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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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World Series of Poker
    #16912466 - 09/26/12 12:29 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

There is a main event open to both women and men. It consists of mostly men.

Then there is a ladies event. It consists of 100% women.

There is no men's only event.


Apparently having a penis is an advantage when thought is required. If there is another possible conclusion, I would like to hear it.


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16912497 - 09/26/12 12:38 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
There is a main event open to both women and men. It consists of mostly men.

Then there is a ladies event. It consists of 100% women.

There is no men's only event.


Apparently having a penis is an advantage when thought is required. If there is another possible conclusion, I would like to hear it.




Or maybe interest in poker is found mostly in men (or predilections towards risky behavior, etc.).  Then, even if the ability for rational thought is evenly distributed among the two sexes, we would expect to see a larger pool of men interested in the event, and therefore the number of top-flight competitors would also be greater from among the men.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16912555 - 09/26/12 12:53 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Do you see chess as risky behavior? There are similar gender biases there.

In billiards a man's strength is not an advantage. Once again, similar gender biases.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16912582 - 09/26/12 01:00 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

As Asians have consistently higher scores in math, perhaps we should have separate divisions for the various races...

Those with a higher IQ might handicap the less cerebral opponents. Let's make sure the playing field is exactly even. Competition is all about 100% being 'fair'.

Or maybe the ladies should suck it up and stop living up to stereotypes while simultaneously whining about unequal pay.


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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16912600 - 09/26/12 01:05 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Do you see chess as risky behavior? There are similar gender biases there.

In billiards a man's strength is not an advantage. Once again, similar gender biases.




I did not mention predilections for risky behavior as the only possible alternative hypothesis here - it could simply be that poker, chess, etc. are not activities that women in general find as enjoyable as men do, which could be due to any number of reasons.  I'm not putting these forward as certainties; I'm only trying to point out that the evidence for your hypothesis is incredibly weak and explainable by a wide variety of sociological factors that have nothing to do with innate rational ability.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Or maybe the ladies should suck it up and stop living up to stereotypes while simultaneously whining about unequal pay.




Well that was a gigantic logical leap.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16912620 - 09/26/12 01:13 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I did not mention predilections for risky behavior as the only possible alternative hypothesis here - it could simply be that poker, chess, etc. are not activities that women in general find as enjoyable as men do,



So what? There are fewer left-handed and buck-toothed players. Do they require separate divisions? What if there was a black's only tournament because 'they' are not as well equipped for poker?

Quote:

Well that was a gigantic logical leap.



I am able to do such mental quantum jumps. Do you need it step-by-step?


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Edited by OrgoneConclusion (09/26/12 01:28 AM)

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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16912644 - 09/26/12 01:25 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

I did not mention predilections for risky behavior as the only possible alternative hypothesis here - it could simply be that poker, chess, etc. are not activities that women in general find as enjoyable as men do,



So what? There are fewer left-handed and buck-toothed players. Do they require separate divisions? What if there was a black's only tournament becuase 'they' are not as well equipped for poker?




The fact that a woman's tournament has been organized has absolutely no evidentiary value in terms of innate intelligence here, any more than the existence of a left-handed tournament would say anything about the skills of left-handed players.  All that the existence of a women's tournament implies is that women find it beneficial to split themselves off - you need an additional step to show that that benefit must be in terms of level of competition.  That women find it beneficial to split off could just as easily be explained by a hostile social environment at poker tournaments towards women as it could be by a difference in rational thinking ability (and, in fact, that hypothesis would have a lot of explanatory power as to why so few women show up at the main event as well).

Quote:

Quote:

Well that was a gigantic logical leap.



I am able to do such mental quantum jumps. Do you need it step-by-step?




That would actually be quite beneficial for this conversation, yes.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16912653 - 09/26/12 01:30 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

That women find it beneficial to split off could just as easily be explained by a hostile social environment at poker tournaments towards women




Then we should also have a socially inept men's division. No alpha or bravo males need apply. How far should we go to appease everyone?


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16912655 - 09/26/12 01:32 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

That would actually be quite beneficial for this conversation, yes.




Nah, there is only one PSP forum. There are those here that can keep up with me. It would be insulting to break it down for the slower among us. I am all about the equal oppotunity.


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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16912656 - 09/26/12 01:33 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

That women find it beneficial to split off could just as easily be explained by a hostile social environment at poker tournaments towards women




Then we should also have a socially inept men's division. No alpha or bravo males need apply. How far should we go to appease everyone?




I'm arguing about whether or not your conclusion that women are worse at rational thinking is correct or not.  You keep going off on irrelevant tangents.


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16912658 - 09/26/12 01:33 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

That would actually be quite beneficial for this conversation, yes.




Nah, there is only one PSP forum. There are those here that can keep up with me. It would be insulting to break it down for the slower among us. I am all about the equal oppotunity.




Well then I'll have to satisfy myself with ticking off the logical fallacies I'm assuming your making in my head then.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16912741 - 09/26/12 02:17 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You keep going off on irrelevant tangents



Isn't that redundant? (That is a rhetorical question.)

Quote:

I'm arguing about whether or not your conclusion that women are worse at rational thinking is correct or not.



Is it really my conclusion? It is women that demanded this separate division in a field of endeavor in which gender has no apparent advantage.

42% of U.S. women believe that houses can be haunted versus 31% of U.S. men; it's 34% vs. 22% in Canada, and 44% vs. 29% in Britain. Differences in belief between men and women in Canada and Great Britain are quite pronounced when it comes to astrology and the ability to communicate with the dead; women in both countries are about twice as likely as men to hold those beliefs. American women are more likely than men to believe in astrology and communication with the dead, but by a much smaller margin than in the other two countries.

Yes, females are very rational. :rolleyes:


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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16912787 - 09/26/12 02:41 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

You keep going off on irrelevant tangents



Isn't that redundant? (That is a rhetorical question.)




No, relevant tangents exist.  For instance, pointing out that someone's gone off on an irrelevant tangent is a relevant tangent.

Quote:

Quote:

I'm arguing about whether or not your conclusion that women are worse at rational thinking is correct or not.



Is it really my conclusion? It is women that demanded this separate division in a field of endeavor in which gender has no apparent advantage.




Simply reiterating your unsupported line of reasoning does not actually prove your case.

You still haven't presented any evidence that this separate division was created to resolve a competitive balance issue, much less present evidence that any proposed competitive balance issues are linked to actual distributions of rational ability in the sexes as a whole.

Quote:

42% of U.S. women believe that houses can be haunted versus 31% of U.S. men; it's 34% vs. 22% in Canada, and 44% vs. 29% in Britain. Differences in belief between men and women in Canada and Great Britain are quite pronounced when it comes to astrology and the ability to communicate with the dead; women in both countries are about twice as likely as men to hold those beliefs. American women are more likely than men to believe in astrology and communication with the dead, but by a much smaller margin than in the other two countries.

Yes, females are very rational. :rolleyes:




And men are the founders of just about ever religion ever.  Let's not cherry-pick our data here.  I want to see some compelling evidence that belief/non-belief in supernatural entities is for some reason a prime indicator of general rationality when we have bookoos of well-studied and -tested IQ tests floating around in the world of psychology.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16912929 - 09/26/12 04:17 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

No, relevant tangents exist.  For instance, pointing out that someone's (sp) gone off on an irrelevant tangent is a relevant tangent.



I am one of the privileged few that has a knowledge of the English language and knows how to use a dictionary.

Merriam -Webster

2 : diverging from an original purpose or course : irrelevant <tangent remarks>


Quote:

Simply reiterating your unsupported line of reasoning does not actually prove your case.



I am invoking the law of repetition which is a standard debate tactic.

Quote:

You still haven't presented any evidence that this separate division was created to resolve a competitive balance issue, much less present evidence that any proposed competitive balance issues are linked to actual distributions of rational ability in the sexes as a whole.




It certainly does not exist because women have breasts and (most) men don't so it is not about physical traits - and yet there are no other divisions such as for seniors or for race. Now why could that be? Hmmm - could it be mental inequality? Point of fact: there are a few women champions, but by-and-large women could NOT successfully compete; hence they demanded the special poker olympics - basically giving up. Same with backgammon. Something to do with the dice being too heavy I suppose.

Quote:

Let's not cherry-pick our data here.



Cherry pick? Those are giant swaths of irrational belief across several fields. As to men founding religions that is about power and control. They are the scammers not the scammees.


“I will eat canned tuna for a year to make it to the Readers Studio!”

— Val Sherill, Kentucky


The Reader's Studio is a $400 for three days scam seminar on tarot. Restricting dietary pleasure for a year to make others rich on a fantasy quest is the height of illogicity.


These type of seminars along with psychic fairs are generally dominated by women.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16913411 - 09/26/12 07:43 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
There is a main event open to both women and men. It consists of mostly men.

Then there is a ladies event. It consists of 100% women.

There is no men's only event.


Apparently having a penis is an advantage when thought is required. If there is another possible conclusion, I would like to hear it.




The conclusion is obviously that women have men by the balls in this as in all things.  They won.  Game over.

Now, the end result of the tournie may seem to favor men but remember there is always a greedy bitch (well usually) on the rail ready to "cash" with just cheering under her belt.


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Anxiety is what you make it.

Edited by LunarEclipse (09/26/12 07:44 AM)

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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16913652 - 09/26/12 08:57 AM (11 years, 6 months ago)

Or maybe the ladies should suck it up and stop living up to stereotypes while simultaneously whining about unequal pay.

Back when I used to live a third of my life in the corporate world, I would always shake my head when I saw a woman strutting around the office in high heel shoes and an ultra-short dress. I could never quite take someone in either clown shoes or high heels seriously. So it never seemed odd that woman get paid less for the same job (or job title, to be more precise).

Although I have known some extremely competent women who could run circles not only around me, but most men, the majority of them were less than impressive. At least in my field of work which was very technical.

I remember working in one team where there were about a dozen guys and two women. The women were ALWAYS not feeling well and going home early, or calling in sick, or whatever. It was always something with them. The rest of us had to take up the slack, of course.

We couldn't have a long brainstorming session because just as the team got on a roll, one of the women needed to take a break for something or other. And they dragged around a 20# sack of shit called a purse everywhere they went.

But once again, I don't think this is an inherent limitation in women. It's a function of our culture.

One of my closest friends before she moved away was Mary, a microbiologist. Whenever anyone asked her what her PhD was in, she would answer, "Well, the first one was chemistry, the second one was microbiology". I always got a kick out of that. I respect her personally and professionally more than I do most men I've ever met. But then she didn't wear high heel shoes at work or carry around a 20# purse full of makeup either. And she wasn't one for social conformity either.

I miss her. I think I'll send her an email right after I post this.


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Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #16913767 - 09/26/12 09:35 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Now, the end result of the tournie may seem to favor men but remember there is always a greedy bitch (well usually) on the rail ready to "cash" with just cheering under her belt.




True. When a guy wins he must give 32% to the state and 50% to his woman. Hardly worth the risk of capital.


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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: Diploid]
    #16913775 - 09/26/12 09:37 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

One of my closest friends before she moved away was Mary, a microbiologist. Whenever anyone asked her what her PhD was in, she would answer, "Well, the first one was chemistry, the second one was microbiology". I always got a kick out of that. I respect her personally and professionally more than I do most men I've ever met. But then she didn't wear high heel shoes at work or carry around a 20# purse full of makeup either. And she wasn't one for social conformity either.

I miss her. I think I'll send her an email right after I post this.





But then again, you never fantasized about banging her, did you?


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #16917890 - 09/26/12 10:51 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

No, relevant tangents exist.  For instance, pointing out that someone's (sp) gone off on an irrelevant tangent is a relevant tangent.



I am one of the privileged few that has a knowledge of the English language and knows how to use a dictionary.

Merriam -Webster

2 : diverging from an original purpose or course : irrelevant <tangent remarks>





The static definitions found in the dictionary are ill-suited to the vagaries of actual word usage.

Quote:

Quote:

Simply reiterating your unsupported line of reasoning does not actually prove your case.



I am invoking the law of repetition which is a standard debate tactic.




Also a tactic that frequently does nothing to prove the user's point.

Quote:

It certainly does not exist because women have breasts and (most) men don't so it is not about physical traits - and yet there are no other divisions such as for seniors or for race. Now why could that be? Hmmm - could it be mental inequality?




You've yet to present any evidence at all that my hypothesis that women simply don't like poker, are treated poorly by male poker players, etc. is actually incorrect.

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Apparently having a penis is an advantage when thought is required. If there is another possible conclusion, I would like to hear it.




Did you actually want to discuss this issue or was it (at it seems) a bait-and-switch for an attack on women's role in the workplace?



Here's a positive argument from me: it's pretty conclusive that (at least in Western cultures) men have more innate mathematical ability than women, and are better at spacial manipulation in their heads.  I don't think these results are very applicable to poker because, even though it is a game for which proper play heavily relies on mathematical reasoning, the math involved is not extremely difficult (and can in fact be memorized and internalized fairly easily), and a large part (I would say the vast majority) of the skill involved in playing the game has to do with reading facial cues, acting (bluffing), "getting in the opponent's head", having discipline, etc.  Some of these skills involve rational thinking.  Some do not.  Poker is a rather poor test of innate rational ability.

On the other hand, interest in gambling and competition is highly correlated with testosterone levels - which is also correlated with being a man.  Which would therefore cause more men to be interested in poker, creating a much larger pool to draw high-quality players from.  So there you go.  Bingo.

Quote:

Point of fact: there are a few women champions, but by-and-large women could NOT successfully compete; hence they demanded the special poker olympics - basically giving up.




Whether or not there are few women champions seems to me to be a poor test.  The percentage of women players who become champions would be a much more telling number.

You still haven't provided any evidence that your theory of why women created a separate tournament is true, only suspicions.

Quote:

Quote:

Let's not cherry-pick our data here.



Cherry pick? Those are giant swaths of irrational belief across several fields.




Giant swathes of beliefs?  You didn't list any percentages for astrology and the like - are these common beliefs or are we talking about the respective male/women distributions of very small segments of society?  As for the haunted house thing, a significant amount of Americans will say that they believe in UFO's when asked by pollsters, yet I've never met anyone in real life who has any sort of serious belief in them.  These responses you are referencing aren't tests of rational ability - the data here are artifacts created by the way people respond to polls.  As for "several fields", it seems to me that you're only talking about belief in the paranormal.  Is "paranormal reasoning" some commonly-used domain of intelligence?

The IQ tests I mentioned are peer-reviewed and correlated with actual testable measures of rational ability.  You might be pleasantly surprised if you actually looked into research that's been done.

Quote:

As to men founding religions that is about power and control. They are the scammers not the scammees.




I have every reason to believe the Pope, et al are very sincere in their belief in God - they say so, and spend a considerable amount of time and effort worshipping God.  The same holds true for Muhammed, etc.  Do you have any evidence these beliefs are not sincere?

Quote:

“I will eat canned tuna for a year to make it to the Readers Studio!”

— Val Sherill, Kentucky


The Reader's Studio is a $400 for three days scam seminar on tarot. Restricting dietary pleasure for a year to make others rich on a fantasy quest is the height of illogicity.


These type of seminars along with psychic fairs are generally dominated by women.




Oh look, men paying ridiculous amounts of money for voodoo instruction:

http://www.mattathiasschwartz.com/the-golden-touch/


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Offlinesonamdrukpa
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: Diploid]
    #16917978 - 09/26/12 11:13 PM (11 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Diploid said:
I remember working in one team where there were about a dozen guys and two women. The women were ALWAYS not feeling well and going home early, or calling in sick, or whatever. It was always something with them. The rest of us had to take up the slack, of course.

We couldn't have a long brainstorming session because just as the team got on a roll, one of the women needed to take a break for something or other. And they dragged around a 20# sack of shit called a purse everywhere they went.




This.  Most women I've met can't hold a candle to your average man when it comes to mental discipline and toughness.  It drives me effing crazy, because lacking it also tends to correspond with not recognizing it as well as not having any idea why it's beneficial or why the lack of it can cause frustration for others.

In a similar vein, I also suspect this is a large part of why college athletes are paid better in the professional field despite lower SAT scores, grades, and percentage of STEM-related degrees.

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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: World Series of Poker [Re: sonamdrukpa]
    #16919232 - 09/27/12 07:55 AM (11 years, 5 months ago)

You men can whine all you want but until there is a Men's Only Poker Tournie, YOU LOST the war.


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