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InvisibleZippoZM
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Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world?
    #1689179 - 07/06/03 01:30 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

now i have to say that what i have to say is what i have come to realize many many times in many diferent perspectives.
the human race as a whole is plundering almost every resource that there is on this earth. within an estimated 150 years the freshwater table of the united states will have gone dry. the powerful raging colorado river which once cut through mountains is now just a slight trickle. acres and acres of land are being hoplessly devoured by projects, and buildings that years later go dormant. with a dwindling supply of naturla gas and petrolum we are making less efficient vehicles instead of gas free vehicles.
WE ARE SLOWLY KILLING THIS EARTH!
this is the only place we have to live and unless we begin to respect it mankind as a whole will be doomed.
I strongly believe that the majority of this destruction is the result of capitalism. people are plundering our world for a buck, a piece of paper, a number in a bank. why do we feel the need to do this to ourselves???? why are we so greedy that we cannot see our own future. does anyone else see this?
i personally have decided to be concious of this and to respect the world. unfortunately in todays world living the simple life of living off the land and with nature is no longer an option. does anyone else feel this way?


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PEACE

:mushroom2:zippoz:mushroom2:



"in times of widespread chaos and confusion, it has been the duty of more advanced human beings - artists, scientists, clowns, and philosophers - to create order. In such times as ours however, when there is too much order, too much m management, too much programming and control, it becomes the duty of superior men and women and women to fling their favorite monkey wrenches into the machinery. To relieve the repression of the human spirit, they must sow doubt and disruption"

"People do it every day, they talk to themselves ... they see themselves as they'd like to be, they don't have the courage you have, to just run with it."


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Offlinemntlfngrs
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1689285 - 07/06/03 02:38 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Cars would have been invented eventualy regardless of capitalism. Populations would still increase and wood would still be cut. Capitolism has created other types of building materials to replace wood, and has created drugs that kill disease and prolong life. Capitolism has mad it possible to explore space to the extent that we have and that may be our only hope for the future. Capitolism is more accountable to the consumer than other economic modles and therefor it is on the consumer to demand responsible capitolism.
I don't think capitolism is to blame.


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Be all and you'll be to end all


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1689387 - 07/06/03 03:48 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

It's a fundamental premise of capitalism that you assume infinite resources. You don't maximise short-term profit by leaving 20 acres of forest for the future - you chop the lot down to maximise your profit and prevent anyone else from getting that profit. You maximise profit by dumping your pollution straight into the sea. It's simply how it works. You don't go to the boss of a chemical corporation and say "Hey, I just stopped our polluting and saved the planet for our children..it only cost us 20 million!!". You'd be fired on the spot.

The goals of capitalism and the human race are mutually exclusive. It's like we've handed control of the earth over to a totally alien species intent on destroying it for nothing other than short-term profit.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRhizoid
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1689436 - 07/06/03 04:28 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Do you think profit and trade are always bad, or only when there are hidden costs (like pollution) that are not taken into account?


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Rhizoid]
    #1689530 - 07/06/03 05:24 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

"Profit and trade" are not bad, they are simply amoral.

In a system that is based around money, good and bad only come into play if being 'good' will cost you money, or being 'bad' carries a monetary penalty.

I believe that if Ralph Nader became president, he would immediately run our economy into the ground, ( yes, even quicker than Bush did ) because our new environmentally conscious, super-regulated corporations would be unable to compete with the rest of the world, especially countries like Mexico that don't give a damn.
I know it's already that way, the Green Party would just speed up the process.

A 'free market' is only free until someone excercises their freedom to control it. In the conservative / libertarian utopia, ambitious, amoral corporations would quickly take over the government's role as oppressor of the masses, and probably do a much more efficient job of it.

And as for socialism, well, some animals are more equal than others.

What's the answer? I don't think there is one. Some Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door a few days ago saying how only the love of Christ could save our rainforests. I guess, in 2003, that's the best we can do? So I'm not optimistic.

Human society as we know it is not sustainable, it is blowing up in slow motion chaos and seems stable only because our lives are so short. 'All this' is either a transition to something better or a bubble that will pop catastrophically, either way it will all be over in the blink of an eye, geologically speaking. The planet will recover, it's been through worse.





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OfflinePhred
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1689601 - 07/06/03 06:42 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

zippoz writes:

the human race as a whole is plundering almost every resource that there is on this earth.

What is your definition of the word "plunder"? The human race is certainly using resources found on the planet. But plundering?

I strongly believe that the majority of this destruction is the result of capitalism.

It is an incontestable fact that the worst examples of pollution and other environmental destruction are to be found in totalitarian countries, not in the semi-capitalist ones. Your beef is actually not with Capitalism, but with advancing technology and population growth.

people are plundering our world for a buck, a piece of paper, a number in a bank.

All of the above are merely media of exchange. Money is nothing more than concretized productive human effort -- i.e. goods and services. People have the right to produce and the right to keep what they produce. In fact, unless they produce (or receive stuff from others who do), they die.

why do we feel the need to do this to ourselves????

Because most of us wish to survive and to assist our families in surviving.

unfortunately in todays world living the simple life of living off the land and with nature is no longer an option.

Billions of people in the world do that every day. If you would prefer to live off the land, there are farms for sale in many countries. There are also plots of forest and scrubland for sale. In some countries, you don't even need to buy the land -- just head off into the jungle and start hunting and gathering.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1689604 - 07/06/03 06:47 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Xibalba writes:

A 'free market' is only free until someone excercises their freedom to control it. In the conservative / libertarian utopia, ambitious, amoral corporations would quickly take over the government's role as oppressor of the masses, and probably do a much more efficient job of it.

How would they "oppress the masses"? In a Laissez-faire Capitalist society, no trade takes place by force; all exchanges are agreed upon by the parties involved or there is no exhange. Please explain to us how this constitutes oppression. Thank you.

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1689674 - 07/06/03 09:46 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

unfortunately in todays world living the simple life of living off the land and with nature is no longer an option. does anyone else feel this way?

Never a truer word said. With the vast majority of land bought up by the rich years ago and africa forced to grow crops to feed the first world there is little or no possibility of opting out to grow your own food.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1689708 - 07/06/03 10:22 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

How badly are we hurting the planet?
Well, we know for certain that the planet has been through worse. Asteroids, volcanoes, and ice ages have destroyed millions of species, spewed toxins into the air, and decimated ecosystems.
Life just mutated, and kept going, which is precisely what will happen when we're finished with it.

Humans will go extinct at some point, maybe in a few hundred years, but most likely they've got thousands of years to go, even at the current rate.

Humans and technology are just as natural as anything else on the planet. To think that we are somehow above other forms of life is extremely arrogant, we're just playing out our time on earth, building up our civilisation and making neat things until it is eventually wiped ou


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Phluck]
    #1689766 - 07/06/03 11:09 AM (13 years, 4 months ago)

A huge world-wide catastrophe will be quite the learning experience. Maybe the only hope we have as a species.

The way things are run now is undeniably grade A bullshit.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ZippoZ]
    #1689830 - 07/06/03 12:10 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Nobody seems to care as long as they get rich and powerful while they are here.


--------------------

"What business is it of yours what I do, read, buy, see, say, think, who I fuck, what I take into my body - as long as I do not harm another human being on this planet?" - Bill Hicks


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: barfightlard]
    #1689844 - 07/06/03 12:23 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

That's capitalism folks!


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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Anonymous

Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1690015 - 07/06/03 02:03 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

no, that's greed.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ]
    #1690019 - 07/06/03 02:04 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism relies on greed, whereas communism attempts to abolish it.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1690024 - 07/06/03 02:05 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

capitalism does not rely on greed any more than freedom of speech relies on foul language.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: ]
    #1690047 - 07/06/03 02:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Capitalism relies on competition, and what are people competing for? Money. Corporations compete in the rat race to get ahead and make more money than their competitors. Hence, capitalism relies on greed.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: silversoul7]
    #1690075 - 07/06/03 02:34 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

i think it'd be more accurate to say that greed relies on capitalism.

Capitalism relies on competition, and what are people competing for?

so far so good. it is true that capitalism as we know it would not exist if people did not compete. they do compete, and capitalism allows them the freedom to.

this next part though...

Corporations compete in the rat race to get ahead and make more money than their competitors. Hence, capitalism relies on greed.

makes the jump from competition to greed without much logical footing. why is competition inherently greedy? let's say some guy down the street is making shitty widgets or selling his widgets for more money than i woud if were making them. how is it greedy for me to go into the widget business with the intent of making good, cheap widgets for people? it's competition, but it isn't greed.

furthermore, the CEO of a corporation does not own the company. the stockholders do. in competing with other companies and trying to make money for his company, he is not just looking out for his own interests. more importantly, he is looking out for the interests of many investors, who may have put money away in the company to pay for things like retirement and college tuition for their children.


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InvisibleXibalba
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Phred]
    #1690150 - 07/06/03 03:16 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
no trade takes place by force; all exchanges are agreed upon by the parties involved or there is no exhange. Please explain to us how this constitutes oppression.
pinky




Because it is not an exchange between equals. The kind of "agreement" I have in mind is a multi-billion-dollar international corporation handing a contract to some guy who's trying to earn his next meal... sign here on the dotted line and waive all your rights away or you're fired. Not only are you fired, you're blacklisted with all the other companies in our cartel, which is all of them, so good luck finding work again. Go ahead and start your own company, we'll just lower our prices and run you out of business...

Sure, it's still a choice, but since money and power tend to concentrate, ( the poor go deeper into debt, and the rich live off the interest... big companies eat little companies and get bigger...) it becomes more and more a choice between doing anything "They" tell you to do, or doing without. Piss in this cup. Put this camera in your house and don't turn it off. Stop buying goods from this list of people. Give money to this candidate. You'll be treated well, just keep consuming our products. Take the mark of the beast, or starve. Do we have an agreement?


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Xibalba]
    #1690199 - 07/06/03 03:36 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Nice post.  :thumbup:


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineGrav
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Re: Does anyone else realise how were ruining the world? [Re: Xlea321]
    #1690232 - 07/06/03 03:55 PM (13 years, 4 months ago)

Let me guess... Companies should have that freedom or else THEY are being oppressed and that wouldn't be fair!


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