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Nature Boy
Stranger than most



Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 8,247
Loc: Samsara
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Why do we do it the way we do???
#16815748 - 09/09/12 07:17 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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I've been wondering...is there a reason why we first sterilize rye berries, knock them up, WAIT (round 1 delay) for a couple of weeks for full colonization, and then use the spawn to colonize bulk substrate (round 2 of waiting) for THAT to fully colonize, and then fruit. That's not how nature does it.
Why not take a mixture of (for example) field capacity HPOO, straw, gypsum - whatever your favorite bulk substrate is - sterilize THAT in several round, stacked cookie tins in your sterilizer, and knock them up with 10 or so cc's of liquid culture? Metal cookie tin cover could easily be modified to provide gas exchange and inoculation point(s). Seems simple enough to me, but what do I know. 
So...any comments? Why do we do it the way we do it? Would this be more "time efficient?"
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
Edited by Nature Boy (09/09/12 07:19 AM)
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BargainBab
Hey Dere Ho Dere



Registered: 04/04/11
Posts: 1,178
Loc: Callisto
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: Nature Boy]
#16815758 - 09/09/12 07:21 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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I personally won't ever use sterilized manure again. I was so underwhelmed by the results that I really think you'd be better spawning grains. Have you ever used sawdust spwan?
-------------------- Oh wow, GOOD Nyborg!
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Nature Boy
Stranger than most



Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 8,247
Loc: Samsara
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: BargainBab]
#16815767 - 09/09/12 07:25 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Was that a one-time disappointment or is your experience from multiple underwhelming results? Arguably, all the nutrients should be in there.
No...never used sawdust spawn.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: Nature Boy]
#16815782 - 09/09/12 07:30 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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A couple reasons people don't do it that way:
- Growing in bulk, you're going to need a large PC to hold large trays or several smaller ones
- Spores rarely (if ever) germinate directly on a bulk substrate. If your grain is mixed into the bulk sub the chances of your spores coming into contact with the grains and germinating is decreased
People that do what you're talking about typically do it in large spawn bags and use lots of liquid culture for inoculation. From there you can fruit invitro or fruit as a block in an FC or even form the bag to the shape of the fruiting tray and cut off the top.
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Quick WBS Prep
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Nature Boy
Stranger than most



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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: FooMan]
#16815798 - 09/09/12 07:37 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooMan said: A couple reasons people don't do it that way:
- Growing in bulk, you're going to need a large PC to hold large trays or several smaller ones
Well, I addressed that with the round cookie tin aspect of the proposal. They are available for cheap in various depths.
Quote:
- Spores rarely (if ever) germinate directly on a bulk substrate. If your grain is mixed into the bulk sub the chances of your spores coming into contact with the grains and germinating is decreased
Well, that IS how it happens in nature, but, I'm willing to concede that that aspect could be highly influential in the success or failure of such a venture as I proposed.
Quote:
People that do what you're talking about typically do it in large spawn bags and use lots of liquid culture for inoculation. From there you can fruit invitro or fruit as a block in an FC or even form the bag to the shape of the fruiting tray and cut off the top.
Yeah...that DOES seem more practical. You can see the progress through the bag and know when its time to fruit. That makes a great deal of sense to me. I like the last part the best...forming to the tray and cutting off the top. 
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
Edited by Nature Boy (09/09/12 07:39 AM)
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BargainBab
Hey Dere Ho Dere



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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: Nature Boy]
#16815869 - 09/09/12 07:59 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Nature Boy said: Was that a one-time disappointment or is your experience from multiple underwhelming results? Arguably, all the nutrients should be in there.
No...never used sawdust spawn.
N.B.
Just a couple small spawn bags and one large one, but I'm happier with pasturizing. Sawdust is pretty wonderful, I use tons when I use it. If you don't want to wait for grains, make your sawdust a bit dry and load it with lc. I use half pint reg mouth jars for sawdust, and they're at 100% in 4-6 days.
-------------------- Oh wow, GOOD Nyborg!
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: Nature Boy]
#16815903 - 09/09/12 08:13 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Well, that IS how it happens in nature, but, I'm willing to concede that that aspect could be highly influential in the success or failure of such a venture as I proposed.
I'm betting cube spores don't germinate in manure in nature either unless that manure has some type of grain in it, which is pretty typical for horse & cow feeds. In nature mushrooms form from underground mycelial networks that can be several miles wide and formed over several years. Even with all that mycelium in the ground, conditions have to be just right before you'll see fruitbodies. The artificial conditions we can create are much more optimal.
How it happens in nature isn't very efficient, that's why people have to "hunt" for mushrooms.
I could take a bunch of little tins and grow directly out of them OR I could take a bunch of quart jars of colonized grain and inoculate up to 5x that amount of pasteurized bulk substrate in trays/tubs as large as I want. Kind of a no-brainer for me.
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Quick WBS Prep
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Grumpyorc
Ghost


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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: FooMan]
#16816016 - 09/09/12 08:38 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooMan said:
I'm betting cube spores don't germinate in manure in nature either unless that manure has some type of grain in it, which is pretty typical for horse & cow feeds. In nature mushrooms form from underground mycelial networks that can be several miles wide and formed over several years. Even with all that mycelium in the ground, conditions have to be just right before you'll see fruitbodies. The artificial conditions we can create are much more optimal.
That's the coolest thing IV ever read
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TheDeathryder
Reaper



Registered: 04/26/12
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: FooMan]
#16816022 - 09/09/12 08:39 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Like FooMan said, it's all about efficiency. By giving the ideal conditions for mycelial growth, we increase the speed of colonization, the quality of fruit bodies, and decrease the risk of failure through contamination. Nature is wonderful, science built on nature's laws is better
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Thadeous
On the path


Registered: 08/02/11
Posts: 1,101
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: Grumpyorc]
#16816153 - 09/09/12 09:29 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grumpyorc said: That's the coolest thing IV ever read
QFT. Excellent thread. A fun snippet:
Is this the largest organism in the world? This 2,400-acre (9.7 km2) site in eastern Oregon had a contiguous growth of mycelium before logging roads cut through it. Estimated at 1,665 football fields in size and 2,200 years old, this one fungus has killed the forest above it several times over, and in so doing has built deeper soil layers that allow the growth of ever-larger stands of trees. Mushroom-forming forest fungi are unique in that their mycelial mats can achieve such massive proportions. —Paul Stamets, Mycelium Running
Talk about bulk grows right?
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure



Registered: 03/26/03
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: Thadeous]
#16816629 - 09/09/12 11:10 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Paul took that picture in the book from the back seat of my plane about ten years ago. It's estimated that patch is a few thousand years old. I'm now in the process of documenting one in Washington State which I think is going to turn out to be bigger.
To the OP, we could do it like in nature, but we might wait decades for mushrooms to form. The sterile-culture techniques we have developed of taking spores to grains to bulk substrates gives mushrooms in a few weeks. RR
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"I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison
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Nature Boy
Stranger than most



Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 8,247
Loc: Samsara
Last seen: 28 days, 16 hours
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: TheDeathryder]
#16816829 - 09/09/12 11:47 AM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
TheDeathryder said: Nature is wonderful, science built on nature's laws is better 
Indeed!!!! 
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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PureHash



Registered: 08/16/11
Posts: 1,126
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: Nature Boy]
#16818125 - 09/09/12 03:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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you dont sterilize bulk subs, and LC doesnt have enough mycelium to start healthy growth in the substrate, this is why we us 1:3~ spaw ratio instea on 1:.00000010 spawn ratio (about 10 ml of LC)
If you can spawn a mono successfully with 2 or 3 individual colonized grains, then you may be able to gorw it out with 10 ml of LC
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Nature Boy
Stranger than most



Registered: 07/09/07
Posts: 8,247
Loc: Samsara
Last seen: 28 days, 16 hours
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Re: Why do we do it the way we do??? [Re: PureHash]
#16818616 - 09/09/12 05:36 PM (12 years, 4 months ago) |
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Put that way, it makes perfect sense. Learned something today! Thanks for the education. I knew there must have been a reason for doing it the way we do...only ideas come to me in the shower and they SEEM sensible at the time.
N.B.
-------------------- All submitted posts under this user name are works of pure fiction or outright lies. Any information, statement, or assertion contained therein should be considered pure unadulterated bullshit. Note well: Sorry, but I do not answer PM's unless you are a long-time trusted friend. If you have a question, ask it in the appropriate thread.
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