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OfflineDrunk3n Duck
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soaking rye berries
    #16852382 - 09/15/12 04:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I got a hold of 5lb of organic rye berries and was wondering if they needed to be soaked for 12 hours ahead of time or not. This is because i see multiple teks saying to just add rye and water to a jar and u r good to go but i wasn't sure if the rye used was already soaked or not. the other thing i was wondering is about how many jars will 5lb get me.


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Offlineskullhuman
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Drunk3n Duck] * 1
    #16852390 - 09/15/12 04:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Do the soak.  It helps to germinate bacterial endospores naturally present in rye, which may otherwise survive the pcing process.

5 lbs? You might get somewhere around 20 jars worth from that.


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Offlinetwistedty
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Drunk3n Duck]
    #16852393 - 09/15/12 04:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

you wont get many jars from it. but soaking is preffered

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OfflineIamYou
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: skullhuman]
    #16852407 - 09/15/12 04:22 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

skullhuman said:
Do the soak.  It helps to germinate bacterial endospores naturally present in rye, which may otherwise survive the pcing process.




^what he said...

not to mention it really helps from keeping the berries from bursting during the simmer/boil(if you're doing that).

Edit: also, i usually soak mine longer than 12 hours.  usually a little short of 24...


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“Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego.”
- You


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Edited by IamYou (09/15/12 04:24 PM)

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: IamYou]
    #16853063 - 09/15/12 06:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

:bliss:
No offense guys, but please stop spreading this information. :plur:

Here's some good points on this...

Quote:

JostVanDyke said:
Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

tryptamine83 said:
The point of soaking any grain is to give the bacterial endospores time to germinate so that they may be killed with a PC.  Endospores which have not had time and environment to germinate will survive PC'ing everytime.  Years ago I found all this out the hard way as I was just boiling my popcorn to get moisture content right and loading the jars right away.  Bacterial splotch on every single jar.  I started doing a 3 day soak after boiling, being sure to pour into strainers and rinse the bacterial slime which had germinated off every time.  Then after rinse, put back into cleaned pot with clean water.  Repeat for 3 days, on 3'rd day after rinse, drain for 30 mins (picking up strainer and shaking for 5 mins or so at end) then loading jars.  90_95 % success rate or higher from then on.





Any soak longer than 24 hours and you're going to have more endospores than you started out with. Endospore-forming bacteria begin to form new endospores within an hour of germination. In addition, popcorn is the worst possible choice for spawn because it contains so many endospore-forming bacteria.

The main function of the soak is to hydrate the grains.  While doing this, you also hydrate and soften the endospores, making them easier to kill in the pressure cooker.  I also used to buy into the necessity of 'germinating' the endospores, but I no longer feel that's the best course of action.  A four hour soak in hot water is plenty.  After four hours, not many endospores have germinated, but they're killed in the PC nonetheless.  Above 24 hours, you've flooded your soak water and grains with more endospores than you started with, actually increasing your chances of failure.
RR





well, rr pretty much says that the endospores arent a problem really in this post he also says to only soak grains for around 4 hours in hot water. not sure if he changed his mind on this or not.




:peace:


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Offlineredrum187
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Primal Call]
    #16853200 - 09/15/12 07:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I get right at 11-12 quart jars 2/3 full with 5 lbs of rye berries... your mileage may vary

And i would go with the soak, its more likely you'll get your moisture content right that way


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InvisibleNewfoundFreedom
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: redrum187]
    #16853222 - 09/15/12 07:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I use RogerRabbit's grain preparation method. The reason you soak them is to slowly hydrate the grains so they don't burst when boiling and pressure cooking them.

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Primal Call]
    #16853283 - 09/15/12 07:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I've read endospores tend to form in response to a dwindling moisture supply, which isn't exactly a bucket of water. There may be other factors involved but I think that if the seed is properly hydrated and subjected to 1.5 hours at a solid 250F in quart jars endospores will die like everything else.


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rahz

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Invisiblepablokabute
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Rahz]
    #16853317 - 09/15/12 08:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

4 hour soak is more than enough, dont forget to briefly boil em so they steam dry before packing them man.. youre good to go.


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: pablokabute]
    #16853381 - 09/15/12 08:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

People can get good results with a varieity of times, whether it's a 4 hr soak/simmer or 48 hours no simmer. It's difficult for me to buy into the idea/myth that endospores from long soaks represent a potential problem using the cook time/temp I cited.


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rahz

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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: pablokabute]
    #16853404 - 09/15/12 08:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I soak my rye grains and wbs in a 50% water 50% coffee + 1 tablespoon powder gypsum solution for 24 hours, but I have let them soak for 48 hours and no problems arose. Then simmer them until I see a grain or 2 burst. While water is still boiling, pour them into a strainer and shake them until the steam stops flowing off heavily. Load into jars, PC 90mins @ 15psi.

There is a significant difference in mycelium growth when you use some coffee.

Here are my 5 day old multi spore inoculated jars done with this method, strains are PESH, and Thai lipa yai. Last pic is Thai, but is much older, I've just been to lazy to use it as spawn, it's over consolidated now will have to make a rye cake with it now. It's solid.



(these jars are 33%wbs 33%rye 33%wheat, for no specific reason, I just felt like trying it)


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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Edited by Tmethyl (09/15/12 08:29 PM)

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Rahz]
    #16853410 - 09/15/12 08:28 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

From a Wikipedia article on the autoclave: "It is very important to ensure that all of the trapped air is removed from the autoclave before activation, as hot air is a very poor medium for achieving sterility. Steam at 134 °C can achieve in three minutes the same sterility that hot air at 160 °C takes two hours to achieve."

If the grain isn't hydrated enough the same principal will apply and time to sterility will be unknown. Autoclave conditions applied directly to a surface will sterilize in 15-20 minutes.


--------------------
rahz

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Invisiblepenhed
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Rahz]
    #16853543 - 09/15/12 08:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Rahz said:
I've read endospores tend to form in response to a dwindling moisture supply,



this is a good point.....after soak your grain (x hrs) and steam dry it..PC it ASAP.....don't let those dry grains set in your preped jars for long  waiting a pc run....

if you over soak(48) ....you will get fermintation=bacterial bloom=tons new endospores to "kill" which is never 100%...it only weakens enough for strong myc to over come/win the race
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14053216#14053216

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Invisiblepablokabute
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Tmethyl]
    #16853554 - 09/15/12 08:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
I soak my rye grains and wbs in a 50% water 50% coffee + 1 tablespoon powder gypsum solution for 24 hours, but I have let them soak for 48 hours and no problems arose. Then simmer them until I see a grain or 2 burst. While water is still boiling, pour them into a strainer and shake them until the steam stops flowing off heavily. Load into jars, PC 90mins @ 15psi.

There is a significant difference in mycelium growth when you use some coffee.

Here are my 5 day old multi spore inoculated jars done with this method, strains are PESH, and Thai lipa yai. Last pic is Thai, but is much older, I've just been to lazy to use it as spawn, it's over consolidated now will have to make a rye cake with it now. It's solid.



(these jars are 33%wbs 33%rye 33%wheat, for no specific reason, I just felt like trying it)






never ever tried this coffee thing, but will really give it a try for the next coming runs..


--------------------

Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1

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InvisibleRahz
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: penhed]
    #16853631 - 09/15/12 09:21 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

if you over soak(48) ....you will get fermintation=bacterial bloom=tons new endospores to "kill" which is never 100%...it only weakens enough for strong myc to over come/win the race
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14053216#14053216




I've also read the same information cited. Two posts down from that one RR explains that dry conditions aren't the only conditions in which endospores form so it's possible the endospore count in a 24-48 hour soak does in fact go up a substantial amount.

Despite that I've been using a 48 hr soak with no simmer for more than a few years with no issues. As far as the 100% thing, my colonization success rate over the last 12-15 batches or so has been 100%. I'm not suggesting the facts are wrong, just that it doesn't seem to matter in my experience.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love     truth awareness peace I am      I feel      I do     I love  I speak    I see    I know

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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: pablokabute]
    #16853741 - 09/15/12 09:46 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

pablokabute said:
never ever tried this coffee thing, but will really give it a try for the next coming runs..




You will not be disappointed, but when you do this leave a few control jars without coffee, so you can observe the difference, I have measured up to a 25% increase of growth/speed using coffee.

I also pasteurize things like horse dung, in coffee.
And use coffee water instead of regular water when mixing BRF cake mixture. It should, and can be used in every grow. Same with gypsum.


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OfflineDrunk3n Duck
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Tmethyl]
    #16853825 - 09/15/12 10:09 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

thanks everyone for the response and info. I think im going to do it the same as wbs. is the only pain difference the fact that rye is much easier to clean than wbs?


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Invisiblepablokabute
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Tmethyl]
    #16853973 - 09/15/12 10:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Quote:

pablokabute said:
never ever tried this coffee thing, but will really give it a try for the next coming runs..




You will not be disappointed, but when you do this leave a few control jars without coffee, so you can observe the difference, I have measured up to a 25% increase of growth/speed using coffee.

I also pasteurize things like horse dung, in coffee.
And use coffee water instead of regular water when mixing BRF cake mixture. It should, and can be used in every grow. Same with gypsum.





i dont have access to gypsum though..

i just hope it wont be too acidic(from how i understand it, since coffee = acid) for other contams to flourish..

say, you got the exact numbers for this drastic 25% speed increase? go ahead, pull your journal for some numbers mate. hehe..

really interesting, since most especially, i will be doing some action today or tomorrow, whenever i feel like it.. i will be doing 50:50 rye and wbs.


--------------------

Fermented Mushrooms!!
--- https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23378638/fpart/1/vc/1

'The second seal: “All CONTAMINATED things and events are unsatisfactory.”'



"I envy you. You North Americans are very lucky. You are fighting the most important fight of all - you live in THE HEART OF THE BEAST."

--Anonymous Guerilla, or is he..

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Re: soaking rye berries [Re: Drunk3n Duck]
    #16854042 - 09/15/12 11:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Drunk3n Duck said:
thanks everyone for the response and info. I think im going to do it the same as wbs. is the only pain difference the fact that rye is much easier to clean than wbs?




They are both equally dirty or clean depending on your level of cleanliness...

I don't think I know of anyone who prefers WBS after having used rye or wheat berries. :shrug:

If it's a money-thing, and the WBS is cheaper... that might explain it. Do what works for you... tek-wise and money-wise. :plur:


--------------------
New Cultivator's Guide
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