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Offlineostropolier
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Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science!
    #16824905 - 09/10/12 06:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

A while ago there was a question posted ,

"What is it in Coffee that's allegedly good for mycelium? Why do people add coffee to the grain soak...or grounds to the substrate?  Is it the acidity? The caffeine? Other?"

Nobody on the boards was willing to offer up anything more descriptive than "It just works, ok?" .

I was in the process of designing a grand study...with caffeinated agar vs non, decaf coffee soaks vs powdered No-Doz...etc...  and remembered a good practice of a would-be scientist, which is  "Why Not Check the Science Journals For Such A Study First, See if a Satisfactory Study has Already Been Done and Go From There?"

Well, Google conjured up this : 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15709800 ; <-- Coffee Pulp Good... Caffeine Bad!

http://www.scielo.br/pdf/bjm/v37n4/v37n4a03.pdf ; <-- Same Result, in fact the more caffeine, the slower the colonization until it's halted completely!  It is all the other nutrients in coffee beans that nourish the fruits.

So , there it is... I'd stop tossing Starbucks into the soak, folks!  The caffeine is also found to be catabolized by the mycelium as well... So any reports of anything but spent grounds "Speeding up Colonization" or even "Increases potency"  are simply not true.

Just thought I'd pass this along!
-LS


--------------------
"IF there is only one difference between a novice and a master psychonaut, its that the Novice seeks out altered states so they can be distracted from the real world,

while the Master seeks out altered states so they can have a chance of seeing a part of real world outside of their constructs..

One is arguably far bolder than the other.

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OfflineTheDeathryder
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: ostropolier]
    #16824932 - 09/10/12 06:22 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Neither of your links work.

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Offlineostropolier
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: TheDeathryder]
    #16825691 - 09/10/12 08:44 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Eek... Sorry about that!

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1517-83822006000400003&script=sci_arttext

or

http://www.scientificcircle.com/en/109062/effect-caffeine-tannins-cultivation-fructification-pleurotus/

Brazilian Journal of Microbiology ; Effect of caffeine and tannins on cultivation and fructification of Pleurotus on coffee husks


http://www.alohamedicinals.com/book2/chapter-4-02-02.pdf

Shiitaki cultivation with coffee residues


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"IF there is only one difference between a novice and a master psychonaut, its that the Novice seeks out altered states so they can be distracted from the real world,

while the Master seeks out altered states so they can have a chance of seeing a part of real world outside of their constructs..

One is arguably far bolder than the other.

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OfflineTheDeathryder
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: ostropolier]
    #16825731 - 09/10/12 08:51 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Very interesting.  If I were still cultivating cubes, I'd set up a side by side with decaf/regular to confirm the results myself...I might still try it out with my oysters...

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OfflineSpencerPhillips
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: TheDeathryder]
    #16825816 - 09/10/12 09:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Thanks, this really touches to one of my very first posts I jumped in on.

Glad I never saved froze or sun-dried any grounds :smile:


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Come on put it up! Woooo!

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OfflineSpencerPhillips
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: SpencerPhillips]
    #16825831 - 09/10/12 09:14 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Sorry to double dip but., ostropolier has PM's off.

Wanted to thank ostropolier


--------------------
Come on put it up! Woooo!

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OfflineMad Science
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: ostropolier]
    #16825847 - 09/10/12 09:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Behold! Science!!!!!:thumbup:


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"Losers visualize the consequences of failure; Winners visualize the rewards of success."

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Offlinedodgem
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: SpencerPhillips]
    #16825856 - 09/10/12 09:17 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

We need to start using the word fructification a lot more on the forums here.

But very interesting indeed, may have to start adding some decaf to my bulk substrates.  Thanks for sharing.


--------------------
Walk where you like your steps

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OfflineTheDeathryder
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: dodgem]
    #16825863 - 09/10/12 09:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

dodgem said:
We need to start using the word fructification a lot more on the forums here.

But very interesting indeed, may have to start adding some decaf to my bulk substrates.  Thanks for sharing.




Make sure that's fresh decaf :smile:

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Offlinezepski
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: ostropolier]
    #16825888 - 09/10/12 09:24 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

ostropolier said:
So , there it is... I'd stop tossing Starbucks into the soak, folks!  The caffeine is also found to be catabolized by the mycelium as well... So any reports of anything but spent grounds "Speeding up Colonization" or even "Increases potency"  are simply not true.

Just thought I'd pass this along!
-LS




This is why the coffee is diluted. And when added to bulk subs we use spent coffee

from the article:
Quote:


Caffeine concentrations of 50 to 100 mg.L-1 had positive effect on mycelial growth, but a concentration of 300 mg.L-1 or above inhibited mycelial growth and fructification.




Coffee is 230–580mg/L (link) so we dilute it by 50% we are at 115-290.  So i guess based on that info you could say we wanna do 1 part coffee to 3 parts water. But either way it still well below the 300mg/l mark. 

Using coffee in soaks is not as harmful as it made out to be. Just saying :themoreyouknow:

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OfflineGrumpyorc
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: zepski]
    #16825930 - 09/10/12 09:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I always figured it was the nitrogen


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Offlineostropolier
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: zepski]
    #16847444 - 09/14/12 04:45 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

zepski said:
Quote:

ostropolier said:
So , there it is... I'd stop tossing Starbucks into the soak, folks!  The caffeine is also found to be catabolized by the mycelium as well... So any reports of anything but spent grounds "Speeding up Colonization" or even "Increases potency"  are simply not true.

Just thought I'd pass this along!
-LS




This is why the coffee is diluted. And when added to bulk subs we use spent coffee

from the article:
Quote:


Caffeine concentrations of 50 to 100 mg.L-1 had positive effect on mycelial growth, but a concentration of 300 mg.L-1 or above inhibited mycelial growth and fructification.




Coffee is 230–580mg/L (link) so we dilute it by 50% we are at 115-290.  So i guess based on that info you could say we wanna do 1 part coffee to 3 parts water. But either way it still well below the 300mg/l mark. 

Using coffee in soaks is not as harmful as it made out to be. Just saying :themoreyouknow:




Your plan of diluting it 1/3 sounds like good math.. but what about other variables like spawn/substrate/pH to adjust, blah blah blah...

With all of that in mind, I personally think of adding Caffeine to the mix as more trouble than it's worth, an added risk with an unreliable payoff.


--------------------
"IF there is only one difference between a novice and a master psychonaut, its that the Novice seeks out altered states so they can be distracted from the real world,

while the Master seeks out altered states so they can have a chance of seeing a part of real world outside of their constructs..

One is arguably far bolder than the other.

Edited by ostropolier (09/14/12 04:50 PM)

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Offlinezepski
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: ostropolier]
    #16847583 - 09/14/12 05:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I was referring to soaking of grains in diluted coffee.  With my math.

But using spent grounds in substrate I never do (Because i find saving the grinds a hassle).  However when adding them to sub you gotta remember they have been leeched and a lot of the caffeine is gone into the coffee. (On a side note decaf still has caffeine i think its 5-10 cups = 1 normal cup)  So i dont see why using spent grounds would be any different then using decaf other then if it was spent decaf which would have a dramatically low amount of caffeine. (If i recall starbucks just reuses there regular grounds for decaf.  2nd run is decaf.  Note this info was from an ex starbucks employee who could of been feeding me lies just to make me not goto starbucks lol)

So decaf seems to be the better of the two aside from the fact that a little amount of caffeine is beneficial.

One thing also to consider is that if you plan to use fresh decaf I think will run into issues due to high nitrogen levels but I am going from memory for this fact* so i may be wrong.  hehe

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Offlineostropolier
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: zepski]
    #16852576 - 09/15/12 05:00 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Excellent points.. thanks for the input, it puts the studies i posted in far more appropriate context!


--------------------
"IF there is only one difference between a novice and a master psychonaut, its that the Novice seeks out altered states so they can be distracted from the real world,

while the Master seeks out altered states so they can have a chance of seeing a part of real world outside of their constructs..

One is arguably far bolder than the other.

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OfflineMycoDale
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: ostropolier]
    #16854179 - 09/15/12 11:47 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Great find thanks for the information. I was always skeptical of coffee grounds so it's nice to see some solid facts

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OfflineZappityZap
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Re: Coffee Debate = Resolved.... with Science! [Re: ostropolier]
    #16854192 - 09/15/12 11:50 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I started adding tea grounds a long time ago. It seemed to increase the yield and potency.
They were used and dried out, and put in before pasteurization.
Really I don't think the caffeine is doing anything, I thought it was the dried out plant matter providing nutrients, and better improving my ratios.

Liebig's law of the minimum. It's the sum of the parts, not 1 particular part.


--------------------
You'll never know, when it'll strike like lightning!

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