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InvisibleStarter
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1708132 - 07/12/03 09:12 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

ATWAR, is that the reason for your name, the "shock & awe" big red shiny buttons boy that gets easily pressed? Get over it. This is just the net, not a contact sport.

So far the BRF argument isn't doing too well in this thread. Is that your motives ATWAR with your "you won't go far" spin? Oh, I'm just shaking matey LMAO. It's obviously a taboo to be candid about BRF and it hurts those that need the BRF paradigm. Obviously this costs me nothing. I have my genetics in a wide range of genera. I have no need to be a nepotistic sycophant for I have no vested interests and a cyber image is not my goal. Can you speak the same? Take a few breaths and relax before you reply.

Now Anno thanks on the jpeg scan input. The problem with it is that we're talking Psilocybe cubensis and the scan discusses Psilocybe cyanescens, P.semilanceata and P.stuntzii as the "magic mushrooms" wild picking folks are hunting down in the land of the brave and the free. Nothing on cultivation funnily enough, nor mention either in the references of that scan to Psilocybe cubensis. The scan speaks of the Pacific North West and to my searchings on the net P.cubensis does not grow there. Therefore I can only assume the scanned article is not speaking about P.cubensis. Convenient indeed to just point at a vague (no specific region/species) bottom paragraph umm. Could you get something specific.

Now I could drag in how pans go black as the ace from paddocks in North NSW Oz and they are without doubt more potent than cubes. But that would be as irrelevant to this discussion as your scan, because and at risk of repeating, this discussion is on Psilocybe cubensis. Capiche. Remember, BM's sources spoke of P.cubensis, so deal with it. True, a source author you use is one from BM, but that's a trick of the hand to spin past me as it doesn't speak of P.cubensis. I conclude your irrelevant scan was at best very selective and an embroidery of your assertions. So who's the joker. umm. I'll take that back if you can give me a direct source that speaks specifically on P.cubensis.

What's more, the scan does not refute my basic observations that millet grown Psilocybe cubensis is more potent than BRF and interestingly enough, their colour is deeper than that grown on BRF. This idicates that there's an increase in psilocin and psilocybin in millet grown. I'll go with what I observe in reals and not a jpeg scan that's not even on P.cubensis topic. Of course, everyone's grow/strain/subtrates will differ, so ATWAR for example can go with what he finds contrary.

I will though, meet you half way Anno. You said:

"Bluing is (at best) an indicator of the level of psilocin in a mushroom."

That's a fair point and one you did add after BM admonished you.

Now the blue colour debate aside, the real meat of this thread is for the BRF crew to find something to prove BRF to be as good as millet, or for that matter other substrates.

Dunno how you can, it's scientific fact that BRF is lower in precursors than millet and a search through google confirms this. So far the case against BRF appears stronger. The question in my mind, why defend the indefensible yet by their own admission, they grow on millet eh Anno. :laugh: No wonder the side line circus of the colour argument LOL, as it ducks conveniently away from the real issue of the threads question. Which is...

" BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time?"

Indeed.

Game on.           


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Offlineshirley knott
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708162 - 07/12/03 09:34 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Starter said:
the real issue of the threads question. Which is..." BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time?"



no. a great learning tool for use of better substrates (better for a variety of reasons)
you are so gonna get your ass kicked, btw!

lmfao :lol: 


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InvisibleStarter
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: shirley knott]
    #1708198 - 07/12/03 09:59 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

As far as I can tell, the case for or against in bluing in P.cubensis, as an indicator/guide of potency is not established.

**********************************************

http://www.erowid.org/ask/ask.cgi?ID=3002


There is a persistent rumor in my area about psilocybin mushrooms that says if you get a bag with a lot of blue colored shrooms in it, that means it's more potent. Wouldn't a blue color at best have no effect and at worst be a sign of contamination?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A: The bluing reaction is believed to be the result of the presence of psilocin in the mushroom. The bluing is caused by the oxidization of psilocin. So some bluing generally means there is some psilocin present (don't use that as the only method of identification). Many people theorize that more blue means the mushroom is more potent, but there is no evidence for this that I know of.

In fact, it's possible that the opposite may be true. Jochen Gartz reports that in P. cubenisis, "the spontaneous bluing is a sign of a significant decomposition of the alkaloids".(1) So the blue may be the result of the destruction of psilocin...meaning more blue, less potent.

More likely is that the bluing has little to do with the overall content of psilocin or psilocybin. Several papers address this possibility.(2,3,4) It is known that several mushrooms which do not contain any psilocybin or psilocin, have a bluing reaction. It is also known that some mushrooms that do contain psilocybin and psilocin do not bruise at all.

At this point, the true cause of bluing, and therefore its relationship with the potency of any particular mushroom, is unknown.

Bluing doesn't usually have anything to do with contamination. If one is familiar with the bluing of mushrooms, the natural bluing reaction can generally be differentiated from any mold or mildew which might grow on mushrooms.

References

(sorry, they're all in german)

1. GARTZ J., 1989- Bildung und Verteilung der Indolalkaloide in Fruchtk?rpern, Myzelien und Sklerotien von Psilocybe cubensis. Beitr?ge z. Kenntnis der Pilze Mitteleuropas 5: 167-174.

2. GARTZ J., 1991- Quantitative Bestimmung der Indolderivate von Psilocybe semilanceata (Fr.) Kumm. Biochem. Physiol. Pflanzen 181: 113-128.

3. GARTZ J., 1987- Variation der Alkaloidmengen in Fruchtk?rpern von Inocybe aeruginascens. Planta Med. 48: 539-541.

4. GARTZ J., 1989- Analyse der Indolderivate in Fruchtk?rpern und Myzelien von Panaeolus subalteatus (Berk. & Br.) Sacc. Biochem. Physiol. Pflanzen 184: 171-178.



***************************************

So, until it is the debate can moth ball IMO, though the Gartz source is of interest as it relates to P.cubensis.

The thread is about BRF being a waste of time. This colour subject is a side-show.

Shirley, by your logic all new folks have to start out on PF cakes. LMAO. More trouble than its worth in Oz, as kerr and ball mason shoulderless jars don't exist. Making aluminium foil lids on glasses is tedious. Far easier to load up grain into 1lt fowler food preserving jars. For newbie Aussies, they best start out on grain at the jump and make their own syringes too to avoid the post Sep 11th customs/AQIS tighter postage world. Not that all Aussies are newbies btw, many rural Australians will work in A.bisporus farms as a $ide spin off the dairy industry. Oz is after all a more rural producing nation than the UK miss Shirley.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708281 - 07/12/03 10:55 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

This thing is getting stupid. You yourself cite an article that says that more bluing doesn?t mean more potent....

OK, why not settle this once for all:
From what I?ve seen you should be able to grow batches of cubensis using an isolate using brf and millet as substrate. For the ease of comparison I?d suggest doing PF cakes with both of them. Then send the mushrooms to someone who can do chromatographic analysis.
Or, look into http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/The_Mushroom_Entheogen,_The_Measure_of_the_Mushroom_by_C.B._Gold.16311.shtml .

Then we will see if and how big the difference is.

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InvisibleStarter
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1708343 - 07/12/03 11:28 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

The article is very much a devils advocate. It says it's unknown.

"At this point, the true cause of bluing, and therefore its relationship with the potency of any particular mushroom, is unknown."

Not that it's the focus of this threads inaugural question. So from that, I agree Anno it is getting stupid to continue a debate on what is an unknown. I'm happy to moth ball it until there is the conclusive data.

As for chromatography has anyone in the shroomery put the investment down in bux/time towards this? Short of such an investment, it appears most folks will go with what works best for them and I've already said what I find better with simple local feedback. I'd guess most people would do the same. Good link. :smile: Thanks. Nite. 


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Re: BRF(brown rice flower), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708523 - 07/12/03 01:23 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

This is no different to the Canna-forum threads that pull the wings off Dr Watson, Rosethal and Cervantez. The three Canna-gods. The howls of indignation. Seen this shit before. Too funny.





while i certainly have respect for what PF has done for the community/hobby, i don't consider him a "god". his website claimed that PES hawaiin and golden teacher were the same strain, something that's obviously not true.


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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1708533 - 07/12/03 01:28 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

>Or is it all hot air and ego at stake?

You disqualify yourself as someone who can be taken seriously with comments like this.





indeed.



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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Starter]
    #1708738 - 07/12/03 02:49 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

ATWAR, is that the reason for your name, the "shock & awe" big red shiny buttons boy that gets easily pressed?




Not quite.

Quote:

So far the BRF argument isn't doing too well in this thread. Is that your motives ATWAR with your "you won't go far" spin?




Once again, I would have to disagree. Let me clarify. You appear to have much hostility directed towards anyone that tries to append information to this thread that is contrary to what you believe. Then you make personal attacks on Anno and others regarding their knowledge on the subject. It is attitudes like this that make people less willing to help you because they have no need to hear your slander.


Quote:

Oh, I'm just shaking matey LMAO.




Ok....

Quote:

I have no need to be a nepotistic sycophant for I have no vested interests and a cyber image is not my goal. Can you speak the same?




No, I cannot. I myself would like to present myself in a respectful manner, no difference if I was speaking in real life or in a forum. While it is not my intent to be a favorite, I would like others to respect me as well as I do them. It is my opinion that when one gets rude and directs inappropriate comments towards others, one loses the respect of that individual.

Quote:

No wonder the side line circus of the colour argument LOL, as it ducks conveniently away from the real issue of the threads question.




I fail to see how this is off topic and "sideline" as you say. Your posts about brown rice being lower in tryptamines was evidence enough (for me) that it (millet that is) would be a better substrate for the production of psilocin and psilocybin. The differences in the bluing reaction between fruits of the two are very much related to this discussion.

Now, how can you argue that the bluing reaction is a direct relation to potency, when the primary alkaloids are the same between P. Cubensis, and the other active species listed? If the bluing reaction is not a direct relation to potency in species other than P. Cubensis, how does it become an indicator in Cubensis? If oxidation of psilocin causes this reaction, how does it relate to the other compounds?


Edit: ^ above italics


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Edited by ATWAR (07/13/03 02:56 AM)

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InvisibleAinasko
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: ATWAR]
    #1708898 - 07/12/03 03:53 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Some people just need proof in writing. Here it is.

Here is a better view of the same text.

I hope this brings this discussion to a close.


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OfflineFallenShroom
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1708910 - 07/12/03 03:57 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Shit its in themother fuckn bible so now it cant be a lie .....


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OfflineFallenShroom
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: FallenShroom]
    #1708959 - 07/12/03 04:10 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Ainasko you should read that bible again you do want to go to heaven ?? lol



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InvisibleAinasko
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: FallenShroom]
    #1709005 - 07/12/03 04:25 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Who am I to argue with Jesus? Pray for me.


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Ainasko is my name backwards. I'm a girl!

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InvisibleBrainFarmer
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1709044 - 07/12/03 04:38 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Some people just need proof in writing. Here it is.

Here is a better view of the same text.

I hope this brings this discussion to a close.






:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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Offlinehyper_dermic
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1709057 - 07/12/03 04:44 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

shit i was gonna add something to this debate
but its kinda pointless now...
Jesus brought the hammer down....
game over.....


[hyp]

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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Ainasko]
    #1709864 - 07/12/03 08:44 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Sure Anno - that applies to OTHER psilocybe mushrooms as I have all ready conceded! But seriously, I have made the point now four times and it keeps getting ignored.
STUDIES BY STIVJE AND DEMEIJER, BIGWOOD AND BEUG DEMONSTRATED FROM ANALYSIS OF PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS THAT THE ONE ALKALOID THAT VARIED THE MOST BETWEEN FRUIT BODIES AND WAS THE MOST VARIABLE WAS THE UNSTABLE PSILOCIN (which is possibly linked to the bluing reaction)
STIVJE AND DEMEIJER 1993 FOUND THAT DIFFERENT SPORES RACES AND A NEARLY IDENTICAL LEVEL OF PSILOCYBIN, BUT CONSIDERABLE VARIATION IN PSILOCIN. THEY CONCLUDED THAT THE POSSIBLE DIFFERENCE IN POTENCY BETWEEN A STRAIN LABELLED MEXICAN AND ONE LABELLED AMAZONIAN WAS DUE TO DIFFERING CONTENTS OF PSILOCIN ALONE.
Hope you have now noted my point.
1. Bluing indicates psilocin
2. the main alkaloid that varies in cubensis according to these two studies and possibily Gartz is psilocin.
3. Psilocybe cubensis - blues more, more potent.


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InvisibleZen Peddler
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1709910 - 07/12/03 09:05 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

At the end of that day Starter has demonstrated that millet has more precursors than Brown Rice, therefore the original point of this thread has been demonstrated - although you could have listened to me from the start and wasted less of your time.
Anyway - believe what you like.


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InvisibleMOTH
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1709936 - 07/12/03 09:12 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Well, at the risk of sounding completely ignorant, What exactly is 'millet?' Where is it found? Can it be used with PF-tek? 

Thanks in advance for answering my silly question...  :nut:
truly,
Shade

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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1710208 - 07/12/03 10:51 PM (20 years, 9 months ago)

I love it. Leave it to bluemeanie.

Quote:

PSILOCIN (which is possibly linked to the bluing reaction)




Now, I couldn?t help but notice the "possible" part of this theory. Is the actual method of the bluing reaction not clear? What I mean is, if psilocin oxidized blue alone, then it would be clear cut. I assume there are other chemicals involved in the reaction that have not been studied enough (or have been left out), is this correct? I do not agree, nor do I disagree that the bluing reaction is the true indicator. I think there are more variables that have not been considered and to say it is a hands down indicator is not logical.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Zen Peddler]
    #1710611 - 07/13/03 01:27 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

>STUDIES BY STIVJE AND DEMEIJER, BIGWOOD AND BEUG
>DEMONSTRATED FROM ANALYSIS OF PSILOCYBE CUBENSIS THAT
>THE ONE ALKALOID THAT VARIED THE MOST BETWEEN FRUIT
>BODIES AND WAS THE MOST VARIABLE WAS THE UNSTABLE
>PSILOCIN

But this is simply not true! The study doesnt say this at all!

Psilocybin varied as well with a factor of up to 4. If you look at the data, you will actually see that the absolute content of psilocybin varied much more than the absolute content in psilocin.

Here is the table:
http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/images/Variation3.jpg

Here is the whole document:
http://jeremybigwood.net/JBsPUBS/JBScientific/VariationOfPsi/


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InvisibleATWAR
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Re: BRF(brown rice flour), A Waste of Time? [Re: Anno]
    #1710737 - 07/13/03 02:33 AM (20 years, 9 months ago)

Particularly interesting:

Quote:

"Psilocin, on the other hand, generally was absent in the first one or two flushes, reached maximum by the fourth flush, and then appeared to start to decline."




Quote:

"In two other strains grown by other sources, we also observed nearly complete absence of psilocin in the first flush."




If oxidation of psilocin is thought to be the main cause of the bluing reaction, its logical the first flush would show virtually no signs of bluing if the chief chemical responsible were absent.


But then it goes on to say this:

Quote:

"In these, we analyzed the caps and stems separately and found that the caps generally contained twice as much psilocybin as the stems, but that the small amount of psilocin present was entirely in the stems. In contrast, our Amazon strain had a trace of psilocin in the cap but not in the stem. The cap and stem contained equal amounts of psilocybin.




Very interesting indeed.


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