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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: Phred]
    #1691482 - 07/07/03 12:13 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
SlapnutRob writes:

Dean has never claimed Liberia is a threat!

Yes, I know. He says that Iraq was never a threat, and presumably he believes that Liberia is not a threat either. How does that make the two situations opposite, or even "significantly different"? It doesn't. Neither (according to Mr. Dean) was a threat.

There was an ongoing human rights crisis in Iraq. There is an ongoing human rights crisis in Liberia. How does that make the two situations opposite, or even "significantly different"? It doesn't. Both are/were crises.

The objection is not to Mr. Dean's position on the issue, but on his self-contradictory justification of said position. To claim that the situations are "different" is just not true. Boortz and Opinionjournal.com are asking, "If it is correct to send US troops into harms way to end a human rights crisis in Liberia, why was it incorrect to do the same in Iraq?"

pinky




Claiming the situations are "different" is exactly true. Sure, there was a big humanitarian situation in Iraq, but Iraq cost us like 100 billion dollars, and was an invasion resulting in an occupation. It was called a "war" by the media. Liberia is not a "war", and that fact alone makes them different situations.

This alone proves they're different:

Iraq:
Mission: Liberation/Invasion
US Troops Committed: 300,000 +
Civilian Casualties: estimated at least 5,000

Liberia:
Mission: Police/Humanitarian
US Troops Committed: 500-2,000
Civilian Casualties: obviously unknown, but sure to be much less


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OfflineMaynardIsGod
Chomskyite

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 17
Loc: Virginia
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: Phred]
    #1691527 - 07/07/03 12:30 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Boortz has his head up his political ass. Iraq was in the "Axis of Evil" not because of it's human rights violations, but because of it's supposed WMD. Saddam was evil, according to Bush, not because he gassed his own Kurdish rebels, but because he was a threat to the United States. He lied to the American public. He lied about "Mission Accomplished". He lied about the costs, and I want to say he lied about the reasons, but I don't know what they are. How is the proposed Peace Keeping mission in Liberia the same as that? We are keeping the peace not invading another country who's populace doesn't want us there in the first place.




--------------------

"But we create human nature. Men are infinitely malleable." - George Orwell, 1984.


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 6 years, 10 months
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1691533 - 07/07/03 12:33 AM (18 years, 5 months ago)

SlapnutRob writes:

Quote:

Claiming the situations are "different" is exactly true. Sure, there was a big humanitarian situation in Iraq, but Iraq cost us like 100 billion dollars, and was an invasion resulting in an occupation. It was called a "war" by the media. Liberia is not a "war", and that fact alone makes them different situations.

This alone proves they're different:

Iraq:
Mission: Liberation/Invasion
US Troops Committed: 300,000 +
Civilian Casualties: estimated at least 5,000

Liberia:
Mission: Police/Humanitarian
US Troops Committed: 500-2,000
Civilian Casualties: obviously unknown, but sure to be much less






The figures quoted are quantitative, not qualitative. Military interventions do not all involve exactly equal sums of money, troops, or casualties, but that is a only question of scale.

As for what the media chooses to call it, I am sure the people of Liberia see themselves as living in a war zone. And let's not forget the media called the recovery of Private Jessica Lynch a daring rescue, and they routinely call various miscreants either rebels or terrorists, depending on the whim of the story editor.

Edame points out one thing to bear in mind, though... the possibility that Mr. Dean was either misquote or quoted out of context. Boortz says the phrase used was "significantly different", while opinionjournal.com says the phrase was "exactly the opposite", so we know that at least one of them has got it wrong. I did a quick google search hoping for a verbatim transcript, but had no joy. It must be out there somewhere, but I'll be damned if I can find it.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: Phred]
    #1693499 - 07/07/03 04:58 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

To anyone:
I heard Russert creamed Dean in his interview.

Anyone see it?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
Male

Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,949
Loc: Dominican Republic
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Re: Howard Dean? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1693628 - 07/07/03 05:35 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

I live in a third world country. I have no television and no radio and virtually no English language print media. All my news comes from the internet. Two questions:

1) Who is Russert?

2) Does Russert ever post transcripts of his/her interviews on the net?

pinky


--------------------


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OfflineMaynardIsGod
Chomskyite

Registered: 07/05/03
Posts: 17
Loc: Virginia
Last seen: 18 years, 4 months
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1693640 - 07/07/03 05:40 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

You should stop going on what you heard, Dean stood up like a pro to Russert.


--------------------

"But we create human nature. Men are infinitely malleable." - George Orwell, 1984.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
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Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: MaynardIsGod]
    #1693723 - 07/07/03 06:17 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Pinksharkmark, they may be living in a war zone, but the difference is Iraq was our war... we're not there for a war, but for peacekeeping. I'm neutral on the subject as of now... I don't see why Liberia is necessary when there are similar situations on the same continent (especially Congo, over 3.3 million dead over the last five years or so).

LDS, I saw that interview. I wouldn't say he got creamed by any means, but he could have done better. The one instance on the show that everyone mentions when they speak of Dean's "poor performance" was when he was asked how many persons we have in our military. Dean didn't know, and contended that it's not important for him to know (which I agree with)... however, Dean then estimated that it's in the region of 1-2 million (the answer was app. 1.4 million). A dead-on estimate. That part usually isn't mentioned when an opponent of his brings up this little incident.

I think he did fine, he just doesn't give conventional answers we're used to.... he'll question the questioner's questions quite often. Anyway, whether or not he did fine, it's not hurting him right now.... his popularity has been on the rise for the longest time.


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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: Phred]
    #1693728 - 07/07/03 06:18 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
1) Who is Russert?

2) Does Russert ever post transcripts of his/her interviews on the net?

pinky




Tim Russert is the host of "Meet the Press"... you should be able to find a transcript on their website.


--------------------
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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Howard Dean? [Re: Phred]
    #1693803 - 07/07/03 06:49 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
I live in a third world country. I have no television and no radio and virtually no English language print media. All my news comes from the internet. Two questions:

1) Who is Russert?

2) Does Russert ever post transcripts of his/her interviews on the net?

pinky



1. Tim Russert / Meet The Press

2. They have a web site but if you want a transcript it's $10.00 per.
I don't want one that badly.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: MaynardIsGod]
    #1693808 - 07/07/03 06:50 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MaynardIsGod said:
You should stop going on what you heard, Dean stood up like a pro to Russert.



And you should pay more attention. If I went by what I heard, I wouldn't have asked.

But what else could be expected from a Chumpskyite.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: SlapnutRob]
    #1693816 - 07/07/03 06:54 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for a straight answer. I heard it was a bit worse than you describe it, but opinions will vary.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Registered: 10/10/02
Posts: 27,301
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Re: Howard Dean? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1693907 - 07/07/03 07:29 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
To anyone:
I heard Russert creamed Dean in his interview.

Anyone see it?



I saw that interview. Dean handled himself pretty well for the most part, but there was once question he stumbled on. He said that we should have more troops in Iraq, but he didn't know how many we have in there right now. What Russert seemed to miss, though, was that he did give a rough estimate. Dean defended himself by saying that when he's president he'll have advisors to tell him these kind of things. I admit, he did look bad at that point in the interview, but I don't think you could really say that Russert "creamed" him.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
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Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,245
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Re: Howard Dean? [Re: Phred]
    #1693954 - 07/07/03 07:47 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

Found the transcript....

Here.

My read is he didn't do so well but as it's in print with no body language or facial expressions, I guess I'll never know.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSlapnutRob
Toolhead

Registered: 03/31/03
Posts: 520
Loc: Michigan
Last seen: 12 years, 4 months
Re: Howard Dean? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1694403 - 07/07/03 10:19 PM (18 years, 5 months ago)

True... Dean handles himself with body language and such very well... he's not one to be intimidated or defeated. I'll have to read this though because I didn't see the whole thing.


--------------------
Anything stated above is fictional roleplay dialog by the character that is Slapnut Rob, in no way representing the actions or beliefs of the man behind the keys.


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