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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Edame]
    #1699787 - 07/09/03 01:34 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Well I'll take I half point then for I feel I made an attempt.

I'll take your word for it that you disagree.

Neither of us will be completely satisfied.

That's life.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Anonymous

Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Edame]
    #1699917 - 07/09/03 02:21 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

this should clear things up.

is duplicating a copyrighted song or CD without permission illegal?

well, i checked it out. you can too if you'd like. get a CD case (if you can find one). look at the back. here's one... this one says,

"? 1970 Warner Bros. Records Inc. All rights reserved. Unauthorized duplication is a violation of applicable laws ." (Emphasis Added)

i'll try to explain (once again) what a copyright is. it is a legally binding agreement between the artist and consumer. it says, "you may have this, but only if it is not duplicated without my permission".

to conclude that P2P file sharing is not copyright infringement and therefore illegal, one of the following would have to be true.

1. when sharing files, material is not duplicated.

this first one is clearly not true. files are copied when files are shared.

2. when sharing files, one has the permission of the holder of the copyright to do so.

this one's not true either, unless you actually get such permission before logging onto kazaa and downloading some songs.

P2P file sharing constitutes duplicating, without permission, material that has been copyrighted (material which is illegal to duplicate without permission), and so is illegal.

there's really no question about it. it's really that simple, but again, some of the shroomery's feeblest minds will surely go on believing that which they find more comfortable to believe, no matter how flawed.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: ]
    #1699933 - 07/09/03 02:28 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

So it's not theft as long as none of the people sharing the same file are listening to the same song at the same time.

Interesting.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Anonymous

Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1699944 - 07/09/03 02:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

if i own a CD which i purchased legally, i can listen to it alone, with other people, or even sell it to someone or give it away.

the one thing i cannot do is duplicate it. (or play it for profit. this is also forbidden by most copyright agreements. i'm not sure if DJ's are expected to get permission before playing songs at parties. theoretically, they should have to, just like radio stations.)

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: ]
    #1699955 - 07/09/03 02:38 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Did you mean to reply to me in particular? I agree with what you wrote, as I was not arguing over the legality of downloading copyrighted works.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Anonymous

Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Edame]
    #1699957 - 07/09/03 02:40 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

no, it wasn't directed at you.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: ]
    #1699963 - 07/09/03 02:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You can duplicate it as a backup. If the origional container is destroyed, you still have access to your property which is the data. Copying for archival purposes is legal.

As long as only one person is the "owner" of this data, then no theft has occured. Transmission of the data may be made by physical means, or electronic means.

I believe that if there were a file sharing program that only allowed one person to use the data from a purchased source at a time, then all this could be done legally, just the same as if you were letting someone borrow your CD. It could then not be considered theft.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Anonymous

Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1699976 - 07/09/03 02:48 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

interesting.

that sounds like it could be legal right now. i think the industry would see it as simply an exploitation of a loophole, and copyright laws would just be changed accordingly. it's not much different than what goes on at the library with books though...

letting someone borrow a CD is ok as far as I know (if borrowing copyrighted material is illegal, the library's in a hellalotta trouble)... for it to be a crime, the person borrowing it would have to copy it.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: ]
    #1699984 - 07/09/03 02:50 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

And retain a copy after it was returned.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Edame]
    #1700116 - 07/09/03 03:37 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Edame writes:

Quote:

theft...the generic term for all crimes in which a person intentionally and
fraudulently takes personal property of another without permission or
consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (including
potential sale).




An artist's works are his personal property. It has been well established for centuries that this is the case. Legally it is referred to as "intellectual property", but it is nonetheless property. Someone who clandestinely downloads a song that holds a current copyright is taking the personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (i.e. to listen to it) including potential sale (i.e. trade to a friend or some random visitor to a P2P site).

Clearly, P2P transfer meets the above definition of theft in every particular, no matter what sophistry you employ to try to argue it doesn't. This is not just my opinion, by the way, it has been settled time and time again in courts all over the world.

Note that it is not just the master tape in the studio that is copyrighted, nor just any copies that remain in the physical possession of the artist -- all copies of the work are covered by the same copyright. This is why they chose to name it "copy" "right" in the first place. The owner of the copyright is the one who gets to decide who may copy his intellectual property.

Nowhere in that definition does the word 'theft' enter into the equation.

Because the definition you provided is of "copyright", not "copyright violation". Copyright is not theft, it is protection against theft. Copyright violation is theft.

If you infringe on someone's copyright (their right to copy)...

...then you have stolen their intellectual property, and you are a thief.

pinky


--------------------

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1700125 - 07/09/03 03:43 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

And digital copies are considered to be exact copies the last I heard.




Last time I checked, the MP3 format does not use lossless compression. Unless you're a tonedef bastard (or you listen to CD's on a clock radio), a 128Kbs MP3 is not an exact copy of a cd.

You keep bringing up the point that it's still illegal. I never said it wasn't.I was just saying I don't care,because I don't see it as immoral.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

Edited by grandmasterfat (07/09/03 03:53 PM)

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Anonymous

Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: monoamine]
    #1700186 - 07/09/03 04:09 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

You keep bringing up the point that it's still illegal. I never said it wasn't.I was just saying I don't care,because I don't see it as immoral.

stealing is not immoral in your world? breaking an agreement is not immoral in your world?

i'll bet you're a socialist, no?  :tongue:

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: ]
    #1700242 - 07/09/03 04:33 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

I don't really see it as stealing,in the usual sense of the word. What agreement? I never made an agreement with anyone. I may be binded by laws I don't agree with, but I still never agreed to anything.

You bet I'm a socialist? Way to jump the gun. I bet you're a Nazi,no? (I don't really mean that,see what happens when you start to assume things.)


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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OfflineSombie
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: ]
    #1700261 - 07/09/03 04:42 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

to people who think that pirating is stealing...



If you have some prints of an artist's work, and you give away some of these prints then is that stealing?


--------------------
"America... just a nation of two hundred million used car salesmen with all the money we need to buy guns and no qualms about killing anybody else in the world who tries to make us uncomfortable." - Hunter S Thompson

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Anonymous

Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: monoamine]
    #1700278 - 07/09/03 04:48 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

first, take a deep breath and chill out.

second... when you consume copyrighted material, you are agreeing to abide by the copyright. you needn't sign anything. i've already tried to explain the nature of a copyright here several times.

is it the idea of a copyright you have a problem with? do you not think that people who create music, art, or literature should have any right to make stipulations on how the material may be used?

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Anonymous

Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Sombie]
    #1700287 - 07/09/03 04:49 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

duplicates of copyrighted material cannot be made without permission from the owner of the copyright.

if the original painting is copyrighted, then the copyright holder either gave permission for it to be duplicated, or it was illegal.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Sombie]
    #1700293 - 07/09/03 04:50 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Not if the prints were printed with permission of the owner of the image of the art.

BTW, owning a piece of art is not nessisarily the same thing as owning the rights to the image. One person can own the image and the rights to reproduce it while another person is the owner of the origional physical object.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleEdame
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Phred]
    #1700295 - 07/09/03 04:51 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

An artist's works are his personal property. It has been well established for centuries that this is the case. Legally it is referred to as "intellectual property", but it is nonetheless property. Someone who clandestinely downloads a song that holds a current copyright is taking the personal property of another without permission or consent and with the intent to convert it to the taker's use (i.e. to listen to it) including potential sale (i.e. trade to a friend or some random visitor to a P2P site).

The idea of copyright is to allow exclusive copying and distribution, it does not itself denote actual ownership. If an artist writes a poem, he does not 'own' the verses. He can't own words like they are property, but if he thinks he's perhaps the first to arrange those words in a particular way then he can copyright the work and (temporarily) make some money on his use of language. If you are downloading it illegally then you would be making an unauthorised copy. The point is that you would be copying it, theft denotes that something is actually taken (ie. I now have something that you don't). If someone could actually 'own' a series of words, that would infringe on my right to freedom of speech.

Because the definition you provided is of "copyright", not "copyright violation". Copyright is not theft, it is protection against theft. Copyright violation is theft.

I did actually have another definition ready, for infringement, but I really didn't think I'd need to post it (I'll do it now).

infringement
n. 1) a trespassing or illegal entering. 2) in the law of patents (protected
inventions) and copyrights (protected writings or graphics), the improper
use of a patent, writing, graphic or trademark without permission, without
notice, and especially without contracting for payment of a royalty. Even
though the infringement may be accidental (an inventor thinks he is the
first to develop the widget although someone else has a patent), the party
infringing is responsible to pay the original patent or copyright owner
substantial damages, which can be the normal royalty or as much as the
infringers' accumulated gross profits.


I didn't use the term copyright violation at any time, just infringement. If I own the copyright to a work, and someone copies it illegally, then I would be entitled to go to court to claim damages for their illegal infringement of my exclusive right to copy/distribute the work. You cannot 'own' an idea, only the unique expression of that idea (be it poetry or song, invention etc...). 'Intellectual property' is a catch-all term used to group things like trademark/copyright/trade secrets/patents etc... together. This makes it appear that ideas can actually be owned. It (IP) doesn't itself have a legal definition.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.

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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: Edame]
    #1700335 - 07/09/03 05:00 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

The idea of copyright is to allow exclusive copying and distribution, it does not itself denote actual ownership




Right. There are tons of artists that do not even own the rights to their own works. That's exactly why I don't feel the last bit bad about downloading music.I still contribute to artist in other ways.


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: P2P file sharing. [Re: monoamine]
    #1700350 - 07/09/03 05:03 PM (20 years, 8 months ago)

No-one here said you should feel bad.

But it's still stealing. As I said earlier.... shit by any other name still stinks.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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