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OfflineGreenvalley
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Can I clone infinitely?
    #16844240 - 09/13/12 11:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So say I get one fruit and clone it, then inoculate 5 jars with an agar wedge then fruit then clone one of the new fruits then inoculate 5 more jars. So on and so forth.

will this work without weakening the mycelium or will I need to start from spore again eventually?

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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Greenvalley]
    #16844268 - 09/13/12 11:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

No, it'll grow weak after so many transfers. You could keep the original culture and use that for a long time.


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OfflineIamYou
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Kizzle]
    #16844287 - 09/13/12 11:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

yeah what he said... im trying to think of what the term for this is...

"_____" degradation


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Kizzle]
    #16844289 - 09/13/12 11:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

so even though its a new fruit it wont make much difference?

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OfflineGoldenArrow
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Kizzle]
    #16844295 - 09/13/12 11:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Good question.

Am I right in thinking that after 'a few' clones/G2G's senesence is the problem, and if so, can fruiting and printing 'reset' the process or is the whole line fucked including the spores from the fruits?

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OfflineSpencerPhillips
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: GoldenArrow]
    #16844313 - 09/13/12 11:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

If this were a case of doing such a task on agar, switching up agar recipes helps the mycelium maintain strength.

Probably why someone else has mentioned it will "weaken it"


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OfflineKizzle
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: GoldenArrow]
    #16844345 - 09/13/12 11:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Senescence. The spores would produce new tounger, healthier strains but the mushrooms themselves have the same genetics as the mycelium it's growing on.


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Kizzle]
    #16844360 - 09/13/12 11:53 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

very cool :themoreyouknow:

tanks for your answers guys.

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OfflinePrimal Call
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Greenvalley]
    #16844380 - 09/13/12 11:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It takes quite a lot of transfers to get senescence, but you can easily avoid it. Make a master grain jar. :super:

Keep it super clean, then you can put 1 grain at a time on agar or use small amounts for G2G, then expand that (5-10x) for spawning.

:plur:


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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Primal Call]
    #16844385 - 09/13/12 11:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Ryath said:
Make a master grain jar. :super:

Keep it super clean, then you can put 1 grain at a time on agar or use small amounts for G2G, then expand that (5-10x) for spawning.

:plur:




my thoughts exactly:highfive:

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Invisiblenotanumber
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Greenvalley]
    #16844390 - 09/13/12 11:59 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So how can some mycellial networks be thousands of years old? I guess there would be none of the original genetics left in current samples taken from really old large networks of Armillaria for example?

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OfflineIamYou
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: notanumber]
    #16844408 - 09/14/12 12:04 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

because there is no such thing as purely isolated sub-strains in nature.  its all ms out in the wild, one big orgy :wink:


--------------------
“Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego.”
- You


Remember, be here now...

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Invisiblenotanumber
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: IamYou]
    #16844438 - 09/14/12 12:13 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

for sure, of course, but if you think about it, cloning is really just giving a single genetic strain more colonization space. In the wild, a network isn't constrained (by jar walls etc) in the same way as when grown artificially.

I guess I'm curious how long a single genetic isolate lasts within the context of a large established network.

Probably not thousands of years-- but then the obvious implication is that mycellial networks maybe shouldn't be thought of as single organisms (as some people often call them) but cities/colonies or whatever.

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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: notanumber]
    #16844453 - 09/14/12 12:16 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

i think ill keep one isolated strain going as long as possible just to see what happens.:cheers:

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OfflineIamYou
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: notanumber]
    #16844464 - 09/14/12 12:20 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

notanumber said:
for sure, of course, but if you think about it, cloning is really just giving a single genetic strain more colonization space. In the wild, a network isn't constrained (by jar walls etc) in the same way as when grown artificially.

I guess I'm curious how long a single genetic isolate lasts within the context of a large established network.

Probably not thousands of years-- but then the obvious implication is that mycellial networks maybe shouldn't be thought of as single organisms (as some people often call them) but cities/colonies or whatever.



hmm.. im not the person to shed some light on this but possibly the substrains that run out of steam get taken over by younger/stronger ones by means of spore germination...?


--------------------
“Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego.”
- You


Remember, be here now...

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InvisibleOeric McKenna
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: IamYou]
    #16844484 - 09/14/12 12:26 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I like spores


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OfflineZappityZap
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: Oeric McKenna]
    #16844507 - 09/14/12 12:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I was actually surprised by how quickly senescence kicks in for a strain.

I take spores, make a jar, make a GLC, inoculate a bunch of jars, make a monotub, choose a candidate to clone, and pop that clone biopsy into a few LC's.

It grows out I have my master LC, in 500ml jars, roughly half full.

This would colonize WBS jars in a week.

As the backup jar emptied, I would take the last little bit and shoot it into a new LC, rather than crack open another master culture.

Well this one was much slower to grow, about 2 weeks.

When I took the last bit left in that one, and injected it into a new LC, so this is LC generation 3 jar. It basically doesn't colonize anymore. Takes at least a month.

So keep young master cultures.


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Offlinetropicalfrenzy
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: ZappityZap]
    #16844673 - 09/14/12 01:42 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

same as weed... 3 generations to breakdown. :cookiemonster:


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Invisibleop2kal
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: tropicalfrenzy]
    #16844735 - 09/14/12 02:15 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tropicalfrenzy said:
same as weed... 3 generations to breakdown. :cookiemonster:





Id love to see the proof on that.... Ive cloned the same strain over 20 generation seen nothing bad yet... Think about all the clones passed around??? And what about all the clone only strains passed from a mother plant -- oh wait no thats a clone that they gave him to make a mother plant, wait what he's doing the same thing to give it to that guy over there- and and the same thing over there???

The theory seems like total BS to me, if the plant isn't healthy it isn't going to be what you want it to be and that seems to be the case in most peeps strains going to hell over multiple generations. Many knowledgeable peeps in the medicinal communitys have found that there strains get better with a few generations.

EDIT: Of course this is in response to marijuana. Mushrooms? I am still learning them. First grow coming soon :smile:


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Edited by op2kal (09/14/12 02:20 AM)

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OfflineGreenvalley
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: op2kal]
    #16844738 - 09/14/12 02:17 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

this is some good info you guys, I look foward to my own results

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Offlinetropicalfrenzy
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: op2kal]
    #16844841 - 09/14/12 03:52 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

op2kal said:
Quote:

tropicalfrenzy said:
same as weed... 3 generations to breakdown. :cookiemonster:





Id love to see the proof on that.... Ive cloned the same strain over 20 generation seen nothing bad yet... Think about all the clones passed around??? And what about all the clone only strains passed from a mother plant -- oh wait no thats a clone that they gave him to make a mother plant, wait what he's doing the same thing to give it to that guy over there- and and the same thing over there???

The theory seems like total BS to me, if the plant isn't healthy it isn't going to be what you want it to be and that seems to be the case in most peeps strains going to hell over multiple generations. Many knowledgeable peeps in the medicinal communitys have found that there strains get better with a few generations.

EDIT: Of course this is in response to marijuana. Mushrooms? I am still learning them. First grow coming soon :smile:




I read this and thought 'bollocks'... So I googled it. Sure enough it is an urban myth that there is genetic breakdown with weed (one that I believed), and there are in fact many clone only strains. Live and learn :hatsoff:


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Offlinecloudpersona
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: notanumber]
    #16844941 - 09/14/12 05:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

notanumber said:
for sure, of course, but if you think about it, cloning is really just giving a single genetic strain more colonization space. In the wild, a network isn't constrained (by jar walls etc) in the same way as when grown artificially.

I guess I'm curious how long a single genetic isolate lasts within the context of a large established network.

Probably not thousands of years-- but then the obvious implication is that mycellial networks maybe shouldn't be thought of as single organisms (as some people often call them) but cities/colonies or whatever.



Because there has been research to suggest that the strongest genetic substrain takes over the other substrains, (stamets, Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms). So as one grows weak another takes over, ensuring the continued survival.


--------------------
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OfflineIamYou
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: cloudpersona]
    #16845010 - 09/14/12 06:16 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Because there has been research to suggest that the strongest genetic substrain takes over the other substrains, (stamets, Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms). So as one grows weak another takes over, ensuring the continued survival.



hmm... i guess my hunch/stab in the dark was close to being correct.
peace


--------------------
“Life lived in the absence of the psychedelic experience is life trivialized, life denied, life enslaved to the ego.”
- You


Remember, be here now...

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Invisibleop2kal
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Re: Can I clone infinitely? [Re: tropicalfrenzy]
    #16845342 - 09/14/12 08:58 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tropicalfrenzy said:

I read this and thought 'bollocks'... So I googled it. Sure enough it is an urban myth that there is genetic breakdown with weed (one that I believed), and there are in fact many clone only strains. Live and learn :hatsoff:





Thank you for doing research before replying to that :smile: Wasn't being rude just stating my findings and many others I know of... now on that note I will tell you some strains may degrade a little or become slightly unstable through lots and lots of cloning. Lot of times, they recover just fine though.

Cheers:rasta:


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