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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16781270 - 09/03/12 02:34 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I use the mainstream definition, as found by googling "Define: Money".  I see no reason to appeal to esoteric definitions and generally find that using a mainstream definition helps the conversation move along quickly and lucidly.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: DieCommie]
    #16781290 - 09/03/12 02:39 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
I use the mainstream definition, as found by googling "Define: Money".  I see no reason to appeal to esoteric definitions and generally find that using a mainstream definition helps the conversation move along quickly and lucidly.






So you say you accept the mainstream definition of the word money and give it no second thought, is that correct?

If you are wrong about something absolutely fundamental to economics then you "understanding" of economics becomes completely inaccurate.

If you ignore something fundamental, how can you claim to know anything about the subject matter.

Again, three word Question:


WHAT IS MONEY?


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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16781307 - 09/03/12 02:42 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Definitions cant be wrong, they can be inappropriate maybe.  But in general definitions are all arbitrarily chosen, they are assumed.  There is no such thing as an inherent definition for a word.

I already answered your question.  But I didnt play your silly game, now you are flailing about because your tactic isnt working.  Dont ask me what money is again, I wont answer it again.  If you have anything worthwhile to add, take the time to author a coherent point and I may reply.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: DieCommie]
    #16781351 - 09/03/12 02:49 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Definitions cant be wrong, they can be inappropriate maybe.  But in general definitions are all arbitrarily chosen, they are assumed.  There is no such thing as an inherent definition for a word.

I already answered your question.  But I didnt play your silly game, now you are flailing about because your tactic isnt working.  Dont ask me what money is again, I wont answer it again.  If you have anything worthwhile to add, take the time to author a coherent point and I may reply.





YOU DID NOT ANSWER THE QUESTION LAZY FRIEND!

GOOGLE IT IS NOT A MOTHERFUCKING INTELLIGENT RESPONSE!

The fifth plank of Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto calls for the establishment of a central bank that controls a nation's currency and credit.

How many nations worldwide have exactly that?

NOW WTF IS MONEY.

What is your definition?


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
Posts: 16,337
Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16781482 - 09/03/12 03:21 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

its obvious al is alluding to how resources would be distributed in a commune.

so.. how would they be distributed?

money has always been the way, without it who decides who gets what?


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Shins]
    #16781554 - 09/03/12 03:34 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Your post is simply ignoring past and present societies that operated/operate differently. Regardless of what you may think of the them and their likely lack of technological sophistication, they have existed or did exist for many generations, which meant that they were doing at least some things right (especially  considering it was/is done w/o the aid of modern medicine.


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #16781964 - 09/03/12 04:56 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
Your post is simply ignoring past and present societies that operated/operate differently. Regardless of what you may think of the them and their likely lack of technological sophistication, they have existed or did exist for many generations, which meant that they were doing at least some things right (especially  considering it was/is done w/o the aid of modern medicine.





I think you are ignoring the millions of people who have perished at the hands of communist goon-squads.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16782123 - 09/03/12 05:23 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Actually, i wasn't refering to Communist governments at all. If you read my earlier post, i denounced them for their often severe persecution of those on the left who were pursuing a more socialist arrangment of society via voluntary associations. Are you debating an actual position or a straw man?

Did you know that when the Bolsheviks held a nationwide vote for a parliament, a non-Communist but socialist party (which actually supported socialization of land and other resources, instead of nationalization), with its support base among the peasants, won the elections, so the Bolsheviks then disbanded the body?


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (09/03/12 05:40 PM)


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #16782154 - 09/03/12 05:27 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Communes end up starving to death, look at early Virginia.

Why do you have a prejudice against money?  Do you know what money is indeed?


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16782222 - 09/03/12 05:37 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

One example of failure by European colonialists disregards that more communal oriented socities have existed for hundreds and even thousands of years? Or that such arrangements do exist and always have existed as minorities going against the grain (and often severely persecuted for it, such as various Christan groups in medieval Europe violently repressed by the church/monarchy states)?


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #16782246 - 09/03/12 05:42 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

We exist as individuals.  An individual who is earning for himself is motivated to be a productive individual.  An individual living on a commune is not motivated because they do not see true compensation for their productive activity.

If you are working your ass off and you see some people taking a nap or generally fucking off, do you feel motivated to be productive?


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Offlinepuffpuff23
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16782409 - 09/03/12 06:07 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Anarchist Communism is the most greedy system of all, one must work for the commune for his individual benefit, say the commune is building a trench to defend itself, that individual may help build a trench for the fact that it is protecting him from the invaders as well as the others within the commune.

Look at anarchist catalonia, the free territory of the ukraine, or many other tribal societies that function in this matter, all of which worked out socially, not militarily but on that measure every society that has existed at some point is an example of that systems failures.

No, money doesn't matter, read the links I am going to post very well. Not to mention the fact that many things throughout history were created without motivation for money, look at wikipedia, linux, and open source, do these people have motivation via profit? No. Gift economics have long worked and were put into practice in 1936 in Spain.

http://www.alfiekohn.org/managing/cbdmamam.htm
http://anthro.palomar.edu/political/pol_2.htm
http://libcom.org/library/right-be-greedy-theses-practical-necessity-demanding-everything



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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: puffpuff23]
    #16782426 - 09/03/12 06:09 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

You tell me money does not matter.

You do not know what money is.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16782760 - 09/03/12 07:08 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Those are simply your opinions on society and human nature, and plenty of real world examples demonstrate that these things are not universally true. If you are not even going to try to inderstand anarchism (since you ignored the last thing about it that i posted given your erroneous assertion), then so be it, but i am not aware of any classical anarchist theory where an abled-bodied person who doesn't work is given things (implying some typeof of authority facilitates this) that are taken from the work of another. In fact, nobody can take from the work of one person even to help out a handicapped person (though all classicalist anarchist theories see this as a non-issue due to believing the humanitarian impulse to help the most vulnerable in a community).

P.S. your telling everyone "you don't know what money is" is both childish and annoying.

To puffpuff: no one has to join any kind of a commune if they don't want to. Within a given commune, in all classical anarchist theories that ii am aware of (even communism) there are still material advantages (if desiredi by thethe individual, or course) to working more hours or doing more skilled, dangerous, and/or undesired work.


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (09/03/12 07:15 PM)


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InvisibleShins
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Registered: 09/15/04
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #16782886 - 09/03/12 07:33 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I kindly ask again; in a commune who decides how resources are distributed and how they are used?

again, as al keeps telling you, honest money is the best way to do it. 

otherwise you will either have a dictator for the commune, or maybe a democracy where 49% are slaves to 51%

but hey, as long as you don't force me to join your commune go nuts.


--------------------
http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #16783546 - 09/03/12 09:42 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

A free society is what I would like to see.

Shins is right about that, if you want to join a commune well and good.  That is fine as long as communism is not forced upon civilization.

I keep asking you what money is and you claim this is irritating.  If the question is so easy just answer it.

Tell me what money is.  I will tell you something you might find valuable.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Shins]
    #16783863 - 09/03/12 10:35 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

I pity you if you have never lived and/or worked in an environment with a collaborative spirit whereby people do what they can to achieve a common goal bc they find it worthwhile, but only in an environment whereby everyone is looking for handouts at the expense of others. That being said, in anarchism you are compensated (in whatever form that may take, which can include a type of currency) if you put forth more time in a given work environment than someone else (who perhaps works part time in a commune and is also self employed in another pursuit).


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16783900 - 09/03/12 10:44 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

My definition of money is probably whatever my intro to macroeconomics textbook says, which i don't care to grab at the moment. Regardless, as i stated, some schools of classical anarchist thought do include some form of currency, though i'm not a fan of it personally.

EDIT: should have said "most schools of classical anarchist thought do include some form of currency"


Edited by EntheogenicPeace (09/04/12 12:49 AM)


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OfflineMr.Al
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
    #16783931 - 09/03/12 10:50 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

EntheogenicPeace said:
My definition of money is probably whatever my intro to macroeconomics textbook says, which i don't care to grab at the moment. Regardless, as i stated, some schools of classical anarchist thought do include some form of currency, though i'm not a fan of it personally.





Most Macro is bullshit Keynesian "economics".

Commodity based money is real money.

Currency is fiat, "by decree", money because some assholes say it is.

Commodity money becomes more valuable over time, thus your labor buys more.

Fiat currency, the money Karl Marx called for, becomes increasingly worthless, thus destroying the value of your labor.

Karl Marx was the enemy of the common man.


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InvisibleEntheogenicPeace
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Re: Any Anarcho-Communists/Platformists here? Libertarian Socialists? [Re: Mr.Al]
    #16784088 - 09/03/12 11:24 PM (8 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, i actually don't like fiat currency and wouldn't necessarily have an ideological objection to a form of currency based on something tangible.  I didn't know Marx supported it. Nevertheless, even w/o knowing its history in the u.s., i'm guessing those who got it to be the norm were not Marxists, especially bc don't most bankers and economists support it?


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