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Offlinebattypie
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Brf jar problems
    #16792065 - 09/05/12 11:58 AM (12 years, 4 months ago)

So last night I made up a batch of 5 brf jars. Ground the rice myself too. So I went with about a 2-1.25-1 ratio since my vermiculite is more on the fine side I think. I brought the whole thing to field capacity and put it in jars. Filled them up to about the bottom lip of the jar and then added dry vermiculite to the top. I smoothed out the top of the jars and put my lids on. I covered the inoculation points with micro pore tape. Then put a layer of foil tightly over every jar and put them in my pressure cooker. I had the metal tray and a layer if lid rings in the bottom. I had water coming up to the top of the lid rings just about. Closed it up and turned on the heat to medium-high to get it up to pressure quickly. Once the weight started rocking I dropped it to low so it was barely moving. I let it go like this for 90 minutes. When the time was up I cut the heat and went to bed. Now that I'm home from school I checked the jars and was preparing to knock them up. It has only been 9 hours since I cut the heat so they weren't sitting in there for too long. I noticed a lot of residue on the foil on one jar so I took the foil off and there is condensation under the foil and on the lid and the tape is soaked. This happened with all of the other jars. So I opened them up and checked the vermiculite barrier and they weren't to the top of the jars anymore, they dropped about a half inch. The vermiculite was also wet so I'm gonna have to re make the jars. My question is. What did I do wrong? I've never had this problem before using aluminum foil instead of lids.
It also looks like the vermiculite bubbled up because some was stuck to the lids.


On a side note. Would using self healing injection ports instead of holes in the lid work if I used the felt tek for the GE hole and contam barrier?

Edited by battypie (09/05/12 04:34 PM)

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InvisibleDynGBreeD
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Registered: 01/15/11
Posts: 3,639
Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16792117 - 09/05/12 12:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah the condensation will go away. :shrug: The tape
not only serves as a small filter, but also helps keep
the moisture out of your Vermiculite barrier. How wet
was the Verm? Was it moisture wet, or soaked?

I use Plastic tubs with clear lids and notice condensation
on the bottom of the lid. But it goes away usually by the
next day, and never get contaminated jars.

Also those are the wrong jars. You need short half pints,
if you can't find them in glass try what I use. PP5 plastic, Steam/
PC safe.



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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: DynGBreeD]
    #16792138 - 09/05/12 12:15 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yeah, I know they're the wrong jars but I've been to many stores around me and can't find the short half pint ones :frown:
It was between moisture wet and soaked I guess. Felt like more than it should be. Either way I opened the jars up to see if they were all like that. Can I just add new dry verm to the tops and pop em back in the pc for maybe 15 min to make sure its all good or should I just start over completely?
Is that much settling normal? Or is it just because of the type of jar I'm using? Because the needle barely reaches the cakes, sometimes it doesn't because it settles so much.

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InvisibleDynGBreeD
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16792157 - 09/05/12 12:19 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I would start over... I'm sure someone will say you can
just dump out the Dry Verm, wipe the rim and add Fresh.
Then RE-Sterilize for 90 Minutes.

But I would go back using the Correct 2:1:1 Ratio.
I use pretty fine Vermiculite also, and have no
problems.

My Advise? Steam sterilize cakes. Don't PC, almost
always the substrate will settle.


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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: DynGBreeD]
    #16792192 - 09/05/12 12:25 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Alright, I guess I'll just start over. With steam sterilizing I can fit way more jars in since my pc is really small.
When using the 2:1:1 I can't squeeze any liquid out really. Is that fine? I always thought you needed it at field capacity.
Also, thanks for all the help!  :laugh:

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InvisibleDynGBreeD
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16792197 - 09/05/12 12:26 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

With cakes you want to be able to squeeze and no excess water
comes out. Field Capacity is for Bulk Substrates. :thumbup:


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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: DynGBreeD]
    #16792273 - 09/05/12 12:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Ohhhh well that will make a bit of a difference then. Guess I just mixed up some teks then.

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OfflineGrumpyorc
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16792333 - 09/05/12 12:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

you need to get the right jars before you start over, noobs never seem to think it matters but it does. those tall ones are fail.


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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: Grumpyorc]
    #16792750 - 09/05/12 02:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I can't get the short ones locally and I don't want to pay for shipping on them. Why are the tall ones so bad?

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Invisiblesnakeinthegrass
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16792835 - 09/05/12 02:37 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

"I had water coming up to the top of the lid rings just about."


lower the water level in your pc. I wouldn't go past an inch above the bottom of the jars.


--------------------
Trust No One :pipesmoke::thumbup: :shroomer:
Mushroom cultivation isn't a dick measuring contest. That's in a different forum.

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OfflineNovanity1
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16792861 - 09/05/12 02:44 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Grumpyorc said:
you need to get the right jars before you start over, noobs never seem to think it matters but it does. those tall ones are fail.




I've had plenty of success with the tall half pint glasses. My best flush yet (my avatar) was oddly enough from a tall half pint. IME, the only problem I have noticed from tall 1/2 pints is that the bottom takes a bit longer to colonize. They fruit just the same but can't really be double stacked.
But for those reasons you really should stick with the widemouth glasses. You will most likely have to get them online for $20ish but it's worth it.



As for your substrate compacting like that:


Perhaps the reason is because you packed the substrate in there too lightly. Make sure there are no air pockets while you are loading the jars up. I like to shake and swoosh the jars around lightly after every spoonful I put in.


Quote:

battypie said: So I went with about a 2.25-1-1 ratio since my vermiculite is more on the fine side I think. I brought the whole thing to field capacity and put it in jars.




I also wouldn't alter the verm ratio because you are using fine vermiculite. If anything, fine verm should fit in the jars better without air pockets because of how fine it is.

Also, you claim to have brought them to "field capacity" after the 2.25:1:1 ratio? Are you saying you added more water after you made the mixture? If so, then that's a HUGE no no. That initial 1 part water is all you need. No field capacity in the pf tek. That will get the cakes too mushy to colonize properly.

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OfflineGrumpyorc
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: Novanity1]
    #16793114 - 09/05/12 03:32 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I can't find it now but there was a post day before yesterday about a guy whos cake was pinning before 100%. this isnt neccesarily bad but it demonstrates my point.
also the tall jars take longer to colonize.
i may be throwing the word around a bit loosely but IMO this means fail. I mean ya you'll probably go from start to finish without any problems but who wants to half ass it.
theres SOMEWHERE that sells jars the size you need.
that being said if you just cant find em then ya ok youll make it but you should order the correct ones online.
I've used both and would never ever go back to the tall ones. the wide mouth just perform better.

good luck

oh and i wish i could adress your compacting issue but its never happened to me :/


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OfflineGoldenArrow
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16793128 - 09/05/12 03:34 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Problem to me is fairly obvious that the water boiled up into the jars....
Quote:

battypie said:
Then put a layer of foil tightly over every jar and put them in my pressure cooker. I had the metal tray and a layer if lid rings in the bottom. I had water coming up to the top of the lid rings just about.



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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: GoldenArrow]
    #16793410 - 09/05/12 04:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

snakeinthegrass said:
"I had water coming up to the top of the lid rings just about."


lower the water level in your pc. I wouldn't go past an inch above the bottom of the jars.



Sorry, I should have specified that the rings I was referring to were the ones keeping the jars off of the bottom of the pressure cooker.  :facepalm3:
Quote:

Novanity1 said:
Quote:

Grumpyorc said:
you need to get the right jars before you start over, noobs never seem to think it matters but it does. those tall ones are fail.




I've had plenty of success with the tall half pint glasses. My best flush yet (my avatar) was oddly enough from a tall half pint. IME, the only problem I have noticed from tall 1/2 pints is that the bottom takes a bit longer to colonize. They fruit just the same but can't really be double stacked.
But for those reasons you really should stick with the widemouth glasses. You will most likely have to get them online for $20ish but it's worth it.



As for your substrate compacting like that:


Perhaps the reason is because you packed the substrate in there too lightly. Make sure there are no air pockets while you are loading the jars up. I like to shake and swoosh the jars around lightly after every spoonful I put in.


Quote:

battypie said: So I went with about a 2.25-1-1 ratio since my vermiculite is more on the fine side I think. I brought the whole thing to field capacity and put it in jars.




I also wouldn't alter the verm ratio because you are using fine vermiculite. If anything, fine verm should fit in the jars better without air pockets because of how fine it is.

Also, you claim to have brought them to "field capacity" after the 2.25:1:1 ratio? Are you saying you added more water after you made the mixture? If so, then that's a HUGE no no. That initial 1 part water is all you need. No field capacity in the pf tek. That will get the cakes too mushy to colonize properly.



I had my teks confused and my numbers, I suppose that is what I get for working on this at 2 AM! I actaully meant to type 2:1.25:1 I kept the 2:1:1 ratio this time and they just came out of the pot from steam sterilizing. Looking better so far than when I pc'd them.
Quote:

Grumpyorc said:
I can't find it now but there was a post day before yesterday about a guy whos cake was pinning before 100%. this isn't necessarily bad but it demonstrates my point.
also the tall jars take longer to colonize.
i may be throwing the word around a bit loosely but IMO this means fail. I mean ya you'll probably go from start to finish without any problems but who wants to half ass it.
there's SOMEWHERE that sells jars the size you need.
that being said if you just cant find em then ya ok you'll make it but you should order the correct ones online.
I've used both and would never ever go back to the tall ones. the wide mouth just perform better.

good luck

oh and i wish i could address your compacting issue but its never happened to me :/



I'll see if I can get my local ace to order some in for me. Had to do that with my whole foods to get my rye berries!
I've never had the compacting issue before but after steaming instead of pressure cooking they don't look to be compacted at all.
Quote:

GoldenArrow said:
Problem to me is fairly obvious that the water boiled up into the jars....
Quote:

battypie said:
Then put a layer of foil tightly over every jar and put them in my pressure cooker. I had the metal tray and a layer if lid rings in the bottom. I had water coming up to the top of the lid rings just about.






I don't see how it could have boiled up though, I had only about 1" or so of water in the pressure cooker.

Thanks for all the help guys! :smile:

Edited by battypie (09/05/12 04:35 PM)

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OfflineBrowser
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16793593 - 09/05/12 04:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I can't get the short ones locally and I don't want to pay for shipping on them. Why are the tall ones so bad?




Shipping is cheap - you spent more on gas driving around on your fruitless mission than the shipping would have cost you. Just an observation. I don't mean to be rude.

http://www.goodmans.net/i/1908/kerr-0500-wide-mouth-mason-jar-half-pint-8oz.htm

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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: Browser]
    #16793685 - 09/05/12 04:58 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Browser said:
Quote:

I can't get the short ones locally and I don't want to pay for shipping on them. Why are the tall ones so bad?




Shipping is cheap - you spent more on gas driving around on your fruitless mission than the shipping would have cost you. Just an observation. I don't mean to be rude.

http://www.goodmans.net/i/1908/kerr-0500-wide-mouth-mason-jar-half-pint-8oz.htm



I calculated my shipping costs and the 5-7 day shipping was $12.99. That isn't more than the gas I spend to go to my local ace, target, or even wally world.
I often find myself buying other useful items when I go on a hunt for the wide mouth half pint jars. Usually I find myself getting storage bins, fans, other size jars, and even other things I may need while I'm out.  :wink:
I'm still gonna see if I can get my ace to ship in some jars for me.

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OfflineBrowser
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16793751 - 09/05/12 05:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Fair enough - at least you know where you can get them.....my days of treking around shops are over....thank goodness for the internet


My brf cakes settled like yours. This time I pressed them down a little...and they only settled by maybe 1/8 inch. I will have to see if they colonize ok. My first 1/2 pint jar batch settled by about 1/4 inch. I expect that your big jars may well settle by 1/2 inch or so.

Edited by Browser (09/05/12 05:09 PM)

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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: Browser]
    #16793949 - 09/05/12 05:33 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Browser said:
Fair enough - at least you know where you can get them.....my days of treking around shops are over....thank goodness for the internet


My brf cakes settled like yours. This time I pressed them down a little...and they only settled by maybe 1/8 inch. I will have to see if they colonize ok. My first 1/2 pint jar batch settled by about 1/4 inch. I expect that your big jars may well settle by 1/2 inch or so.



I order everything online when I can. I can usually find things online for cheaper and I love getting packages in the mail too!
These steam sterilized ones don't appear to have settled at all or at least from what I can tell at the moment, I haven't removed the foil yet.

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OfflineBrowser
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: battypie]
    #16794546 - 09/05/12 07:18 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

There were some interesting replies to a similar settling issue here

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16775289/fpart/1/vc/1


It seems that settling occurs with pc use but not with steaming.

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Offlinebattypie
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Re: Brf jar problems [Re: Browser]
    #16794592 - 09/05/12 07:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Browser said:
There were some interesting replies to a similar settling issue here

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/16775289/fpart/1/vc/1


It seems that settling occurs with pc use but not with steaming.



Yeah, just inoculated a jar and it didn't settle one bit from steaming...

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