the level of bluing is the best indicator we have to determine potency in Psilocybe cubensis." I like that. :smile:

Pictures speak where words won't, millet grown Golden Teacher and dry. Some of it is almost black!! I know for a fact it's better -- more potent -- than BRF. None of the BRF I've grown has come close in such deep dark colour or trip grunt. Funny how the deeper colour and routinely too coincides to millet grown and so too does the potency. Aren't facts based on the analysis of observations? Dogma is seldom science. 


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707924 -

He didn?t seal it all all.

"...the level of bluing is the best indicator we have to determine potency in Psilocybe cubensis."

Great.
Does this sentence have any value, if you look at it from a scientific point of view?
None.
Bluing is (at best) an indicator of the level of psilocin in a mushroom. And nothing more.

Following a similar logic bluemeanie did I could say "millet grown mushrooms have more psilocin and less psilocybin."

Now prove the opposite.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1707925 -

Quote:
Your above statement relating to the bluing reaction not being a valuable guide for determining potency in cubensis using the example of semilanceata is interesting. The fact that Semilanceata does not always stain blue, yet has high levels of psilocybin and baeocystin indicates that Stamets and Gartz suggestion that the bluing reaction is indicative of the oxidisation of psilocin more probable. Since studies by Gartz, Bigwood and Beug and Stivje and De Meijer only found significant differences in the content of psilocin and not the more stable psilocybin in their studies of various cubensis, your own statement provides argument that the bluing reaction is the best guage we have to measure the potency of cubensis. Ten points to me:)


this is a fascinating thread, keep it up guys. i can imagine you sitting over a beer together batting it back and forth. i have great respect for you both. :thumbup:

i don't pretend to have the experience to join in, but i see flaws in this paragraph's dialectic, so i'm gonna have a go anyway, just for fun.  the bluing reaction is the best guage we have may be true, but is obsolete once you have agreed that potency is dependent also on psilocybin and other alkaloids.

although this is a side issue to the millet / brf > 'potency' debate, it takes centre stage if the possibility exists that brf favours psilocybin (no bluing) while millet favours psilocyn (bluing) production. maybe i missed this being discussed earlier.

what do you guys think? :confused:

(shirley loves a good debate. let's all have a mass debate together  :laugh:  :blush:)
           


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buh

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1707935 -

All I need is the qualitative feed back that millet grown slays the BRF and that's it. I know it is. And in all fairness, the bluing issue has been said all along to be a guide or an indicator. It appears you're out to make a dogma on what you haven't proven.

Going by observations, this applies too Anno on how Bio-Mix nutes shoots to shit Dutch Magic and Budswell on more productive mull and for that matter CANNA and GH nutes. Scales and feedback talks. I only go for results. $pin it how you want, this ain't religion. It's based on what people observe.

But if you want to get all scientific, do have access to chromatography or the indepth papers to validate your claims? Or is it all hot air and ego at stake? umm.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: shirley knott]
    #1707936 -

Now this would all be great if one was to just consider psilocin only in terms of potency. But when you throw the others in the mix there is no real indicators. How is it not possible for brown rice grown mushrooms to produce more psilocybin and less psilocin? The bluing reaction guess test would be moot.

I am not jumping into the BRF/WBS debate. I have eaten mushies that blued very dark and tripped. I have eaten mushies that did not blue very much at all and tripped just as well. Judging from there is more than one alkaloid present and only one causes the bluing, then it is in no way an accurate indicator of true potency. If one is only looking at psilocin, then yes, it would be a good indicator.


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1707939 -

i agree with you. potency is hard, if not impossible to measure.


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buh

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707942 -

Quote:
Going by observations, this applies too Anno on how Bio-Mix nutes shoots to shit Dutch Magic and Budswell on more productive mull and for that matter CANNA and GH nutes. Scales and feedback talks. I only go for results. $pin it how you want, this ain't religion. It's based on what people observe


:wtf:



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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1707944 -

shirley knott said:
although this is a side issue to the millet / brf > 'potency' debate, it takes centre stage if the possibility exists that brf favours psilocybin (no bluing) while millet favours psilocyn (bluing) production. maybe i missed this being discussed earlier.             


I can't see how. Reading tryptophans are the precursor to tryptamines http://www.rhodium.ws/chemistry/tryptophan.html and they're the precursor of psilocybin and psilocin, then why else is there a FAQ on beefing up the magic with banging in tryptamine...umm. LMAO. Was PF going that path because BRF was lacking all along LOL.

So here's a couple of links that prove that BRF is lower in tryptophan compared to millet. Compare the two.

http://www.doggieconnection.com/recipe/info/rice_flour_brown.html

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/plantsci/crops/a805w.htm

In my findings dry millet shrooms pack a better punch than dry BRF so therefore there's psilocybin (more of it) in the finish.

Anno, you're yet to disprove that. You have offered no visual materials and no sources and then claimed BM's statements as whackery, despite their basis on mycologist findings. Funny that.

I'm thinking this whole thread has entered the political arena, where it puts the PF tek into disrepute because that tek is the very plinth that pimped his sales (so there's more at $take LMAO). Not to mention it defiles a spore deity with furious anger to the blasphemers LOL.

This is no different to the Canna-forum threads that pull the wings off Dr Watson, Rosethal and Cervantez. The three Canna-gods. The howls of indignation. Seen this shit before. Too funny. :laugh:
   


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707945 -

ATWAR, my point is simple to understand. You use what works that gives the results. Be that hydro or shrooms. There's no debate in that.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707951 -

Quote:
Bio-Mix nutes shoots to shit Dutch Magic and Budswell on more productive mull and for that matter CANNA and GH nutes


Please ellaborate on this and how it pertains to the discussion of BRF vs. Millet? That whole sentance was just jibberish to me...

I understand that you use what works best. Unless you dont strive to get the best possible...


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707963 -

Quote:

http://www.doggieconnection.com/recipe/info/rice_flour_brown.html

http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/plantsci/crops/a805w.htm


very interesting. so 100g of brf contains 0.09g tryptophan, whereas 100g of millet contains 0.17g of tryptophan?

wha happens when you add in the weights of brf/millet used per unit volume spawn? i'm guessing that a litre jar of millet contains more tryptophan precursor than 4 half-pint jars of brf/verm (equivalent volume).

but then you stick this into other nutrients, like poo or straw, or bran. so doesn't the original amino acid precursor levels in the spawn become irrelevant again? or has this set in motion the mycelium's inherent metabolic rate, or whatever? are we back in the realms of DNA again - remember,

Quote:
  Ainasko said
i fuck corpses and then feast on their marrow, as DNA source for my typtophan experiments



(sorry to steal Ainasko's gag, i loved it :kiss:)   


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buh

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: shirley knott]
    #1707973 -

ATWAR, it pertains to the BRF v's Millet discussion by going with what works best.

I see growing, be it shrooms or hydro, in a similar manner. One tries to get the most out of what they're doing in their area given and achieve the best possible product. They don't grow with methods that are less satisfying in outcome to be politically polite to those that stand to gain the most peddling what doesn't work best. It's as simple as that. Call that my philosophy on illegal growing if you will.

BTW, Bio-Mix is an organic acid based hydro chelate, it increases cell differentiation. Mull is Aussie slang for pot. Lord knows I have to wade through no end of American jargon left and right, then face ethnocentric ignorance to my everyday language in TCP/IP a.k.a "gibberish" eh.

Sort of reminds me of this thread.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Forum4&Number=1653255


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707980 -

Excuse me if I stepped on your toes there. So sorry to misunderstand. But, I would like to know how there was anything related to the ethnic differences between our countries in ANYTHING I posted besides a simple difference in slang. I think you should take your problems with our cultural differences to another forum.

If "Bio-Mix nutes shoots to shit Dutch Magic and Budswell on more productive mull and for that matter CANNA and GH nutes" is your everyday language, then no wonder you see others having trouble understanding you as ignorance.

I also fail to see the comparison to the soup post except you stated that Americans have more processed food. Where is the ignorance? For the record, we have soup packets like that here, bags of pre-mixed soup ready to cook...


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707984 -

Quote:
What I think is more doubtful is that you really are a student of biology.


I do enjoy a good debate, but some cannot maintain their senses long enough to prevent themselves from arguing.

Since you doubt my very existance, debating this issue with you further is pointless.

Everyone "knows" they are right anyway.

No worries on my end. Take care.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1707985 -

ATWAR, if you were in Oz and you said that in a hydro shop, it would be perfectly understood. Of course they'd argue that X, Y & Z is better (since they coin out of it i.e. they make their own mixes to flog).

As for the thread given, if you look at it, it was a clear case of regional misundertanding vis Oz/America because of terminology and cultural difference. That's clear as day.

It appears it's you, more than me who has his spines up. Don't project.

Now care to add to this threads discussion or hijack it for yourself?


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1707986 -

>Or is it all hot air and ego at stake?

You disqualify yourself as someone who can be taken seriously with comments like this.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1707991 -

C'mon Anno, looking for an alibi to conveniently slip is disingenuous.

Or are you really that thin skinned?


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708001 -

It's possible that everyone is right with this debate. So much of cultivation is based on personal preferences.

Through polite debate, we hopefully learn. Through argument and personal attacks, we learn nothing of cultivation, but everything of our character.

Everyone, take care and stay safe. Enjoy your weekend.



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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708003 -

I am sorry but I cannot let this ride out like this. Because I misunderstood a sentence and asked you to clarify it, I get accused of "ethnocentric ignorance".

And the thread given was a misunderstanding of the type of soup that was being considered as a substrate. It was not due to regional differences. What was clear as day was that canned soup was considered because the person never stated what type of soup. It was you that brought the regional differences into the mix.

And personal attacks on experienced shroomery members will not get you very far...


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708021 -

>C'mon Anno, looking for an alibi to conveniently slip is disingenuous.

Joker.

Would you please read the last paragraph of this page ?



This is from document:
http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/Beug&Bigwood/index.htm mentioned above by bluemeanie, btw.

"Recreational users of hallucinogenic mushrooms sometimes regard the intensity of bluing as a guide to psilocybin and psilocin levels, but we could find no correlation between degree of bluing and either psilocybin or psilocin levels."

mmmmkay?


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1708039 -

Who can argue with this?


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1708132 -

ATWAR, is that the reason for your name, the "shock & awe" big red shiny buttons boy that gets easily pressed? Get over it. This is just the net, not a contact sport.

So far the BRF argument isn't doing too well in this thread. Is that your motives ATWAR with your "you won't go far" spin? Oh, I'm just shaking matey LMAO. It's obviously a taboo to be candid about BRF and it hurts those that need the BRF paradigm. Obviously this costs me nothing. I have my genetics in a wide range of genera. I have no need to be a nepotistic sycophant for I have no vested interests and a cyber image is not my goal. Can you speak the same? Take a few breaths and relax before you reply.

Now Anno thanks on the jpeg scan input. The problem with it is that we're talking Psilocybe cubensis and the scan discusses Psilocybe cyanescens, P.semilanceata and P.stuntzii as the "magic mushrooms" wild picking folks are hunting down in the land of the brave and the free. Nothing on cultivation funnily enough, nor mention either in the references of that scan to Psilocybe cubensis. The scan speaks of the Pacific North West and to my searchings on the net P.cubensis does not grow there. Therefore I can only assume the scanned article is not speaking about P.cubensis. Convenient indeed to just point at a vague (no specific region/species) bottom paragraph umm. Could you get something specific.

Now I could drag in how pans go black as the ace from paddocks in North NSW Oz and they are without doubt more potent than cubes. But that would be as irrelevant to this discussion as your scan, because and at risk of repeating, this discussion is on Psilocybe cubensis. Capiche. Remember, BM's sources spoke of P.cubensis, so deal with it. True, a source author you use is one from BM, but that's a trick of the hand to spin past me as it doesn't speak of P.cubensis. I conclude your irrelevant scan was at best very selective and an embroidery of your assertions. So who's the joker. umm. I'll take that back if you can give me a direct source that speaks specifically on P.cubensis.

What's more, the scan does not refute my basic observations that millet grown Psilocybe cubensis is more potent than BRF and interestingly enough, their colour is deeper than that grown on BRF. This idicates that there's an increase in psilocin and psilocybin in millet grown. I'll go with what I observe in reals and not a jpeg scan that's not even on P.cubensis topic. Of course, everyone's grow/strain/subtrates will differ, so ATWAR for example can go with what he finds contrary.

I will though, meet you half way Anno. You said:

"Bluing is (at best) an indicator of the level of psilocin in a mushroom."

That's a fair point and one you did add after BM admonished you.

Now the blue colour debate aside, the real meat of this thread is for the BRF crew to find something to prove BRF to be as good as millet, or for that matter other substrates.

Dunno how you can, it's scientific fact that BRF is lower in precursors than millet and a search through google confirms this. So far the case against BRF appears stronger. The question in my mind, why defend the indefensible yet by their own admission, they grow on millet eh Anno. :laugh: No wonder the side line circus of the colour argument LOL, as it ducks conveniently away from the real issue of the threads question. Which is...

" BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time?"

Indeed.

Game on.           


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708162 -

Starter said:
the real issue of the threads question. Which is..." BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time?"


no. a great learning tool for use of better substrates (better for a variety of reasons)
you are so gonna get your ass kicked, btw!

lmfao :lol: 


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buh

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: shirley knott]
    #1708198 -

As far as I can tell, the case for or against in bluing in P.cubensis, as an indicator/guide of potency is not established.

**********************************************

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?ID=3002


There is a persistent rumor in my area about psilocybin mushrooms that says if you get a bag with a lot of blue colored shrooms in it, that means it's more potent. Wouldn't a blue color at best have no effect and at worst be a sign of contamination?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A: The bluing reaction is believed to be the result of the presence of psilocin in the mushroom. The bluing is caused by the oxidization of psilocin. So some bluing generally means there is some psilocin present (don't use that as the only method of identification). Many people theorize that more blue means the mushroom is more potent, but there is no evidence for this that I know of.

In fact, it's possible that the opposite may be true. Jochen Gartz reports that in P. cubenisis, "the spontaneous bluing is a sign of a significant decomposition of the alkaloids".(1) So the blue may be the result of the destruction of psilocin...meaning more blue, less potent.

More likely is that the bluing has little to do with the overall content of psilocin or psilocybin. Several papers address this possibility.(2,3,4) It is known that several mushrooms which do not contain any psilocybin or psilocin, have a bluing reaction. It is also known that some mushrooms that do contain psilocybin and psilocin do not bruise at all.

At this point, the true cause of bluing, and therefore its relationship with the potency of any particular mushroom, is unknown.

Bluing doesn't usually have anything to do with contamination. If one is familiar with the bluing of mushrooms, the natural bluing reaction can generally be differentiated from any mold or mildew which might grow on mushrooms.

References

(sorry, they're all in german)

1. GARTZ J., 1989- Bildung und Verteilung der Indolalkaloide in Fruchtk?rpern, Myzelien und Sklerotien von Psilocybe cubensis. Beitr?ge z. Kenntnis der Pilze Mitteleuropas 5: 167-174.

2. GARTZ J., 1991- Quantitative Bestimmung der Indolderivate von Psilocybe semilanceata (Fr.) Kumm. Biochem. Physiol. Pflanzen 181: 113-128.

3. GARTZ J., 1987- Variation der Alkaloidmengen in Fruchtk?rpern von Inocybe aeruginascens. Planta Med. 48: 539-541.

4. GARTZ J., 1989- Analyse der Indolderivate in Fruchtk?rpern und Myzelien von Panaeolus subalteatus (Berk. & Br.) Sacc. Biochem. Physiol. Pflanzen 184: 171-178.



***************************************

So, until it is the debate can moth ball IMO, though the Gartz source is of interest as it relates to P.cubensis.

The thread is about BRF being a waste of time. This colour subject is a side-show.

Shirley, by your logic all new folks have to start out on PF cakes. LMAO. More trouble than its worth in Oz, as kerr and ball mason shoulderless jars don't exist. Making aluminium foil lids on glasses is tedious. Far easier to load up grain into 1lt fowler food preserving jars. For newbie Aussies, they best start out on grain at the jump and make their own syringes too to avoid the post Sep 11th customs/AQIS tighter postage world. Not that all Aussies are newbies btw, many rural Australians will work in A.bisporus farms as a $ide spin off the dairy industry. Oz is after all a more rural producing nation than the UK miss Shirley.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708281 -

This thing is getting stupid. You yourself cite an article that says that more bluing doesn?t mean more potent....

OK, why not settle this once for all:
From what I?ve seen you should be able to grow batches of cubensis using an isolate using brf and millet as substrate. For the ease of comparison I?d suggest doing PF cakes with both of them. Then send the mushrooms to someone who can do chromatographic analysis.
Or, look into http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/The_Mushroom_Entheogen,_The_Measure_of_the_Mushroom_by_C.B._Gold.16311.shtml .

Then we will see if and how big the difference is.


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1708343 -

The article is very much a devils advocate. It says it's unknown.

"At this point, the true cause of bluing, and therefore its relationship with the potency of any particular mushroom, is unknown."

Not that it's the focus of this threads inaugural question. So from that, I agree Anno it is getting stupid to continue a debate on what is an unknown. I'm happy to moth ball it until there is the conclusive data.

As for chromatography has anyone in the shroomery put the investment down in bux/time towards this? Short of such an investment, it appears most folks will go with what works best for them and I've already said what I find better with simple local feedback. I'd guess most people would do the same. Good link. :smile: Thanks. Nite. 


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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708523 -

Quote:
This is no different to the Canna-forum threads that pull the wings off Dr Watson, Rosethal and Cervantez. The three Canna-gods. The howls of indignation. Seen this shit before. Too funny.



while i certainly have respect for what PF has done for the community/hobby, i don't consider him a "god". his website claimed that PES hawaiin and golden teacher were the same strain, something that's obviously not true.


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Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

Formula: 0

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1708533 -

Quote:
>Or is it all hot air and ego at stake?

You disqualify yourself as someone who can be taken seriously with comments like this.




indeed.



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Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

Formula: 0

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708738 -

Quote:
ATWAR, is that the reason for your name, the "shock & awe" big red shiny buttons boy that gets easily pressed?



Not quite.

Quote:
So far the BRF argument isn't doing too well in this thread. Is that your motives ATWAR with your "you won't go far" spin?



Once again, I would have to disagree. Let me clarify. You appear to have much hostility directed towards anyone that tries to append information to this thread that is contrary to what you believe. Then you make personal attacks on Anno and others regarding their knowledge on the subject. It is attitudes like this that make people less willing to help you because they have no need to hear your slander.


Quote:
Oh, I'm just shaking matey LMAO.



Ok....

Quote:
I have no need to be a nepotistic sycophant for I have no vested interests and a cyber image is not my goal. Can you speak the same?



No, I cannot. I myself would like to present myself in a respectful manner, no difference if I was speaking in real life or in a forum. While it is not my intent to be a favorite, I would like others to respect me as well as I do them. It is my opinion that when one gets rude and directs inappropriate comments towards others, one loses the respect of that individual.

Quote:
No wonder the side line circus of the colour argument LOL, as it ducks conveniently away from the real issue of the threads question.



I fail to see how this is off topic and "sideline" as you say. Your posts about brown rice being lower in tryptamines was evidence enough (for me) that it (millet that is) would be a better substrate for the production of psilocin and psilocybin. The differences in the bluing reaction between fruits of the two are very much related to this discussion.

Now, how can you argue that the bluing reaction is a direct relation to potency, when the primary alkaloids are the same between P. Cubensis, and the other active species listed? If the bluing reaction is not a direct relation to potency in species other than P. Cubensis, how does it become an indicator in Cubensis? If oxidation of psilocin causes this reaction, how does it relate to the other compounds?


Edit: ^ above italics


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To give is to live...


Edited by ATWAR (07/13/03 02:56 AM)

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1708898 -

Some people just need proof in writing. Here it is.

Here is a better view of the same text.

I hope this brings this discussion to a close.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1708910 -

Shit its in themother fuckn bible so now it cant be a lie .....


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: FallenShroom]
    #1708959 -

Ainasko you should read that bible again you do want to go to heaven ?? lol



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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: FallenShroom]
    #1709005 -

Who am I to argue with Jesus? Pray for me.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1709044 -

Quote:
Some people just need proof in writing. Here it is.

Here is a better view of the same text.

I hope this brings this discussion to a close.





:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Gate Gate Paragate Parasamgate Bodhisvah

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1709057 -

shit i was gonna add something to this debate
but its kinda pointless now...
Jesus brought the hammer down....
game over.....


[hyp]

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1709864 -

Sure Anno - that applies to OTHER psilocybe mushrooms as I have all ready conceded! But seriously, I have made the point now four times and it keeps getting ignored.
STUDIES BY STIVJE AND DEMEIJER, BIGWOOD AND BEUG DEMONSTRATED FROM ANALYSIS OF PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS THAT THE ONE ALKALOID THAT VARIED THE MOST BETWEEN FRUIT BODIES AND WAS THE MOST VARIABLE WAS THE UNSTABLE PSILOCIN (which is possibly linked to the bluing reaction)
STIVJE AND DEMEIJER 1993 FOUND THAT DIFFERENT SPORES RACES AND A NEARLY IDENTICAL LEVEL OF PSILOCYBIN, BUT CONSIDERABLE VARIATION IN PSILOCIN. THEY CONCLUDED THAT THE POSSIBLE DIFFERENCE IN POTENCY BETWEEN A STRAIN LABELLED MEXICAN AND ONE LABELLED AMAZONIAN WAS DUE TO DIFFERING CONTENTS OF PSILOCIN ALONE.
Hope you have now noted my point.
1. Bluing indicates psilocin
2. the main alkaloid that varies in cubensis according to these two studies and possibily Gartz is psilocin.
3. Psilocybe cubensis - blues more, more potent.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1709910 -

At the end of that day Starter has demonstrated that millet has more precursors than Brown Rice, therefore the original point of this thread has been demonstrated - although you could have listened to me from the start and wasted less of your time.
Anyway - believe what you like.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1709936 -

Well, at the risk of sounding completely ignorant, What exactly is 'millet?' Where is it found? Can it be used with PF-tek? 

Thanks in advance for answering my silly question...  :nut:
truly,
Shade

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1710208 -

I love it. Leave it to bluemeanie.

Quote:
PSILOCIN (which is possibly linked to the bluing reaction)


Now, I couldn?t help but notice the "possible" part of this theory. Is the actual method of the bluing reaction not clear? What I mean is, if psilocin oxidized blue alone, then it would be clear cut. I assume there are other chemicals involved in the reaction that have not been studied enough (or have been left out), is this correct? I do not agree, nor do I disagree that the bluing reaction is the true indicator. I think there are more variables that have not been considered and to say it is a hands down indicator is not logical.


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1710611 -

>STUDIES BY STIVJE AND DEMEIJER, BIGWOOD AND BEUG
>DEMONSTRATED FROM ANALYSIS OF PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS THAT
>THE ONE ALKALOID THAT VARIED THE MOST BETWEEN FRUIT
>BODIES AND WAS THE MOST VARIABLE WAS THE UNSTABLE
>PSILOCIN

But this is simply not true! The study doesnt say this at all!

Psilocybin varied as well with a factor of up to 4. If you look at the data, you will actually see that the absolute content of psilocybin varied much more than the absolute content in psilocin.

Here is the table:
http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/images/Variation3.jpg

Here is the whole document:
http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/



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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1710737 -

Particularly interesting:

Quote:
"Psilocin, on the other hand, generally was absent in the first one or two flushes, reached maximum by the fourth flush, and then appeared to start to decline."


Quote:
"In two other strains grown by other sources, we also observed nearly complete absence of psilocin in the first flush."


If oxidation of psilocin is thought to be the main cause of the bluing reaction, its logical the first flush would show virtually no signs of bluing if the chief chemical responsible were absent.


But then it goes on to say this:

Quote:
"In these, we analyzed the caps and stems separately and found that the caps generally contained twice as much psilocybin as the stems, but that the small amount of psilocin present was entirely in the stems. In contrast, our Amazon strain had a trace of psilocin in the cap but not in the stem. The cap and stem contained equal amounts of psilocybin.


Very interesting indeed.


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1710747 -

ATWAR said:
Your posts about brown rice being lower in tryptamines was evidence enough (for me) that it would be a better substrate for the production of psilocin and psilocybin.



LMAO you're beyond hope. Heterotrophs are what they eat. Karma though, keep growing on your BFR.

Alios.


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1710785 -

Actually that was an error. It was supposed to be millet would be a better substrate for the production of psilocin and psilocybin (by it I mean millet). But then you jump in here with a personal attack, and an assumption that I grow on BRF.




Thanks for pointing out my typo though.


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1710810 -

ATWAR said:
Actually that was an error. It was supposed to be millet would be a better substrate for the production of psilocin and psilocybin (by it I mean millet).


6 pages of bloat and now we agree. :smile: 


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1710845 -

I think you need to go back and read my posts. Please come back and quote me on where I said that BRF was better, or disagreed with you that millet is better. I entered once the bluing topic was brought in the mix. As a matter of fact, I believe I stated in my first post that I did not want to get involved in that debate. My only intentions were to state my theory that bluing is not an accurate indicator of potency.

6 pages of bloat? There are some very good points made in this thread. It is my personal opinion that you are paying more attention to discrediting people than the actual discussion at hand. In the end, no matter if your right about anything, when you make rude comments towards others, you just end up looking like the ass of the party.


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1710848 -

It was lengthy, but a good read


-XiC


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Don't soak your WBS dummy! There's an =>easy<= way.
For Your Health!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: XiC_clone]
    #1710889 -

Quote:
It was lengthy, but a good read



i tend to disagree..
all this fuss, and nothing was accomplished....
nothin but speculation.... noone knows the real facts, only possibilities....
funny thing is, the argument was takin place over what is probably a miniscule diffrence in potency.... nothing anyone would ever notice....
Sheesh.....
what a let down....
here i was expecting somesort of climatic ending where the good guy gets tricked into chasing the rogue agent into a warehouse, only to find out that he was living a LIE the WHOLE TIME, he really WASNT a secret agent working for the CIA, he was actually a monkey dressed up like ronald reagan!

now that would have been an good read....

anyways, the only good thing to come out of this thread is i got to see alot of audrey tatou....
amalie is one of my fav movies, children of the lost city was great too.. i havnt seen delicatessin yet, but i heard its just as good....

so if theres one thing we can all agree on.... its that movies by Jean-Pierre Jeunet are good....

[hyp]

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1710891 -

A good read, indeed. lengthy? no.

unfortunately the sample size was far too small to prove much of anything in that article - it could be compared (albeit badly) to me bringing you one family of short redheads, one of tall blondes and a third of medium height brunettes, then deciding that height and hair colour were related.

still interesting, though. i assume that research in this area is quite limited. is there anything anywhere on how 'potency' is defined, in terms of absolute/relative/cumulative alkaloid contents, between and within species? is there an animal model to test it on, a physiological system to measure PK/PD relationships?

all here seem to agree that bluing probably indicates psilocyn, and that brf contains fewer tryptophan precursors. all here who have done both also never switched back to brf after trying millet. i'm also sure that most people give their mycelium more nutrients to eat than just the millet, before fruiting. so we're all on the same side, trying to dissect the conclusions from limited evidence. even us city slickin' poms know that!

As Plato said, the only thing of which i am sure is that i know nothing.

sk :kiss:       


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buh

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: shirley knott]
    #1710903 -

Quote:
unfortunately the sample size was far too small to prove much of anything in that article - it could be compared (albeit badly) to me bringing you one family of short redheads, one of tall blondes and a third of medium height brunettes, then deciding that height and hair colour were related.


You bring up a good point. To quote the article again:

Quote:
"Mycelium obtained from the spore print was kept as a stock culture on various agars."


This would lead me to believe that they were working with an isolate. Would this not produce fruits that have less varying genetics, which would lead to more uniform fruits? I can see the variation between groups of mushrooms in a muti-spore inoculation could very well have different levels of tryptamines and be closer to your analogy.

I think the link Anno posted was well worth the read... But look at it like this: How would one put a measure on the level of blue. You can?t simply say "this one blued a level 7 on the potency level" even if it were a direct indicator. What I would like to know is if any studies have been performed on the actual mechanism of the bluing reaction. All I have seen is that psilocin is thought to be involved.


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To give is to live...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1710947 -

It has long been held that the blueing reaction is due to an indole oxidation , however psilocybin is not the only indole and in fact not all indoles are even active. That would imply that the blueing reaction would have no validity as to the strength even if you could quantify the amount of blueing on a scale . As I recall Wassons did not ask the curandero " how blue did these get ?" NOW back to the original question , is brf a waste of time . Answer -- NO , how can it be a waste of time if it gives a product that has the properties that one wishes and it gives a person information .


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"I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have."
- Thomas Jefferson

Fly high and I will meet you there .
- Timothy Leary

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: 284_27]
    #1711126 -

Everyone made their points and none can find a comfortable median or is still open to other opinions. Is this over now or is the cage match next?

Too much testosterone in here.



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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1728696 -

Not true technically of Bigwood, but quite true of Stivje and Demeijer as you will see when you read it. So therefore it is 'simply' half true - so does that make it wrong or right?? :smile:
At the end of the day ive found that with other mushrooms the bluing reaction is not useful in guaging potency - mexicana and semilanceata rarely stain blue much at all. Ive found that different woodlovers have a different colouration of their bluing, but still it isnt a good guage there.
With cubensis i believe that when i have bioassayed cubies that have stained dark blue, they have been more potent everytime. ANd please dont give me that 'set and setting' or the 'mind playing tricks on you' responses because for me they are redudant.
If you don believe me I dont really care, but my just trying to provide my own experiences - most of which Anno will argue with. 


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1729455 -

So ummmmm....yeah....Ill just go ahead and start with BRF.
Thanks everyone

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Peregrin_Took]
    #1729577 -

whahahah I think you guys scared him


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Welcome to my world!


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Psilocybin_monkey]
    #1729747 -

"Too much testosterone in here. "


you raise mine


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Psilocybeingzz]
    #1734206 -

millet is better...


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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1734241 -

lol


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Grow Mushrooms from Spores - PF-Tek for Simple Minds

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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #3523899 -

If a shroom has blue because the psilocin oxidized, then wouldn't there be less psilocin in the shroom if it had oxidized out?


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:cussing::whip:

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* Substitute for brown rice flour... mastacheefa 7,012 14 09/08/20 02:46 AM
by r9o2c2o
* whole wheat flour instead of brown rice flour? LSAuser 9,346 6 09/18/02 07:13 PM
by LSAuser
* Brown Rice Flour? trains 1,725 2 02/23/02 10:37 PM
by trains

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